Bear with me here.  I don't want to start an uncivilized argument and I don't want to criticize anyone for their beliefs, but I was certainly surprised to see such open condemnation of homosexuality on the boards here.  In my little city of Vancouver, I don't hear much of that.

I was wondering if any of you who feel that homosexuality is wrong, unnatural, or immoral, would like to explain to me why you feel that way.  Again, I'd rather not see this turn into a fight, but as writers I think that we should seek out and try to form an understanding of those viewpoints which are radically different from our own.

For my own part I've never given the morality of homosexuality a second thought.  I was raised to believe that it is completely natural and I do not have any religious beliefs which are relevant to the issue of homosexuality.  I have only one gay friend that I know of but can find no discernible difference between them and their relationships and me and mine.

So please, if you feel like it, do tell.

I'd be really interested to see where this discussion goes.

To start things off on a rather light note (because we should remain as chill about this as possible), I think Mr. Louis CK (one of my favorite comedians) does a good job of highlighting my confusion with this argument.

Be forewarned, the language is a bit rough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6p_aESYqtg

I believe in God, but I do not follow any specific religion, nor do I fully believe in any bible. You could say I'm an agnostic theist of sorts. I just want to make my religious standing clear before I get into this.

Now, let's make another thing clear: there is nothing wrong with gay people. They have no reason to be feared or hated like they are in many places all over the globe. However, I must say that I do not condone the choice [of being gay] in the least.

Let's strip everything down to basic principles, ignoring religion, morals, and absolutely everything else that doesn't have to do with basic survival for any sentient being: what's a human being's purpose in life? Simple --

You are born, you eat, you fuck , YOU REPRODUCE, and you die. Period. Reproduction is the most important here as it is essential to the survival of a species. Gay people, for obvious reasons, can't do this.  They're born, they eat, fuck, die, and what? What did they achieve? What did they do for us, for humanity? Essentially, nothing.

This is where it gets complicated: achievements of personal importance (work, goals, business, etc.) are based on your own perception. I'm not saying gay people don't matter, because I have absolutely no right to say that. Do not misunderstand me -- I'm speaking about basic, natural instincts only, one of which is the instinct to reproduce.

How is homosexuality any more than an anomaly if it overrides your basic instincts? You could argue about overpopulation and think of gay people as  a "nature's birth control" of sorts or come up with countless other theories for their existence, but none of them truly justify it.

If the gay person has a hormonal disorder [which would be out of their control since it is a disease], then it's understandable. Otherwise, I think they are just people who are confused and/or looking for attention. There is no other rational explanation for their behavior.

--Julio  

I've gotta say I too was surprised at some of the comments in that other thread.  I just didn't expect it from a bunch of writers - yep, I know that's a generalisation ...

My personal opinion: I don't give a hoot if you're gay, straight, fat, short, black, white, whatever - I care what kind of person you are. I judge a person by who they are not what sexual orientation they prefer.

Yep, sorry just had to add a bit -  Julio  you said: "You are born, you eat, you fuck , YOU REPRODUCE, and you die. Period."

Whew! I think life's more than that; much more. Those are just our basic innate needs. If we have nothing more to offer than that, nothing distinguishes us from animals. Also, further to what Matt said - does that rationalisation mean that all those unfortunate women who cannot give birth by natural or artificial means "failed in their purpose" to live a purposeful life. IMO, it all get's back to not what sexual preferences you lean towards but how you lead your life - cause you only get one go at it.  

Being gay myself, I'm a pretty big proponent of homosexuality.

Julio,

There are many ways through which gay people can become parents. IVF and surrogacy come to mind, but I'm sure there are others. Perhaps we can't have children as naturally as a man and a woman can, but being gay doesn't "override" our natural paternal instincts. There are many, many gay parents in the world.

And in a general sense (just to expand on what you said) what is the purpose of the human race in the long run? You were right when you said that we are born, eat, fuck, reproduce and then die. But that's all any generation accomplishes. What's the point in continuing with this species if our greatest achievement is simply longevity? Doesn't it seem a bit senseless anyway?

There are many people who choose not to have children, gay or straight, I don't think that's an argument. The human race, as a species, has more to offer the world than merely reproducing itself.

I have no particular religous beliefs, infact, I don't even think I can spell it but I do believe in treating others as you would like to be treated yourself. Any prejudice goes against that belief so I don't have anything against gay people.

I think the comments on the previous thread are exactly what Sacha Baron Cohen tries to create. Ignorance and fear are dangerous things.

This is the genetically closest living animal to man. Pay close attention to the chapter on sexual social behaviour.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

Let me clear my throat...ahem

I don't think the comments in the Bruno thread were particular anti-gay (well, maybe one of the posters there get a little weird), they were more directed at the presentation of gay people - not only by Hollywood, but by gay people themselves (at least the ones I got to read before it was cleaned up.

Where I come from, I think gays are treated pretty much like everybody else with a few exceptions (no church weddings, no adoptions). I understand both of the exceptions but only agree with one of them. Even though I'm not religious in any way, I don't think the church should be forced to bless something that they perceive to be a sin (whether one agrees with that notion or not). I understand the argument for why gays shouldn't be allowed to adopt children but being a straight couple is no guarantee that you're great parents.

I'm not gay so obviously I can't speak about how gays are treated in general but I've never understood the reason for the gay pride parades. Maybe there's someone out there who can explain to me exactly what the point of those parades are. I know a lot of the gays in those parades represent the "extreme" (for a lack of a better word) with the way they dress and act etc. and not the gay comunity as a whole. Is it simply for awareness or is there some other motive for these parades? To me, it comes across as floundering, like "look at how gay we are". What's the point of that? It's just seems weird to me.

I know the world is not perfect yet (cos if it were, there wouldn't be any of you fags around ) but we're getting there I think.

Eating meat is instinct - not eating meat is a decision. Can the same be said about homosexuality? Some would probably say yes but I don't think so. We can't really change how we feel or what we are. We just...are - for better or for worse.

I don't think being gay is wrong (actually I couldn't care less about anyone's sexual orientation), as long as you are a good person then what does it matter? I do have a problem with people who (and this is not specific to the gay comunity) brand anyone who dares to critizise a specific group of people as either homophobes, anti-semitic, racists etc.

All that being said, deep down, I don't think being gay is "normal" though. Yeah, call me old fashion, but I believe the penis and the vagina goes hand in hand everytime. And what the fuck is "normal" anyway? It's a good question and personally I think Malcolm McDowell's character in Star Trek Generations said it best: "Normal is what everybody else is and you're not".

I, personality, think this thread should be deleted if not locked.  There's absolutely no reason to discuss it here unless people want to alienate themselves.

In regards to homosexuals being unable to reproduce, this is a lie.  Being gay means preferring your own sex.  I have a friend who is the father of a ten year old boy; he actually had to go to court to get custody from the mother.  The boy is doing better now than when he was with Mom.

I do not think that homosexuality is a choice.  As a gay riend (who married the above-mentioned guy) says, "Why would I choose to be something that would alienate myself from my family and friends?"

Again, I think this thread should be locked.  It's pretty bigotted.  If you don't believe me, then go back to the original post and substitute the word 'homosexual' with the word 'Jew.'  Or 'black.'  Or 'Hispanic.'  Or whatever group you belong to.


Phil

I don't mean to quote you out of context here, michael, but I just saw that you answered a question of mine in another thread.

Quoted from mcornetto (from the Bruno thread) The gay pride parades have nothing to do with validation.  They are merely there to slap the straight community into recognizing that gay people exist.

Hasn't the cat been out of the bag about gay people for quite a while now? I mean, being gay is not, like, a new phenomenon sweeping the globe. Are those parades really the best way to go about that? I would love to hear The Chismeister's view on those parades.

Quoted from dogglebe I, personality, think this thread should be deleted if not locked.  There's absolutely no reason to discuss it here unless people want to alienate themselves.

Nothing wrong with a good discussion but if anyone gets alienated, doesn't that just prove that, deep down, we're all bigots one way or the other?

Believing in GOD and believing in the entire BIBLE I can only say one thing. GOD loves everyone. Gay or straight. We all come up short. Love the sinner, not the sin.

LED....

Quoted from sniper I would love to hear The Chismeister's view on those parades.

I think they were important once upon a time. Like Cornetto said, they were a slap in the face to the straight community. We're here, we're queer, get used to it and all that.

Times are different now and I personally don't see the point of them. Sexual orientation either way is nothing to be either proud or ashamed of. It's not like by being gay I've somehow accomplished something that straight people haven't. That has never made sense to me. I don't really know what "gay pride" means.

The parades are fine, the floats and the bright costumes and what not. Sure they attract a certain element of negativity, but being a minority that's unavoidable no matter what we do. As long as people are having a laugh, it's all good. But you're not gonna find me in one of those things.

anybody notice the GAY CRUISE banner in the middle of the page? Funny Don....VERY FUNNY....

SHAWN....><

I would rather be stranded on a deserted island with a bunch of gays and lesbians that were nice people than a bunch of straight assholes. Being a nice person is number one for me.

What I don't like however is when someone gets in my face and insist that I "have to" accept them. That goes for homosexuals that do so, but other groups as well, Christians, Muslims or whatever. In other words, don't try to tell me how I should think.

In regards to us humans reproducing, did anyone read the study that said in 100 000 years there will be no males. Why? they just want be needed anymore...

Nobody is arguing...