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The only thing I really wanted to pick up on was Dressel's Q re: what actually bothers people about PDAs from gay men. Also, why is there a chasm between what feelings that evokes and that of lesbians? No discernible reason was provided, and this speaks volumes - perhaps 'cos there - quite frankly - is nothing wrong with it. Cornetto eloquently listed the oppression that has been felt by gay men for long swathes of history, and decadence's articulation of plausible explanations for straight men to be offended - by way of an actual scientific exploration - was most satisfying to me from a writing perspective.
Parades - what's the big deal?
Jeff, I know you were talking about it being "in your face", but in principle, is a parade any different from your irregular proclamations of having a girlfriend? Sure, there is a wealth of difference in scale, but ultimately both are proud declarations of how a person feels - what's wrong with that? You quite clearly stated that you have no problems with gay men, so that's cool. I think your comments appeared quite gruff, and no nonsense, which is how you are as a person, so naturally this issue filtered through that lens is likely to yield that type of response. That's cool, 'cos you appear to have no bigotry.
Jammin, well, I think I see what your point is - you are asking why society categorises homosexuality, young/old and incestuous behaviour in different ways, right? That's a valid question, but I think you inherently believe homosexuality to be wrong, which colours your question. Therefore you are lumping all of those behaviours into some level of perversion of the normal - heterosexuality. Why is heterosexuality the norm, or viewed as the norm? I guess it's down to reproduction, but we're hardly an endangered species. Martin Rees - a superb Cosmologist - gave a recent lecture in London where he suggested the worldwide population could reach 9 billion by 2050 - we need to reduce the population, so why is homosexuality wrong? To me, that growth in population suggests there is no natural evolution in place to determine homosexuality wrong.
My personal stance is that consent and welfare should permeate all levels of this discussion. Consensual sex between men/men or women/women is something that cannot be questioned aside from a level of bigotry or religious musing, IMO. I know others disagree, but I have never seen a compelling argument as to why.
Finally, I have to agree with Cornetto that pairing up homosexuality and that of paedophiles is not a fair comparison. Sure, the point Jammin made was that we have two historically persecuted groups - so one must now be accepted 'cos it's marketed better. I'm sorry, I am going to have to call bullshit on that - I would suggest it's down to humans evolving, and finding it increasingly difficult to rationalise persecution against two proponents of love. Love is beautiful thing, whether it be between men/women, men/men or women/women - there would appear to be a deficit of love in a wider societal context, so why demonise it based on who the proponents are - that's my opinion.
The age of consent and its complexities as to what constitutes a loving relationship in that realm would need a thesis, 'cos it's far too large an area to be carved up on a message board.
Andrew
Andrew, you're seeing this from a "romantic", emotional POV. Also bear in mind that our environment/culture have conditioned us differently. What you see as "love", I see in an entirely different way. No, I do not see "adult consent" as being a strong argument against the other sexual fringes. A number of factors intersect. No, I do not see homosexuality as being above any of the other sexual fringes. And yes, it's marketed extremely well. Look at the difference in popular view of homosexuality in the early to mid 90's as compared to now. You and I will have to agree to dissagree on this issue.
I think Matt's entitled to his opinion. Like Seamus, I don't agree with his stance on beastiality. Here in Denmark, where I'm from, bestiality is, for some reason, legal. I don't understand that since, again like Seamus said, an animal can't consent.
Regarding incest among consenting adults...hmm, that's a tougher one. Personally, the mere thought of it makes my stomach churn. Like canabalism, incest is one of the major taboos in the civilized part of the world. I think it's disgusting and wrong but when it happens between two consenting adults then I guess I just have to accept it - it's none of my business and not my problem.
I'm sorry to see that this discussion about homosexuality has spiralled into a discussion about paedophilia, incest and beastiality - as if it's related.
Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
I'm sorry to see that this discussion about homosexuality has spiralled into a discussion about paedophilia, incest and beastiality - as if it's related.
Well, incest is clearly related, and if you ask any Darwinist, they'll tell you we're related to the beasts. Haha.
Anyway, the correlation was going to be inevitable for the obvious reason that they're all sexually related and for that matter, taboo among certain peoples, just as homosexuality still is in some areas.
And just to point out one further tidbit, both bestiality and incest are included in that list in Leviticus I mentioned earlier that has homosexuality in it along with the other fun activities that the original Israelites would take you out for: child sacrifice to pagan gods, medium consulting, bad-mouthing your parents, adultery, marrying a woman and her mother, sex during a woman's period, and marrying your sister-in-law.
I wonder who many reads a script called Homosexuality would get?
Back onto topic. Personally I believe in freedom and liberty, something many goverments and plenty of people seem to have forgotten about.
As far as I know people have no choice in what their sexual preference is. Sure, there are plenty who dabble because of peer pressure, culture or whatever but the gays I've met aren't gay because it's a choice, they're gay by nature.
The heterosexuals so offended by homosexuals are, in my humble, either scared, insecure or just being plain old macho. Somewhere deep inside they think hating gays somehow makes them more of a man. Alas, it's not the 1950s.
The thing that scares them the most is the one they won't admit. They don't understand, and therefore fear, that two people of the same sex can love each other. That's the one that really freaks them out.
I wonder who many reads a script called Homosexuality would get?
Back onto topic. Personally I believe in freedom and liberty, something many goverments and plenty of people seem to have forgotten about.
As far as I know people have no choice in what their sexual preference is. Sure, there are plenty who dabble because of peer pressure, culture or whatever but the gays I've met aren't gay because it's a choice, they're gay by nature.
The heterosexuals so offended by homosexuals are, in my humble, either scared, insecure or just being plain old macho. Somewhere deep inside they think hating gays somehow makes them more of a man. Alas, it's not the 1950s.
The thing that scares them the most is the one they won't admit. They don't understand, and therefore fear, that two people of the same sex can love each other. That's the one that really freaks them out.
Well, incest is clearly related, and if you ask any Darwinist, they'll tell you we're related to the beasts. Haha.
What’s a Darwinist? The Theory of Evolution has far more evidence to support it than your superstition. In fact, a shred of evidence is more than you have for God’s existence.
And on the subject of morality, it makes more sense for morality to derive from logic than the “moral” code of primitive Bronze Age tribesmen who raped, murdered, and stole their way into power.
Genesis 7 - God murders every newborn and unborn infant on Earth with a deluge.
Exodus 12: 29-30 - God murders the first born son in every house in Egypt.
Leviticus 26:21-22, God says, “I will send wild animals against you, and they will rob you of your children.”
Numbers 31 - the Midianite massacre - all male children murdered and the virgins kept as slaves by order of Moses.
Deuteronomy 3:3-7 - “We completely destroyed them,…every city—men, women and children.
2 Kings 2:23-24 - God sends two bears to maul 42 youths for the petty crime of making fun of the “prophet” Elisha’s bald head.
In 1 Samuel 15:2-3, the “prophet” Samuel says, “put to death men and women, children and infants,…”
In Isaiah 13:15-18, the “prophet” Isaiah says, “infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes.”
In Ezekiel 9:3-7, the “prophet” Ezekiel says, “Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children.”
In Hosea 9:11-12, God says, “Even if they rear children, I will bereave them of every one.”
In Hosea 13:16, God says, “The people of Samaria must bear their guilt, because they have rebelled against their God. They will fall by the sword; their little ones will be dashed to the ground, their pregnant women ripped open."
Real “moral.” Getting your morals from the biblical God is like getting them from Satan. No wait, scratch that. Satan is nowhere near as evil as God.
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