Could someone explain to me why so many people post their scripts on this site and then cry when people critique them? Is that not one of the points of this site?

Because they don't want critiques of their work which will help them grow and improve as a writer. All these people want is the egos stroked and for everybody to share the same delusion that they seem to have, which is  that their script is the best thing EVER written.

Or to put it simply... to waste our time

Or they may just want their scripts available to filmmakers, but not necessarily feedback from forum members...

Quoted from Grandma Bear Or they may just want their scripts available to filmmakers, but not necessarily feedback from forum members...

Except over half of these scripts would never be produced, because in their current shape they are not good!

A person's ego is strong. Watch Revolver and you'll see what I mean.

Gabe

Quoted from Pants Could someone explain to me why so many people post their scripts on this site and then cry when people critique them? Is that not one of the points of this site?

I wasn't aware that this problem was such an epidemic on the boards, but after awhile you figure out who's looking for feedback and ways to improve their writing, and those who simply don't care.  You'll probably find certain authors whose work you enjoy as well, and will give them a little more leeway down the line if you don't care for one of their stories.

Outside of that, some people get pissed because the feedback that's left is just plain shitty.  And I mean quality wise, not rudeness.

Quoted from Shelton I wasn't aware that this problem was such an epidemic on the boards, but after awhile you figure out who's looking for feedback and ways to improve their writing, and those who simply don't care.  You'll probably find certain authors whose work you enjoy as well, and will give them a little more leeway down the line if you don't care for one of their stories. Outside of that, some people get pissed because the feedback that's left is just plain shitty.  And I mean quality wise, not rudeness.

I'm referring to the people who receive really good constructive criticism and whine like babies. The bottom line is, if their scripts were so great they wouldn't be posting them on this site. They'd be selling them to Hollywood producers. As for your comment about the ones looking for feedback, I assumed that's why people posted their scripts here. If not fine, but then there should be a special place for those scripts to get posted. We can call it the "I don't care what you think if my master piece so don't bother reading it section." How about that? I know...brilliant idea!

All should be treated equally. It takes some time to learn to differentiate btw the two groups, but not mcuh.

Gabe

I might have mentioned this earlier but one way of combing out those "don't care" scripts would be for Don not to create a message board thread for the scripts submitted by people that don't fill out the message board nickname when they submit their script.

The scripts would still be posted on the main site of course but it'll save some members the time of writing a review that the writer won't read anyway.

Quoted from Pants Except over half of these scripts would never be produced, because in their current shape they are not good!

That is your opinion, but perhaps not the author's...

The people who receive good criticism and whine like babies, well, now you know that they whine like babies when they receive good criticism, so you can check them off of your authors to read list.

How do you know people aren't attempting to pitch their scripts to Hollywood producers while their on this site?  Yes, it's a terribly wrong thing to do since the script is most likely nowhere near ready, but it happens.

Most people do post their scripts for feedback, which is why I said earlier that I wasn't aware that the "whiny asses" had become such an epidemic.

Most likely nobody would flag their script in the "I don't care" section.  Case in point, Mr. & Mrs. Black.  The author started out with something along the lines of "any feedback is appreciated" and it quickly went south after that, assumingly when he wasn't told how great it was.

If you're worried about people being non-receptive to feedback, pay attention to the author.  Are they a member here?  Do they participate regularly?  Things like that can go a long way toward reducing your "grief".

Another option is to look at the "Simply Recommended Scripts" thread.  A high percentage of the scripts there are by members open to feedback.

I'd include the link, but the board is a little slow loading for me at the moment.

Quoted from sniper I might have mentioned this earlier but one way of combing out those "don't care" scripts would be for Don not to create a message board thread for the scripts submitted by people that don't fill out the message board nickname when they submit their script. The scripts would still be posted on the main site of course but it'll save some members the time of writing a review that the writer won't read anyway.

That's kind of a tough one because some people don't notice the board right away, but sign up after submitting their script.

The username is usually included in Don's initial script posting, except in cases where the names are the same (me, Cindy, George, Zack, and Guy to name a few), but I've gathered that a lot of people kind of miss that since I've seen people complain about someone leaving feedback for someone that's not around, then turn around and do that exact same thing the very next day.

Quoted from Shelton That's kind of a tough one because some people don't notice the board right away, but sign up after submitting their script.

I understand where you're coming from, Mike, but it's really an easy fix. "All" Don has to do is make a little pop-up message that tells the one submiting the script, that if they want to give other board members the oppotunity to review the script then they must have a message board profile.

What about if they do sign in and then don't respond or review? I think people do this: sign up, submit scripts, and never come back.

Gabe

I didn't say it was perfect, Gabe - just a step in the right direction.

One of the things I like about MoviePoet is that it tells you how many scripts that user has reviewed.

If there's a way to do that here, it would let us know how many people are here to help. It'd weed out the good guys from the bad.

(For the record, I've reviewed 111 over on MP )

Quoted from ABennettWriter One of the things I like about MoviePoet is that it tells you how many scripts that user has reviewed. If there's a way to do that here, it would let us know how many people are here to help. It'd weed out the good guys from the bad. (For the record, I've reviewed 111 over on MP )

While it's not entirely the same thing, you can check out a members posts in their profile. That'll at least give you a little info about who you're dealing with.

Quoted from ABennettWriter One of the things I like about MoviePoet is that it tells you how many scripts that user has reviewed. If there's a way to do that here, it would let us know how many people are here to help. It'd weed out the good guys from the bad. (For the record, I've reviewed 111 over on MP )

You can look at a person's posting history via their username.  A new person could have only 10 posts, but they might all be script reviews.

No I get you Rob. I think the method now is fine. Every script a person reviews simply helps that screenwriter improve. And for those who don't review, their easy to tell from those who do read so, we should refrain from commenting on their scripts.  We don't need people to sign up to weed out reviewers.

Gabe

Quoted from Grandma Bear That is your opinion, but perhaps not the author's...

Apparently since I haven't seen any of these gems on the big screen, I'm not the only one with that opinion. Any person on this website who will not take constructive criticism to better their work and actually believes they wrote the next oscar winner is absolutely delusional!!!

Quoted from Pants This person was the inspiration behind the creation of this thread.

Oh, you should've checked out Alien5Writer then. Mama mia...

Quoted from sniper Oh, you should've checked out Alien5Writer then. Mama mia...

Heh, I remember him.  Not sure if I got in on the action with him (can't remember that far back properly) but I definately remember that he was.. lets say bad.

True I may not be the best reviewer in the history of this site but I do try my best. I just have great difficulty putting my feelings in words. I know if I like or dislike something but it is hard for him to articulate these feelings.  But at least I try and that must count.  

Personally I feel the best kind of crits and reviews to help you grow as a writer are the ones that tell you what you are doing wrong as these point out the areas which need fixing.

Quoted from Shelton You can look at a person's posting history via their username.  A new person could have only 10 posts, but they might all be script reviews.

I've seen people with twenty posts or more and they haven't reviewed any scripts.  They review movies, music and join in on the anything-but-screenwriting threads.

I've also seen people with ten or fifteen posts who only post in threads for their scripts.


Phil

Quoted from Pants Could someone explain to me why so many people post their scripts on this site and then cry when people critique them? Is that not one of the points of this site?

I've had people ask me to review their scripts and get nasty when they don't receive positive reviews.  I can only guess that they don't like the fact that I disagreed with the praise their mothers bestowed on their work.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe I've seen people with twenty posts or more and they haven't reviewed any scripts.  They review movies, music and join in on the anything-but-screenwriting threads. I've also seen people with ten or fifteen posts who only post in threads for their scripts. Phil

Yes, Phil, I'm aware of this.  I just didn't feel it was necessary to lay out every possible scenario in getting my point across.

I'll try it in Frankenstein-speak

Point...check...history

I submitted a script once and got also sorts of suggestions about what was wrong with it and what should be done to make it better etc. So I followed some of the suggestions and did a few rewrites. Then one day, somebody, who hadn't commented on the thread, sent me a pm and said: "I’ve been following this thread and have watched your script get progressively worse. Don't listen to these people they have no idea what they're talking about. The changes they’ve suggested have ruined what made the story good in the first place.”

So I guess it can be confusing sometimes. However, just as writers shouldn’t be too precious about their scripts, reviewers shouldn't be too precious about their reviews, and get upset if a writer says: "Thanks for the read, but I won’t be making the changes you’ve suggested”.

Yeah I somewhat agree with you Chris.  People should at least read reviews and thank the people who took the time to sit down and look at their "masterpiece" whether they ultimately decide to use any of the suggestions provided or not.

Of course if these suggestions are to spell things properly and you decide not to listen then I don't see you getting very far.

That's interesting Chris. I've never heard of that happening before.

Pants keep telling us we don't write anything worth being filmed by Hollywood here so we should take any critique we can get, but we're not professional reviewers here either...

Personally I listen to all criticism, good or bad, but only change if the suggestions feel right to me.

Yeah it was, Me. The guy ended up offering me some suggestions of his own. I took some of them on board and discarded the rest.

The majority of comments I've received have been regarding format and story structure - I don't think you can go wrong listening to this sort of advice and changing your script based on it.

When people are giving you different ideas - like a better ending or changing a character's personality then I guess you gotta decide for yourself. It's your script at the end of the day so you can't let it become a communal project.

I really don't understand people reacting badly to honest reviews of scripts they have posted on here.

Quoted from Grandma Bear That's interesting Chris. I've never heard of that happening before. Pants keep telling us we don't write anything worth being filmed by Hollywood here so we should take any critique we can get, but we're not professional reviewers here either... Personally I listen to all criticism, good or bad, but only change if the suggestions feel right to me.

Glad someone finally mentioned that. True we do see some people who have been thin skinned, bristling at the first negative comment, but - how encouraging can it be to see comments on your work like "this script sucks, everything in it was dumb, man I tried to read it but couldn't, it's stupid and it sucks".  Not exactly the way to encourage a fellow writer.  There's a way to be good and constructive and ,then there's just negative commentary.  And it's too easy to go on the attack when someone does bristle at feedback, which is counter productive for everyone.

Quoted from mikep I tried to read it but couldn't.

But sometimes that's the truth if it is very badly written with spelling and grammar mistakes in every line and no attempt made at all to stick to standard scriptwriting format despite there being great software out there, some of which are free (Celtx for example), then that kind of response is quite valid.

Of course it should be backed up with reasons why you found it difficult / impossible to read along with some hints / tips on how to improve (get a dictionary or use the spell checker being good ones)

Quoted from Gaara But sometimes that's the truth if it is very badly written with spelling and grammar mistakes in every line and no attempt made at all to stick to standard scriptwriting format, despite there being great software out there, some of which are free (Celtx for example) then that kind of response is quite valid. Of course it should be backed up with reasons why you found it difficult / impossible to read along with some hints / tips on how to improve (get a dictionary or use the spell checker being good ones)

Right - I agree. There have been a few instances where I've had to throw in the towel before finishing reading a script, but also a few with horrendous formatting, spelling, where I stayed until the bitter end ( and I admit playing my part in the "Warrior" thread which became just a shameless free for all ...well not that shameless).  But a concern is  seeing more reviews that are just lists of negative points without being actually helpful. Some read more like an assault than a review.

I received the following pm a while back after criticizing a script:

Quoted Text dogglebe, dont be jealous that you didnt come up with the idea first. We all know that u havent had any big writing credits that people have had a fit over like Welsey has had with his 2 series. So if you want to bash anyone on their writing, do it to your self and some of your bad writing.

Phil

Yikes. Someone was a Gloomy Gus that day.

Quoted from mikep Yikes. Someone was a Gloomy Gus that day.

Methinks he was a little low on potassium.


**Sorry, inside joke**

And let's not forget Phil's and JD_OK's banter over Newton's Cradle. Another discussion that was better than the script in question.

Quoted from sniper And let's not forget Phil's and JD_OK's banter over Newton's Cradle. Another discussion that was better than the script in question.

Now that one I do remember.  I remember reading and reviewing that script only fro JD to turn around and tell me that I had not read it and was just repeating what others were saying.  True some of what I said might have been said previously but if people keep mentioning certain things then those things must be a major problem that really stands out.

That is the main reason I have never reviewed anything else by him. Well that and I don't think I have seen anything else by him.

Quoted from Grandma Bear That's interesting Chris. I've never heard of that happening before. Pants keep telling us we don't write anything worth being filmed by Hollywood here so we should take any critique we can get, but we're not professional reviewers here either... Personally I listen to all criticism, good or bad, but only change if the suggestions feel right to me.

Why do you keep lumping yourself in with the bad writers of which I speak? There is no reason for you to get defensive. If you would like me to review something of yours, by all means PM me. I'd be more than happy to review your work.

Quoted from mikep Yikes. Someone was a Gloomy Gus that day.

They are not gloomy gusses. They are bad writers who write bad scripts, but they think they're the sh** because mommy tells them so. Dogglebe has proven the point.

The bottom line is this....you can have someone tell you that your script sucks and here's how to fix it or you can have a producer throw it in the trash and never take the time to tell you how to improve. Personally, I would take door number one.

You said earlier (forgot where exactly) that no scripts on this site was good enough to be produced by Hollywood.

I took offense to that because you basically seemed to think that everything here is crud. Maybe I misunderstood you. That's always a posibilty. IMHO, there's more to film than Hollywood and Don has said many times that at least once/month he is asked by an author to remove a script due to it having sold/optioned/produced (whatever). I have also read hundreds and hundreds of scripts here, produced and unproduced. Some have been really good too.

I do not lump myself in with bad writers. I don't lump myself in with anyone. I write for fun mostly. I have no illusion. that anything I write will be produced by Hollywood. Even if I was a brilliant writer, sheer numbers would make it hard to be produced by Hollywood. Less than two hundred films produced every year and over 50 000 NEW scripts registered yearly.

My comment about us not being professional reviewers is true too. Some do a better job than others, but "professional" means someone who gets paid to do so. We are all pretty much "friends" here. Lets try to help each other both as writers and reviewers.

Quoted from Grandma Bear You said earlier (forgot where exactly) that no scripts on this site was good enough to be produced by Hollywood. I took offense to that because you basically seemed to think that everything here is crud. Maybe I misunderstood you. That's always a posibilty. IMHO, there's more to film than Hollywood and Don has said many times that at least once/month he is asked by an author to remove a script due to it having sold/optioned/produced (whatever). I have also read hundreds and hundreds of scripts here, produced and unproduced. Some have been really good too. I do not lump myself in with bad writers. I don't lump myself in with anyone. I write for fun mostly. I have no illusion. that anything I write will be produced by Hollywood. Even if I was a brilliant writer, sheer numbers would make it hard to be produced by Hollywood. Less than two hundred films produced every year and over 50 000 NEW scripts registered yearly. My comment about us not being professional reviewers is true too. Some do a better job than others, but "professional" means someone who gets paid to do so. We are all pretty much "friends" here. Lets try to help each other both as writers and reviewers.

Here's the post that you are referring to:

"Except over half of these scripts would never be produced, because in their current shape they are not good!"

So yes, you did misunderstand. For whatever reason you have taken this very personal and I'm not sure why. Never once was any of this directed at you. Did you even read the "comedy" script that sparked this whole thread? I'm guessing not.

Quoted from Pants They are not gloomy gusses. They are bad writers who write bad scripts, but they think they're the sh** because mommy tells them so. Dogglebe has proven the point.

I proved this?  How?

Quoted from Gaara That is the main reason I have never reviewed anything else by him. Well that and I don't think I have seen anything else by him.

I think JD has only written that one script, but he's revised it five or six times.


Phil

Maybe we should start having The Review of the Month award. We could have a sticky thread where all the winning reviews get placed. It'd be a good way to show  examples of what a good review should look like, as well acknowledging those who make the effort to give decent reviews.

How about a review guide / template?  Something like

REVIEW OF (insert title) by NAME

Opening Thoughts:
what drew you to the script?

Plot:
Discuss the plot here. This includes plot holes, missing or magically appearing characters, the use of a Deus Ex Machina (if one is used) and any other thing related to plots

Characters and Dialogue:
Discuss characters and their dialogue here. What did you like or dislike about the characters? How do you think they spoke? Believable or Wooden? Was the lead character interesting enough to carry the film? If it is a horror / monster movie then the villain / monster can be discussed here as well

Errors in Format:
what was right or wrong with the scripts format? Was there any spelling or grammar mistakes? If so were they just a few or a seemingly never ending barrage of them?

Closing Comments:
What did you think about the script overall? Can you suggest ways to make it better? What would you add or leave out if you had written it?


(and for a laugh how about a STAR rating out of 10?)

How would we decide the best reviews?

And is anyone really interested in the best reviews?  While I think it's wrong to right a script that just reads, "This blows goat balls," I would avoid a script where ten people wrote such reviews.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe How would we decide the best reviews? And is anyone really interested in the best reviews?  While I think it's wrong to right a script that just reads, "This blows goat balls," I would avoid a script where ten people wrote such reviews.

Who would decide? Don, a moderator, whoever. I'd read a review it was awarded review of the month. It'd also be bit of extra publicity for the script. Win-win.

We can't and we shouldn't.

Everyone has a different way of writing a review. Some people like Abe are totally amazing... would he win every month? I have got a LOT of reviews by now and I value the short honest ones as much as I value the really long ones. As long as I feel people are being honest, I think they are all equally important. Someone took the time to read something of mine even though they may not speak/read English really well or find it hard to write a review.

That in itself means something to me.

What does that have to do with awarding the month's best review?

I'm concerned with scripts, here, not reviews (unless they're reviews to my own scripts).  Reading the best reviews in the world will not make me want to read a script.  


Phil

If people aren't concerned about reviews, why is there so much moaning and groaning about them on threads like this?

If you had a review of the month thread, the next time people started talking about what constitutes a good review you'd have a point of reference.

Quoted from Takeshi What does that have to do with awarding the month's best review?

When new members especially, would see Abe's reviews winning every month or so it may discourage people from trying to write one. Thinking "Gee I can't do that".

Have you seen some of his reviews? Look at his dissection of The Farm for example. Besides, it would require "the judge" to read every single review.

I remember not long ago, someone posted on here that they'd be happy to review anyone's script. As far as I know, there were no takers. Why? I don't know, but perhaps people were not that impressed with his reviews. In other words, if you hang out here long enough, it becomes apparent who tries and who doesn't.

There are some people, here, that I look forward to a review.  And then there are others whom I wouldn't want a review from.  In part, it's because I don't want to read his/her script in return.  But there's also those who write in a fashion that borders illiteracy.  It's as if they're texting their reviews in from their blackberry.

This is not a board where you should be lazy with your writing.

Phil

Quoted from Grandma Bear Have you seen some of his reviews? Look at his dissection of The Farm for example. Besides, it would require "the judge" to read every single review.

That is a very good point.  

Just like we get new screenwriters here, we get new reviewers.  People grow in their reviewing just like they grow in their screenwriting.  What is pretty unique about SS is that you can actally respond to a review and not only clarify their comments but help the reviewer grow.  Just like their review is helping you grow as a screenwriter.

It's all give and take. That's the beauty of it.  I see no reason to complain about it.

Just a little side note:  a writer, who shall go unnamed, is asking for help on his script only a day after the Great Spring Clusterfuck was cleaned up.


Phil

Awarding a "best review" seems unnecessary - I think everyone - if you're the writer being reviewed, or someone just reading the review, should see the lack of value in "your script sucks, this is stupid" then that mantra just repeated with slight variations.

Had a discussion in the chat room yesterday with someone who admitted they have a hard time writing reviews, getting their thoughts into words. But even a long winded, slightly fumbling review ( or a short one) is preferred to "this is dumb".  Yes - hopefully a  good writer here will take good feedback and grow, but no one is going to learn anything from lazy, non-constructive reviews. There's no need to award a good review, as bad reviews are going to do in the reviewer in the long run.

Quoted from Grandma Bear I remember not long ago, someone posted on here that they'd be happy to review anyone's script. As far as I know, there were no takers. Why? I don't know, but perhaps people were not that impressed with his reviews. In other words, if you hang out here long enough, it becomes apparent who tries and who doesn't.

I'm assuming that you are referring to me. I posted a message like that a few months back. My PM in box was filled with requests. I took the time to read all of those scripts and gave fair and true reviews. Please do not speak of things you know nothing about.

If you are not referring to me, please disregard my above comment.

Quoted from dogglebe I proved this?  How?

By posting the pm you received from some cry baby.