Quoted from Mr Blonde I'm an athiest. I never tell anyone what to believe.

Sean -

I have absolutely no problems with atheists. Good luck to you! I did not say that all atheists are bigots.

Your attitude is commendable and I too will talk to Mormon's and Witnesses (yes, they do come door to door here) about their religion - as you say, there is no need to be rude to people who mean well, whatever your opinion of them (and mine is pretty low).

It may have escaped everyone's attention, but I never actually stated my religious beliefs here - my point was that you cannot blame everything on religion, but have to accept that it is people who pervert beliefs for their own ends, whether based on a bible or a scientific text.

Anyway, I'm off again.

Quoted from Niles_Crane Sean - I have absolutely no problems with atheists. Good luck to you! I did not say that all atheists are bigots. Your attitude is commendable and I too will talk to Mormon's and Witnesses (yes, they do come door to door here) about their religion - as you say, there is no need to be rude to people who mean well, whatever your opinion of them (and mine is pretty low). It may have escaped everyone's attention, but I never actually stated my religious beliefs here - my point was that you cannot blame everything on religion, but have to accept that it is people who pervert beliefs for their own ends, whether based on a bible or a scientific text. Anyway, I'm off again.

And, the only problem I had with what you said, wasn't even a problem. Plenty of athiests, from my experience, are bigots in a religion-based sense. Maybe I was upset because I was wrong. I don't like being wrong. =)

I'll try harder next time.

-Sean

Quoted from sniper Can we go back to the homosexuality thread then

What about the "Could an Atheist ever be President" thread. That was a humdinger.

Perhaps we should start the "Could a Pro-Life Homosexual Atheist ever be President" thread.     

For the sake of discussion and what this thread was actually started about, there's a key difference that separates Scientology from the rest and it's not the ideology. Information on every other religion is available to the public to access and interpret as they choose. Scientology withholds information (or tries to anyway) and makes its members pay before they have access to its services.

Quoted from Niles_Crane my point was that you cannot blame everything on religion, but have to accept that it is people who pervert beliefs for their own ends, whether based on a bible or a scientific text.

I don't like to get involved in these sorts of threads but I do follow them for the sake of curiosity and I have to say this is the smartest thing I've read so far. The way I see it, anytime people with a common goal/belief try to organize on a mass scale, it's to the detriment of the rest of society because so many people take things too seriously and can't, for the life of them, respect someone else's opinion.

Quoted from James McClung The way I see it, anytime people with a common goal/belief try to organize on a mass scale, it's to the detriment of the rest of society because so many people take things too seriously and can't, for the life of them, respect someone else's opinion.

What about trade unions? If it wasn’t for them a lot more people would be working under appalling conditions and for less money.

I had the same thought as James. When people collect themselves into groups, especially groups that believe themselves to be the holders of some sort of "truth," be they religious or political -- as for politics, communists come to mind -- there is a danger that they will attempt to foist that "truth" upon others.

If a group doesn't allow for it's beliefs to be questioned, then in my opionion, it's best to stay away from said group.

What about when people organize on a mass scale to raise funds for people who are starving or have been the victims of a natural disaster?

But I get the gist. As one dude said on another site "It's all too easy for people whose "eyes are opened" to one set of dogma to fall right into another set of dogma and look for new transgressors to punish".

Quoted from Takeshi What about when people organize on a mass scale to raise funds for people who are starving or have been the victims of a natural disaster?

The difference is, in such cases, like Katrina, the help doesn't come with strings attatched. No one is saying, "we'll help you IF... fill in what ever IF you want, be it religious or politcal.

Most people simply want to help others. Bravo to them! But some people, if they help you, they have expectations that you, in the end, being helped by them, will further their cause. They want you to convert... and if you don't, they might cut off what ever help they offer.

Wanted to add, nice to see you again Chris : )

Quoted from Seth I had the same thought as James. When people collect themselves into groups, especially groups that believe themselves to be the holders of some sort of "truth," be they religious or political -- as for politics, communists come to mind -- there is a danger that they will attempt to foist that "truth" upon others. If a group doesn't allow for it's beliefs to be questioned, then in my opionion, it's best to stay away from said group.

Seth,

Very good. We're getting into a n interesting part here because what I've learned is that:

We can't stay away from

"Our groups"... Like you guys here. I can't stay away from you for better or for worse. Why? I don't know. Except that I feel a family vibe that I can't explain.

I'll share some of my studies today with you.

Today it was the Hebrew letter, Nun.

As you know, everything in Life has it's polar opposite which gives us our feeling of reality.

Here, with the letter Nun, we deal with two properties that are very resourceful to us and if we acknowledge them, we will feel how they teach us.

Norah Tehilot is associated with "great praises". It comes from the letter Nun and yet:

So too does:

Nefilah, which means "fall" and also exists within Nun...

Have you heard the saying that

"Pride comes before the fall?"

You probably have, but more importantly, if you've witnessed it in your life, then you really can relate.

I know it's a digression, but with regard to your words on "groups"...

We truly are "one" group. We might have all kinds of different quirks and quarks, but we are truly the same. The best thing is that our "apparent" differences are such blessings.

Can any of us imagine a world where everyone is just like ourselves, believing in exactly what we believe in, having the same personality traits? Truly...

If we think about it, that would be a very boring world.

We are very lucky indeed.

Sandra

Quoted from Takeshi What about the "Could an Atheist ever be President" thread. That was a humdinger. Perhaps we should start the "Could a Pro-Life Homosexual Atheist ever be President" thread.

Doubt I could : )

Quoted from Sandra Elstree. We truly are "one" group. We might have all kinds of different quirks and quarks, but we are truly the same. The best thing is that our "apparent" differences are such blessings. Can any of us imagine a world where everyone is just like ourselves, believing in exactly what we believe in, having the same personality traits? Truly... If we think about it, that would be a very boring world. We are very lucky indeed. Sandra

Yea. I think we're all basically the same. We all want the same things. To be loved, accepted, understood.

And I appreciate differences. I'm learning too, anyway. This is all on an individual basis though.

When people collect themselves, and think they know what's best for everyone, then we turn into warring Baboons.

That's how I see it, anyway.

And nice to see you too Sandra : )

Quoted from Sandra Elstree. They are constantly involved in an ideological war, trying to pervert humanity's progress. Dec, You are a sweetheart, in my mind, but I'm going to take your quote and run with it... *** The early portion of your words: ...but when Religion becomes a huge structure it becomes harmful in my opinion, It seems the problem is: That it's NOT religion that is this huge structure that is becoming harmful right now-- but rather "secularism". We live in a world of limits. I mean: where twenty degrees Celsius is comfortable. Religion imposes laws and limits. If we don't like them, then that's our problem. Which hearkens back to what you've said: ...but when Religion becomes a huge structure it becomes harmful in my opinion, My question is: What is the harm in "Structure"? My inner feeling is that "Religion" isn't the problem, but it's "Secularism"-- that is the problem. When we reject the consideration for boundaries, then we reject life. Why? Because life is built on the basis of polarities and that means we must have opposites. In this world, we need both religion and secularism; therefore there exists no argument in actuality, but only in virtuality. Sandra

Secularism is the problem?

No offence, but no way. The greatest thing about modern life is the belief that Religion should be separated from Government.

It means that decisions can be made on evidence, logic, reason and compassion and not on the tenements of some medieval literature that's been changed throughout time beyond all recognition and sense.

I understand where you are coming from regarding conflict creating new ideas. The problem is Religion does not change, it does not present new ideas. All it does is try to drag things back to their particular Dogma.

It's like a 2000 year old millstone hanging round everybodies necks.

We are continually having to relive the same fights over and over again, instead of moving on with intelligent Government.

The great irony is that Secularism follows "God's Law" better than most Religions. It allows for tolerance and says that discrimination cannot take place on Religious grounds.

To quote Jesus:

"Then give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's" (Although like all religious Doctrine, you can interpet it however you want).

Ultimately secularism allows the very debate you say is so important. It allows everybody to have their say and debate what should be done, it also allows people of differing faiths and beliefs to live together as equals. It's just that you need to put forward intelligent, considered reasons rather than "The Frog Monster told me".

Ultimately, regardless of Religion/structure/whatever, Dogma is bad.

It means that you are entrenched in a view and can't change with reason or logic.

The peculiar danger with religion is that it is not only Dogmatic (particularly Monotheistic Religion), it also grants the follower the belief that their view is backed by a Divine Power. A very dangerous and potentially explosive mix as we have seen in history and in the very recent past.