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You seem to be confusing trans-gendered people (or more correctly people with Gender Identity Disorder) with homosexuals.
These are people essentially born in the wrong body IE they have male parts but think/feel they are really female and vice versa. It's a related, but different topic.
They don't consider themselves gay as such, but straight and just stuck in the wrong body (although there are some confusing exceptions to that general rule).
The cross gender thing is also up for debate. You can read one of my posts up top that speaks to how environment can feminize a male(or masculinize a female)...
The cross gender thing is also up for debate. You can read one of my posts up top that speaks to how environment can feminize a male(or masculinize a female)...
Do you have proof that it's all just environment? You seem pretty certain. I read a book about a boy who, after an accident to his privates, was raised a girl. It didn't work for him, he was born a genetic male and acted like it no matter what he was told and the Dr. kept lying saying he was happy being a girl.
here's a wiki about it
"During his professional life, Money was respected as an expert on sexual behavior, especially for allegedly demonstrating that gender was learned rather than innate. Many years later, however, it was revealed that his most famous case was the result of fraudulent reporting on the part of Money. The subject of Money's fraud was his involvement in the sex reassignment of David Reimer, in what later became known as the "John/Joan" case. Money reported that he successfully reassigned Reimer as female after a botched 1966 infant circumcision. In 1997, Milton Diamond reported that the reassignment had failed, that Reimer had never identified as female or behaved typically feminine. At age 14, Reimer, who had fought against being forced to see Dr. Money since age 7, refused to see Money again, threatening suicide if he were made to go. Reimer's parents then decided to tell Reimer the truth about his past, and biological sex. Reimer immediately ended the hormone treatments he had been forced to undergo to stimulate female sex traits, and began hormones to bring about the male puberty prevented by the removal of his testes by Dr. Money. He ceased using the name, Brenda, that his parents had chosen for him after he began treatment with Dr. Money, and chose a new name, David, for himself. At 15, with a different medical team, he sought a mastectomy, testosterone therapy and a phalloplasty. Later he married a woman who had children from a previous marriage and lived as a man until his suicide at age 38.[3]
Money continued to publish that his work with Reimer was a "success" even 30 years later in various publications. In 2000, David and his twin brother alleged that Dr. Money had taken numerous naked photos of the twins during their treatment, and forced them to engage in "sexual play" at age 7. In 2003, his brother was found dead from a drug overdose. This deeply disturbed David, who visited his brother's grave 4-5 days per week. In 2004, upon being told by his wife of her intention to separate, Reimer committed suicide. Reimer’s parents have stated that they believe Dr. Money's treatment bears responsibility for the deaths of both their sons. [4]"
The cross gender thing is also up for debate. You can read one of my posts up top that speaks to how environment can feminize a male(or masculinize a female)...
Both I and Andrew have already countered that claim.
Doctors accidentally cut off a boys penis during childbirth. Under the influence of a Doctor who believed that the behaviour of the sexes was just a learnt process and a matter of hormones, they turned him into and raised him as a girl.
He was finally told by his parents what had happened after spending his life wondering why he felt abnormal. He never recovered though and evetually killed himself. A terrible story.
Even by physcially making a male into a girl and raising them as one and injecting female hormones into them after birth, they'll still be a male if that's how they were born. However you are created in the womb is how you'll come out. Whether that's 100% straight or a little bit of everything. Of course you can choose what to do or not do, that's your human privilege, but your feelings and orientation may be beyond your control.
Now, within the structure of how you are born there are possibilities and avenues of choice, but the limits are kind of set in your brain.
Something else to consider is that what we consider right or wrong is largely arbitary. It's just rules we've placed on ourselves. People marry 8 year old girls and have sex with them in some countries. Dogs frequently try and have sex with humans, being blissfully unaware of the laws we have against such things.
Many of the issues that we worry about are just pure fabrications and are just the side effect of us creating laws to dictate our behaviour.
I started reading it awhile back and never finished due to lack of time. It's a very complex book. I really should get back to reading it, as it's a very fascinating story that in great detail goes through the rise of the AIDS epidemic in the 80's.
THat's funny. I was looking for that last time I was in the book store, but they didn't have it. Hopefully I'll remeber it after I finish what I'm reading now.
While I agree with some of what you've said - you are contradicting elements yourself.
How can a boy grow up lacking a male identity? What is a male identity? Do males grow up in noticeably similar ways for a reason? If so - which is what you suggest - then there must be some natural, pre-birth coding. Otherwise, why is certain behaviour classified as 'male' or 'female'?
As with most things, the answer lies somewhere in-between. Nature and nurture play a role.
The tests you cite are an example of psychological and anthropological investigations that really only scratch the surface - interesting as they are.
Also, it's a very simplistic notion to suggest that gay men are simply yearning for a male figure, who was missing in their early life. It's plausible, but not likely, IMO. That really undervalues the worth of true love that is evident between homosexuals.
Andrew
Andrew, there is no gray area between what is male and what is female biologically speaking. xx chromosome is female, xy is male. Testosterone does a lot of things that sharpens the physical distinction. Males are generally bigger, stronger, faster runners, higher jumpers, with deeper voices, muscular, more hair, more aggressive, than females. Those things are physical. Sex is physical but sexuality is a social construct. Hunting, gathering, protecting one's domestic domain, are social but based on biology. Women nurture, which is social but also based on biology.
When a boy, say Michael Jackson, for argument's sake, is at the age of five or six and has to work and become an adult before he reaches adulthood, lacks that mental guide and expression of fatherly love, never experience true childhood(not having to be carefree or social, but instead, have to work and be business savvy) , when he becomes an adult he will revert to what he lacked. He will want to hang around children and be a boy again, he will not have the social tools available to him to foster certain adult relationships.
To you, this may sound like it's devaluing "love" among homosexuals, but I'm looking at it from a less romanticise perspective and a more practical one. What is love, if it isn't a yearning to fill a specific void. To realize a need? Please remember that we are very social animals...
Do you have proof that it's all just environment? You seem pretty certain. I read a book about a boy who, after an accident to his privates, was raised a girl. It didn't work for him, he was born a genetic male and acted like it no matter what he was told and the Dr. kept lying saying he was happy being a girl.
here's a wiki about it
"During his professional life, Money was respected as an expert on sexual behavior, especially for allegedly demonstrating that gender was learned rather than innate. Many years later, however, it was revealed that his most famous case was the result of fraudulent reporting on the part of Money. The subject of Money's fraud was his involvement in the sex reassignment of David Reimer, in what later became known as the "John/Joan" case. Money reported that he successfully reassigned Reimer as female after a botched 1966 infant circumcision. In 1997, Milton Diamond reported that the reassignment had failed, that Reimer had never identified as female or behaved typically feminine. At age 14, Reimer, who had fought against being forced to see Dr. Money since age 7, refused to see Money again, threatening suicide if he were made to go. Reimer's parents then decided to tell Reimer the truth about his past, and biological sex. Reimer immediately ended the hormone treatments he had been forced to undergo to stimulate female sex traits, and began hormones to bring about the male puberty prevented by the removal of his testes by Dr. Money. He ceased using the name, Brenda, that his parents had chosen for him after he began treatment with Dr. Money, and chose a new name, David, for himself. At 15, with a different medical team, he sought a mastectomy, testosterone therapy and a phalloplasty. Later he married a woman who had children from a previous marriage and lived as a man until his suicide at age 38.[3]
Money continued to publish that his work with Reimer was a "success" even 30 years later in various publications. In 2000, David and his twin brother alleged that Dr. Money had taken numerous naked photos of the twins during their treatment, and forced them to engage in "sexual play" at age 7. In 2003, his brother was found dead from a drug overdose. This deeply disturbed David, who visited his brother's grave 4-5 days per week. In 2004, upon being told by his wife of her intention to separate, Reimer committed suicide. Reimer’s parents have stated that they believe Dr. Money's treatment bears responsibility for the deaths of both their sons. [4]"
Is wikipedia the new gospel? You do know that anyone(yourself included) can edit a wikipedia page in anywhich way he/she pleases, right?
as soon as debate reach a point where we might have to start using our wits instead of emotions, people say, "close the thread!". Well close it, I got stuff to do anyways, I'm getting dressed to go somewhere...
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