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Hmmmmmmm I wonder if this movie will be as fair and just as his last film, I'm sure he won't take any sides.
Why would he not take sides? He's quite openly a left-wing liberal. So I guess he would be taking the left-wing liberal view.
I'm not a big Michael Moore fan, because he's too much of a liability for the left. He's easy to debunk and has been caught being dishonest; there's no way mainstream society could embrace the idealogy of someone like that.
But take Noam Chomsky, now there's a freaking left-wing warrior. Respect.
The bible was radically changed by King James in order to be used as tool for control. He put his own prejudices in his version, one of which were his anti-homosexual sentiments. The ancient society that wrote the original documents did not have a word for homosexual, nor did they even have the same concept of homosexuality as we currently do. Any passages regarding homosexuals were a later addition.
I doubt OT verses regarding homosexuality were added, addendum-like, to the text. In any case, while the OT doesn't use the word 'homosexual', it does say, as I'm sure you know, that a man is not to to lie with a man as he does a woman. To do so is described as an abomination. I, of course, disagree. I believe homosexuality to be normal.
What ever the case, it's my understanding that the Jewish people, at the time, were an aggressive pastoral nation, bent on population growth and territorial conquest. They believed sex was to be for procreation and procreation only. One couldn't even "spill their seed" so to speak.
As an aside, I believe as Breanne does -- sex has more to do with bonding than reproduction.
Seth
PS Just a quick note to better explain my position. I believe the Bible, the OT in particular, to be so replete with principles, precepts and practices that I find repugnant -- that I doubt King James found it necessary to add still another one.
BTW, I am not trying to offend anyone -- just stating my position.
Will this be like an extended version of that "Awful Truth" episode where he profiled Fred Phelps?
I mean for all I care my friend could say I want to be a chick and I wouldn't care. But is Moore really the right person for this issue? Hell, if I got bored I'd get a sex change.
Oh and in the bible, gays were called sodomites, after Sodom and Gamor, I beleive. Sodomy among men was an act mention as being condemmed by God as perversion. Appearently, it was added during I beleive the sixth century or so.
Seriously, he’s an awesome documentary filmmaker. I understand his passion. Unfortunately, one just shouldn’t let their passion blind them. Passion is meant to fuel people, not to possess them. Sadly, Michael Moore allows himself to resort to unethical practices to achieve the same result he could achieve fairly and honestly.
I don’t believe money motivated him early on. I believe with Roger & Me he was genuinely trying to do something special. And I think he did. I don’t know whether he wanted money, or fame, or what, but yes, he’s definitely not fair and balanced anymore.
I'm pro-gay rights but seriously don't see the point of such a documentary. He's not gonna convince anyone who's already against homosexuality so in effects it's just gonna be a long progressive back-patting session...
As for the bible and homosexuality, my understanding is that Christians often refer to Sodoma and Gomorrah where the so-called "Sodomites" are often taken to mean "homosexuals".
Quoted Text
But before they lay down, the men of the city, [even] the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Gen 19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said [again], This one [fellow] came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, [even] Lot, and came near to break the door.
Gen 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that [were] at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
Gen 19:12 � And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring [them] out of this place:
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
However, this is a very debated fact as is evident here:
BUT even if we concede that this passage is inherently anti-homosexual, my understanding of the new Testament and Christ's teachings has always been, and this is the general view of Christianity in Denmark, I believe, that when Jesus came and died for our sins he made salvation possible through one simple precept: Accepting Jesus Christ as our savior and son of God. Effectively making many of the laws of the old testament obsolete, including Sabbath and...well stoning of adulterous women.
But I'm not a Christian, so perhaps someone else could shed some light on this?
Personally, it's a real stretch for me to believe that the a supreme being who created ever galaxy, every star, every black hole, every nucleus of existence, would care about how people love each other. Further than that I don't believe in a God that CAN be offended. Or angry. Those are human traits. And if there is a God, I'm absolutely positive in my mind that he's nothing like us.
"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."
If God created gay people and then condems them. Isn't that just kind of like a fucked up God? Think about it. He knows they can never love the opposite gender. Isn't that terrific?
If God created gay people and then condems them. Isn't that just kind of like a fucked up God? Think about it. He knows they can never love the opposite gender. Isn't that terrific?
Really, that's kind of flawed.
Chrisitan argument: Free will. Being gay is a choice, not something you're born with. Thus did God not create gay people, gay people chose to be gay.
For the record, I don't believe this, but that's their argument.
"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."
Chrisitan argument: Free will. Being gay is a choice, not something you're born with. Thus did God not create gay people, gay people chose to be gay.
For the record, I don't believe this, but that's their argument.
Speaking of free-will, I suspect it doesn't exist -- with respect to sexuality or any other aspect of human nature. In any case, I've yet to hear a convincing argument in its favor.
Still, I only 'suspect' ...cuz such a question can't, in my opinion, be resolved. Not definitively. There are simply too many variables, too much data to assess.
In a previous comment, you mentioned Denmark. kierkegaard believed that a God could create individuals who could exercise free-will. My question is, if such an entity existed, one that, by definition, would be all-knowing -- wouldn't that render the question of free-will moot?
By this I mean, if a God knows, in advance, what we are going to do, can we do anything but that? Can we do anything different from what this "God" already knows we're going to do? If not, then there isn't a "god."
I thought this movie was about gays not bible belters, seems kinda weird, all the Christians I know support gay rights,
Your experiences aside, there are many Christians who do not support gay rights. This is a fact. One that is easily evidenced. That religion, in general, has condemned gay people is incontrovertible. If you've evidence to the contrary, please present it.
The reality is, gay people have been and continue to be persecuted by religious fanantics -- especially in the US. They, at every turn, attempt to curtail the civil rights of gay people -- basic human rights that involve empoyment, housing, health insurance, and marriage -- everything that hetrosexuals take for granted.
If you believe that Christians, save liberal ones, support gay rights, you're mistaken.
Well, I guess you can say that homosexuality is obviously not naturally right as the human race would be extinct if everyone was a homosexual. Which means that it must not have be meant to be something we should do when the pointless accident that is our universe and world, as well as our lives, happened.
-Chris
Homosexuality could be nature's way of not overpopulating. We have a global food shortage (as well as other resources). If all the homosexuals were straight, and breeding, we'd have that many more to provide for.
I guess I know the wrong Christians, man I sure know the wrong people I should get to know more stereo types, hell what about my gay friend who is a christian, guess i gotta end that relationship , can't have that now. I need to find the hateful ones, I'm sure there are a lot in my town considering i live in the bible belt of the world.
*note to self* find hateful friends
anyways this movie shouldn't be just about christians who hate gays, cause there are a lot of non christians that hate gays as well, knowing Michael Moore, I'm sure it won't, but like I said before, if it has hot girls having sex I'm there .
Your posts, being replete with homophobia, speak for themselves. BTW, many racists claim to have a "black friend." I'm not impressed.
Still, if you care to engage in an actual debate, please present something that's cogent, something that's addressable.
Speaking of free-will, I suspect it doesn't exist -- with respect to sexuality or any other aspect of human nature. In any case, I've yet to hear a convincing argument in its favor.
Still, I only 'suspect' ...cuz such a question can't, in my opinion, be resolved. Not definitively. There are simply too many variables, too much data to assess.
In a previous comment, you mentioned Denmark. kierkegaard believed that a God could create individuals who could exercise free-will. My question is, if such an entity existed, one that, by definition, would be all-knowing -- wouldn't that render the question of free-will moot?
By this I mean, if a God knows, in advance, what we are going to do, can we do anything but that? Can we do anything different from what this "God" already knows we're going to do? If not, then there isn't a "god."
Seth
That's the creationist argument against atheism.If everything is random and we are predisposed by our heritage and genes, then there is no free will, and if there's no free will then man cannot choose good or evil.
Consider the question: Why is it wrong to kill? The social pragmatics aside, why would an atheist believe it to be wrong to kill, when he is neither given divine commandments that specifically state it to be wrong, or have to fear reprisals in the after life?
I don't believe in God, but have a very strong sense of what is right and wrong anyway. Where does it come from? I did not choose to have them, so are they intrinsically encoded in me or delivered to me by way of society's norms?
Your point of the illusion of free will in Christianity is something I've often debated with my Christian friends. Because fate, by definition, renders free will void, because if I were to be told my destiny, I could change it. If there is a point and a place where I WILL end up no matter what I do, then there is no free will, only different paths to it.
The Christian counter-argument that I've encountered says: Well you have free will, but God already knows how you're gonna use it. And that's kinda difficult to argue with.
By the way, I have no gay friends.
Well, I do but not in the, you know, sexual-orientation way...
"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."
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