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What’s next for the controversial documentary filmmaker? According to SlashFilm, he'll cover the topic of Homophobia.
The following is taken from a conversation Moore had with The Advocate:
Quoted Text
I think it’s a very ripe subject for someone like me to make a movie about. Simply because we are not there yet and it remains one of the last open wounds on our soul that we are not willing to fix yet,” Moore told The Advocate. “There is nowhere in the four Gospels where Jesus uses the word homosexual.’ The right wing has appropriated this guy … and they have used him to attack gays and lesbians, when he never said a single word against people who are homosexual. Anyone who professes to be a Christian and does that is certainly not following the teachings of Jesus Christ.
Though earth and man are gone, I thought the cube would last forever. I WAS WRONG.
Not starting anything, but the Bible does say something against homosexuality. Not the Gospels themselves, but there is a verse against it elsewhere.
I won't post it, because I'll probably get banned. But I just thought I'd point that out there, that if Moore wants to criticize people for not following the teachings of Christ in that respect, he needs to get his facts straight.
Again, not starting anything and I don't want to go against any homosexuals on this board for my own sake. ha ha. But I was just pointing out the flaw in his statement.
The bible was radically changed by King James in order to be used as tool for control. He put his own prejudices in his version, one of which were his anti-homosexual sentiments. The ancient society that wrote the original documents did not have a word for homosexual, nor did they even have the same concept of homosexuality as we currently do. Any passages regarding homosexuals were a later addition.
Well, I’m not a huge fan of Michael Moore. I do think it’s long overdue for people to just get over the issue of homosexuality. The facts support homosexuality. It’s a fact that people engage in sex for purposes other than having children. It’s a fact that homosexuality exists even in the animal kingdom. A male dog dry humping another male dog isn’t stupid. He knows he’s humping another male.
Honestly, religion can die now or die later. But it’s fate is essentially sealed. People have to wake up eventually. You can only reinforce a delusion for so long before you have to admit that reason and logic don’t support it.
Our time will be judged by the stands we take today. When we look back at people in history, we see that a lot of people were amazingly ignorant. But we also see that a few were astonishingly enlightened. If people today want to be the people who are looked back upon in the future as enlightened, they’ll get over homosexuality and move on. If people want to be looked back upon in the future as ignorant stubborn control freaks, they’ll continue to hold up progress under the mantle and guise of whatever bigoted belief system they were raised with that condemns homosexuality.
As I always say, the world progresses kicking and screaming. Progress is slow and people are afraid of change. Little can be done to prevent the world of our time from being looked back upon as generally ignorant. Future people will almost certainly see us that way. But those of us who are inspired in a genuine search for truth may at least be granted the privilege of having our future judges view us as ahead of our time.
Well, I’m not a huge fan of Michael Moore. I do think it’s long overdue for people to just get over the issue of homosexuality. The facts support homosexuality. It’s a fact that people engage in sex for purposes other than having children. It’s a fact that homosexuality exists even in the animal kingdom. A male dog dry humping another male dog isn’t stupid. He knows he’s humping another male.
Honestly, religion can die now or die later. But it’s fate is essentially sealed. People have to wake up eventually. You can only reinforce a delusion for so long before you have to admit that reason and logic don’t support it.
Our time will be judged by the stands we take today. When we look back at people in history, we see that a lot of people were amazingly ignorant. But we also see that a few were astonishingly enlightened. If people today want to be the people who are looked back upon in the future as enlightened, they’ll get over homosexuality and move on. If people want to be looked back upon in the future as ignorant stubborn control freaks, they’ll continue to hold up progress under the mantle and guise of whatever bigoted belief system they were raised with that condemns homosexuality.
As I always say, the world progresses kicking and screaming. Progress is slow and people are afraid of change. Little can be done to prevent the world of our time from being looked back upon as generally ignorant. Future people will almost certainly see us that way. But those of us who are inspired in a genuine search for truth may at least be granted the privilege of having our future judges view us as ahead of our time.
Breanne
Woah. That is the greatest post in the history of SimplyScripts.
Well said, Breanne. I agree with absolutely everything you said 100%.
I will say that "religion" is not the belief in truth, but the belief in a certain thing or way of life by a group of people. So, by believing there IS nothing apart from us, that makes that a religion. So religion will never die based on the human definition of it.
Secondly, I've never read the original Bible text, Mcornetto, and neither have you. I've seen no proof of your statement and will need a lot of it to change the belief my life has been founded on.
I'm not going to get in a fight about whether or not homosexuality is wrong or right. I have my beliefs but I'm not going to spread them around here because they seem to offend people.
One thing I don't like is that I'm not able to say that homosexuality is wrong on this board and that it is a sin against God. But posters are able to say that religion will die one day and that those who believe in it are ignorant. I don't like the fact that my belief and lifestyle can be called a delusion but I can't say homosexuality is wrong.
I will say that "religion" is not the belief in truth, but the belief in a certain thing or way of life by a group of people. So, by believing there IS nothing apart from us, that makes that a religion. So religion will never die based on the human definition of it.
Secondly, I've never read the original Bible text, Mcornetto, and neither have you. I've seen no proof of your statement and will need a lot of it to change the belief my life has been founded on.
I'm not going to get in a fight about whether or not homosexuality is wrong or right. I have my beliefs but I'm not going to spread them around here because they seem to offend people.
One thing I don't like is that I'm not able to say that homosexuality is wrong on this board and that it is a sin against God. But posters are able to say that religion will die one day and that those who believe in it are ignorant. I don't like the fact that my belief and lifestyle can be called a delusion but I can't say homosexuality is wrong.
Anyway, I'm through before I get banned again.
-Chris
Chris, you can say you believe homosexuality is wrong as far as I’m concerned.
Your definition of religion however is very flawed. It seems as though you got it from Christian apologists. They routinely try to paint science as faith and religion. However, that’s simply not true. A fact is simply a fact. It has nothing to do with belief.
The Bible was written thousands of years ago by unknown authors. I’m sorry but placing absolute faith in any book written thousands of years ago by unknown authors and repeatedly translated throughout the ages simply doesn’t stand up to logic. So yes, I would say that qualifies as ignorant.
Statistics show the average Christian has never even read the Bible. I have read it. I was a very devout Christian at the time and still it was quite a daunting task. If people really believed in the Bible as they claimed, they would read the whole thing - and they would practice it. Of course, practicing it could become quite ugly as it’s quite a vicious and violent book that demands some extremely brutal and barbaric behavior.
Chris, I’m sorry if what I said offended you. It’s a fact however that millions of people place 100% faith in a book written thousands of years ago by unknown authors - a book they themselves have never even read - and yet those people refuse to admit even the slightest possibility that they may be wrong.
That people have sex for reasons other than having children is a fact. It’s not something I made up. Nor is it my belief. Hence, it’s not my religion. Just as it’s a fact that homosexuality exists in the animal kingdom and has existed among humans for all of humanity. I didn’t make that up. It’s not my belief. It’s just a fact.
Well, I guess you can say that homosexuality is obviously not naturally right as the human race would be extinct if everyone was a homosexual. Which means that it must not have be meant to be something we should do when the pointless accident that is our universe and world, as well as our lives, happened.
Whether or not these posts on this thread will be deleted remains to be seen.
Well, this is nixon's board, and he specifically asked me not to delete anything while he is out at the movies -- probably watching something godless, too -- as is his wont.
You are doing fine, Chris -- not even treading close to banned-land haha.
But Don practices tolerance -- and has little truck for slurs -- on or off the boards. Just something to keep in mind.
Some people have complained that too often the Mods jump in and shut down "adult" conversations. I've been a little more hands-off lately, and I think some of the other guys have been, too.
Well, I guess you can say that homosexuality is obviously not naturally right as the human race would be extinct if everyone was a homosexual. Which means that it must not have be meant to be something we should do when the pointless accident that is our universe and world, as well as our lives, happened.
-Chris
Chris two things:
1) No one made any mention of how the universe began so please don’t try and sidetrack the real issue by dragging another contentious issue into the arena.
2) Yes, homosexuality could threaten the human race - if everyone were homosexual. But we both know they’re a small minority of the population. In fact, percentages of homosexual behavior in the human species are consistent with percentages of homosexual behavior in the animal kingdom. The animal kingdom is well reputed for its survival instincts. If homosexuality threatened the survival of the animal kingdom, it certainly wouldn’t exist there.
Also, as I’ve already pointed out, sex is not only practiced for the purpose of procreation. You’re going to have a tough sell with that one. And I suspect that when you’re old enough and start a family of your own, you may even find yourself having sex…just for fun.
Homosexuals are ordinary people just like you or I, Chris. They’re not the evil monsters they’ve been painted out to be. They’re just a minority. They love like you. They feel like you. They want to experience intimacy with someone they love and are attracted to - just like you. They have no more control over who they love than you have. If you’ve ever been in love, Chris, you will have experienced the wonder and power of the feeling we call love. And someday, you’ll want to experience the expression of that love sexually. Homosexuals only ask people to recognize that their love is as real and valid as anyone else’s.
Yes, there are homosexuals who are promiscuous or don’t care about love. So are some heterosexuals. There are also homosexuals who genuinely love each other and only ask to be allowed to express it without fear of retribution.
Just remember; what you’re saying is that no one should ever have sex except to procreate.
1) No one made any mention of how the universe began so please don?t try and sidetrack the real issue by dragging another contentious issue into the arena.
No one every said anything about sex or how it's just supposed to be for producing babies, either. So stop sidetracking.
I don't think sex is JUST for that. I believe it can be something a married couple do for "fun" or whatever. ha ha.
And since when did being a homosexual couple mean sex for no reason? And how did our debate come to that?
-Chris
Oh my goodness!!! I posted again. I'm offended by myself. I'm NEVER coming back to this thread again. Ever.
Well, I guess you can say that homosexuality is obviously not naturally right as the human race would be extinct if everyone was a homosexual.
Here you’re implicitly stating that homosexuality is not right because it does not allow for procreation. Hence, you are stating that procreation is your reason why homosexuality is wrong.
Though I fancy myself a moderate and support gays, Michael Moore tends to rub me the wrong way. I liked Bowling for Columbine, but I can't stand how he is more of a propagandist then a filmmaker.
I mean he makes entertaining films, but it's twisted facts, not truth. Moore is a good spin doctor. Even if you agree with him, you have to admit that he does make one-sided films.
Hmmmmmmm I wonder if this movie will be as fair and just as his last film, I'm sure he won't take any sides.
Why would he not take sides? He's quite openly a left-wing liberal. So I guess he would be taking the left-wing liberal view.
I'm not a big Michael Moore fan, because he's too much of a liability for the left. He's easy to debunk and has been caught being dishonest; there's no way mainstream society could embrace the idealogy of someone like that.
But take Noam Chomsky, now there's a freaking left-wing warrior. Respect.
The bible was radically changed by King James in order to be used as tool for control. He put his own prejudices in his version, one of which were his anti-homosexual sentiments. The ancient society that wrote the original documents did not have a word for homosexual, nor did they even have the same concept of homosexuality as we currently do. Any passages regarding homosexuals were a later addition.
I doubt OT verses regarding homosexuality were added, addendum-like, to the text. In any case, while the OT doesn't use the word 'homosexual', it does say, as I'm sure you know, that a man is not to to lie with a man as he does a woman. To do so is described as an abomination. I, of course, disagree. I believe homosexuality to be normal.
What ever the case, it's my understanding that the Jewish people, at the time, were an aggressive pastoral nation, bent on population growth and territorial conquest. They believed sex was to be for procreation and procreation only. One couldn't even "spill their seed" so to speak.
As an aside, I believe as Breanne does -- sex has more to do with bonding than reproduction.
Seth
PS Just a quick note to better explain my position. I believe the Bible, the OT in particular, to be so replete with principles, precepts and practices that I find repugnant -- that I doubt King James found it necessary to add still another one.
BTW, I am not trying to offend anyone -- just stating my position.
Will this be like an extended version of that "Awful Truth" episode where he profiled Fred Phelps?
I mean for all I care my friend could say I want to be a chick and I wouldn't care. But is Moore really the right person for this issue? Hell, if I got bored I'd get a sex change.
Oh and in the bible, gays were called sodomites, after Sodom and Gamor, I beleive. Sodomy among men was an act mention as being condemmed by God as perversion. Appearently, it was added during I beleive the sixth century or so.
Seriously, he’s an awesome documentary filmmaker. I understand his passion. Unfortunately, one just shouldn’t let their passion blind them. Passion is meant to fuel people, not to possess them. Sadly, Michael Moore allows himself to resort to unethical practices to achieve the same result he could achieve fairly and honestly.
I don’t believe money motivated him early on. I believe with Roger & Me he was genuinely trying to do something special. And I think he did. I don’t know whether he wanted money, or fame, or what, but yes, he’s definitely not fair and balanced anymore.
I'm pro-gay rights but seriously don't see the point of such a documentary. He's not gonna convince anyone who's already against homosexuality so in effects it's just gonna be a long progressive back-patting session...
As for the bible and homosexuality, my understanding is that Christians often refer to Sodoma and Gomorrah where the so-called "Sodomites" are often taken to mean "homosexuals".
Quoted Text
But before they lay down, the men of the city, [even] the men of Sodom, compassed the house round, both old and young, all the people from every quarter:
Gen 19:5 And they called unto Lot, and said unto him, Where [are] the men which came in to thee this night? bring them out unto us, that we may know them.
Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him,
Gen 19:7 And said, I pray you, brethren, do not so wickedly.
Gen 19:8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as [is] good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.
Gen 19:9 And they said, Stand back. And they said [again], This one [fellow] came in to sojourn, and he will needs be a judge: now will we deal worse with thee, than with them. And they pressed sore upon the man, [even] Lot, and came near to break the door.
Gen 19:10 But the men put forth their hand, and pulled Lot into the house to them, and shut to the door.
Gen 19:11 And they smote the men that [were] at the door of the house with blindness, both small and great: so that they wearied themselves to find the door.
Gen 19:12 � And the men said unto Lot, Hast thou here any besides? son in law, and thy sons, and thy daughters, and whatsoever thou hast in the city, bring [them] out of this place:
Gen 19:13 For we will destroy this place, because the cry of them is waxen great before the face of the LORD; and the LORD hath sent us to destroy it.
Gen 19:14 And Lot went out, and spake unto his sons in law, which married his daughters, and said, Up, get you out of this place; for the LORD will destroy this city. But he seemed as one that mocked unto his sons in law.
However, this is a very debated fact as is evident here:
BUT even if we concede that this passage is inherently anti-homosexual, my understanding of the new Testament and Christ's teachings has always been, and this is the general view of Christianity in Denmark, I believe, that when Jesus came and died for our sins he made salvation possible through one simple precept: Accepting Jesus Christ as our savior and son of God. Effectively making many of the laws of the old testament obsolete, including Sabbath and...well stoning of adulterous women.
But I'm not a Christian, so perhaps someone else could shed some light on this?
Personally, it's a real stretch for me to believe that the a supreme being who created ever galaxy, every star, every black hole, every nucleus of existence, would care about how people love each other. Further than that I don't believe in a God that CAN be offended. Or angry. Those are human traits. And if there is a God, I'm absolutely positive in my mind that he's nothing like us.
"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."
If God created gay people and then condems them. Isn't that just kind of like a fucked up God? Think about it. He knows they can never love the opposite gender. Isn't that terrific?
If God created gay people and then condems them. Isn't that just kind of like a fucked up God? Think about it. He knows they can never love the opposite gender. Isn't that terrific?
Really, that's kind of flawed.
Chrisitan argument: Free will. Being gay is a choice, not something you're born with. Thus did God not create gay people, gay people chose to be gay.
For the record, I don't believe this, but that's their argument.
"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."
Chrisitan argument: Free will. Being gay is a choice, not something you're born with. Thus did God not create gay people, gay people chose to be gay.
For the record, I don't believe this, but that's their argument.
Speaking of free-will, I suspect it doesn't exist -- with respect to sexuality or any other aspect of human nature. In any case, I've yet to hear a convincing argument in its favor.
Still, I only 'suspect' ...cuz such a question can't, in my opinion, be resolved. Not definitively. There are simply too many variables, too much data to assess.
In a previous comment, you mentioned Denmark. kierkegaard believed that a God could create individuals who could exercise free-will. My question is, if such an entity existed, one that, by definition, would be all-knowing -- wouldn't that render the question of free-will moot?
By this I mean, if a God knows, in advance, what we are going to do, can we do anything but that? Can we do anything different from what this "God" already knows we're going to do? If not, then there isn't a "god."
I thought this movie was about gays not bible belters, seems kinda weird, all the Christians I know support gay rights,
Your experiences aside, there are many Christians who do not support gay rights. This is a fact. One that is easily evidenced. That religion, in general, has condemned gay people is incontrovertible. If you've evidence to the contrary, please present it.
The reality is, gay people have been and continue to be persecuted by religious fanantics -- especially in the US. They, at every turn, attempt to curtail the civil rights of gay people -- basic human rights that involve empoyment, housing, health insurance, and marriage -- everything that hetrosexuals take for granted.
If you believe that Christians, save liberal ones, support gay rights, you're mistaken.
Well, I guess you can say that homosexuality is obviously not naturally right as the human race would be extinct if everyone was a homosexual. Which means that it must not have be meant to be something we should do when the pointless accident that is our universe and world, as well as our lives, happened.
-Chris
Homosexuality could be nature's way of not overpopulating. We have a global food shortage (as well as other resources). If all the homosexuals were straight, and breeding, we'd have that many more to provide for.
I guess I know the wrong Christians, man I sure know the wrong people I should get to know more stereo types, hell what about my gay friend who is a christian, guess i gotta end that relationship , can't have that now. I need to find the hateful ones, I'm sure there are a lot in my town considering i live in the bible belt of the world.
*note to self* find hateful friends
anyways this movie shouldn't be just about christians who hate gays, cause there are a lot of non christians that hate gays as well, knowing Michael Moore, I'm sure it won't, but like I said before, if it has hot girls having sex I'm there .
Your posts, being replete with homophobia, speak for themselves. BTW, many racists claim to have a "black friend." I'm not impressed.
Still, if you care to engage in an actual debate, please present something that's cogent, something that's addressable.
Speaking of free-will, I suspect it doesn't exist -- with respect to sexuality or any other aspect of human nature. In any case, I've yet to hear a convincing argument in its favor.
Still, I only 'suspect' ...cuz such a question can't, in my opinion, be resolved. Not definitively. There are simply too many variables, too much data to assess.
In a previous comment, you mentioned Denmark. kierkegaard believed that a God could create individuals who could exercise free-will. My question is, if such an entity existed, one that, by definition, would be all-knowing -- wouldn't that render the question of free-will moot?
By this I mean, if a God knows, in advance, what we are going to do, can we do anything but that? Can we do anything different from what this "God" already knows we're going to do? If not, then there isn't a "god."
Seth
That's the creationist argument against atheism.If everything is random and we are predisposed by our heritage and genes, then there is no free will, and if there's no free will then man cannot choose good or evil.
Consider the question: Why is it wrong to kill? The social pragmatics aside, why would an atheist believe it to be wrong to kill, when he is neither given divine commandments that specifically state it to be wrong, or have to fear reprisals in the after life?
I don't believe in God, but have a very strong sense of what is right and wrong anyway. Where does it come from? I did not choose to have them, so are they intrinsically encoded in me or delivered to me by way of society's norms?
Your point of the illusion of free will in Christianity is something I've often debated with my Christian friends. Because fate, by definition, renders free will void, because if I were to be told my destiny, I could change it. If there is a point and a place where I WILL end up no matter what I do, then there is no free will, only different paths to it.
The Christian counter-argument that I've encountered says: Well you have free will, but God already knows how you're gonna use it. And that's kinda difficult to argue with.
By the way, I have no gay friends.
Well, I do but not in the, you know, sexual-orientation way...
"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."
It is sad that people can't just leave them be and Michael Moore is just trying to make money off this hot topic and the amount of activity in this thread proves he's going to make a lot of green.
I thought this movie was about gays not bible belters, seems kinda weird, all the Christians I know support gay rights, in fact the only anti gay people i know are atheists, well one that is Hindu, so i dunno y this movie will be about religion.
I realize you’re speaking only of people you know but the views of the people you know don’t jibe with statistics. Christians are overwhelmingly antigay. There is no question that Christians largely have been outspoken in their contempt for homosexuals.
I am an Atheist and I can assure you that statistically my view represents the majority of Atheists. An Atheist who’s antigay would indeed be a rarity since Atheists themselves are a minority and the overwhelming majority of them support gay rights. Most Atheists are logical, level headed people. Being antigay simply doesn’t hold up to logic.
Watching a Michael Moore documentary is like watching an old fashion film. The heroes are heroes and the villians are villians. It's pretty basic black and white. Liberals are Godsends and Conservatives are backwards bastards. And Moore will twist facts and footage until it fits that black and white world he lives in.
I mean that I like Moore's films and as a director he manages to make a good film. However, as documentaries, his films are shady.
This will be the right wing bible belters against gays. We'll have a study of Fred Phelps and a story on Matthew Shepard, or people of the same sort. It'll have Michael Moores same smart-ass tone and of course be a rally call for leftwingers.
It'll be entertaining, but not informative. I mean how informative can it be if you have to sort through Moore's bullshit?
Christian argument: Free will. Being gay is a choice, not something you're born with. Thus did God not create gay people, gay people chose to be gay.
For the record, I don't believe this, but that's their argument.
This argument is because Christians believe it is a sin. So in our eyes, saying God creates gay people is like saying "God creates murderers" or that he creates liars.
You know there are more facets to homophobia then just the Christian community. While alot of disdain extends from Christian beleifs, there are also other religious groups which condem gays as well.
Most christians I know are not literalist but take the bible for what it is: morality stories and ways to show one how to live life. I.E do unto others and basically what we'd call common human decency.
Hate to say it but the bible does condemn gays. Moore was wrong in that statement. I don't agree with it, for obivious reasons, but I'm not going to say it's not in there.
The fact is that this thread is about Moores docu. Like what do gays think of this project?
Am I the only one who thinks nixon tossed this thread out here because he knew it would be a big stink-bomb?
Well, the Rumor Board has been kind of slow lately.
Anyway, just wanted to remind everyone not to drift off-topic. This thread is about Michael Moore's next documentary and the proposed topic, Homophobia. The line between debate and personal attacks is starting to become blurred. So be warned, some posts might disappear.
Though earth and man are gone, I thought the cube would last forever. I WAS WRONG.
Just to get all the facts straight, where exactly does Michael Moore ever say the Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuality? I’ve seen him called a liar in this thread for falsely saying the Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuals. But I haven’t see where he’s actually said that.
Here is the quote from the first post:
“I think it’s a very ripe subject for someone like me to make a movie about. Simply because we are not there yet and it remains one of the last open wounds on our soul that we are not willing to fix yet,” Moore told The Advocate. “There is nowhere in the four Gospels where Jesus uses the word homosexual.’ The right wing has appropriated this guy … and they have used him to attack gays and lesbians, when he never said a single word against people who are homosexual. Anyone who professes to be a Christian and does that is certainly not following the teachings of Jesus Christ.”
Nowhere in this quote does Michael Moore say the Bible doesn’t condemn homosexuals. He only says that Jesus doesn’t say anything about homosexuals in any of the Gospels - which is true. Is there another quote being used in this thread other than the above one?
This argument is because Christians believe it is a sin. So in our eyes, saying God creates gay people is like saying "God creates murderers" or that he creates liars.
-Chris
I know, that was my point. That the fundamental beliefs of Christianity is that man chooses to sin, and some (most?) Christians consider homosexuality a sin.
Perhaps moreso in North America than Europe because of the puritan history.
"The Flux capacitor. It's what makes time travel possible."
Hmm. Interesting thread. I think everything is pretty much covered. But all I want to add is a response to what Doggelbe said in regard to that Homosexuals come in handy when you need to stabalize an over growing population.
I used to think that way too but then I know a lesbian couple who are about to use IVF and donar Sperm to start a family so that theory got blasted to bits.
I'd love to hear your thoughts on that one Chris.
And to the post above regarding sin, Man does not choose sin he is born into sin because of some stupid weak woman who had to pluck forbidden fruit from the tree of knowledge when God told her "NO!, that's bad". Dumb broad! and now we all have to suffer for it. That is the whole purpose of Jesus existence to absorb our sins if we choose to except his love so we are clensed and so enter the glorious kingdom of heaven- or something like that.
The Bible is one of my all time favourite books and sits on my book shelf between my Buddha graphic novels and Hindu mythology books.
See, even Atheist appreciate the Bible for what it is- a fable.
Hmm. Interesting thread. I think everything is pretty much covered. But all I want to add is a response to what Doggelbe said in regard to that Homosexuals come in handy when you need to stabalize an over growing population.
I used to think that way too but then I know a lesbian couple who are about to use IVF and donar Sperm to start a family so that theory got blasted to bits.
The theory still stands: homosexuality can be nature's birth control. There's nothing natural about IVF.
Getting back to Moore's movie, I'm willing to bet that he casts all conservatives as gay bashers and all liberals are kind, loving and open minded people. That's his style.
He preached tolerance (Love thine enemies, turn the other cheek), told us not to Judge other people because Judgement is God's alone and said to do unto others as we we have them do to ourselves.
These are his Golden Rules and anyone who doesn't follow them has no real reason to call themselves "Christians".
I think it is fairly clear that the tolerant and compassionate Jesus would hardly turn his back on people for the small matter of their sexual orientation.
It is irrelevant what the causes of homosexuality are. Social reasons for becoming homosexual can or may be as potent and irreversible as genetic causes. The only question should be how you should treat them as a Christian or Atheist, and Christ's teachings are fairly easy to follow. Treat them with the same respect as you would want to be treated yourself.
Michael Moore's documentaries have their problems but at least they encourage debate.
It is high time that Jesus as an inspirational figure was rescued from the hands of people and structures whom his teachings reveal he would have little time for.
It is high time that Jesus as an inspirational figure was rescued from the hands of people and structures whom his teachings reveal he would have little time for.
Spot on. I think it's laughable that the neocons in America claim to be disciples of Jesus. They and their republican buddies support big business, which is driven by greed and pollutes the planet. Didn't Christ take to whipping some capitalists for conducting business in a temple?
Then you have the rabid fundamentalist Christians claiming to be the true disciples of Christ, again this is laughable. I'm no expert on the Bible, but weren't the Pharisees (who were fundamentalists) the ones who persecuted Christ for being too unorthodox?
Wow, I want to commend everyone who has commented in this thread. You have all brought it full circle. This is one of the best debates I have seen.
As far as Michael Moore's new film idea, I say why not? Keep the lines of debate open and keep people talking. That is the only way we can work towards effective change in ideals as respect to society.
It more than likely won't be on the merits of his film but at least the topic.
Keep talking and debating and soon we might build the foundation for change.
--Kotton
A spoon does not know the taste of soup, nor a learned fool the taste of wisdom.
I believe in Faith... and my faith is centered around Christian Ideology. i agree 100% with what decadencefilms said. Christ preached tolerance, he did not hate anyone, not even his enemies. he preached forgiveness.
those who go around condeming other people to hell for their religious beliefs and sexual orientations are going against what Christ himself preached.
I live in Oklahoma and I must say, although a majority of christians ( as i am as well) don't support homosexuality we treat them with the proper respect they deserve.
The fact is what a majority of the Atheists see from the christian community are the groups that are radical, because....well, they're more open on their thoughts. These radical christians give Christianity in general a bad name. The Christian community I live in are very open to the gay community.....although, of course you got the really bad hypocrites in every community, but the Baptist denomination follows the teachings of Christ, which include not judging people and treating them respectably. The only reason that i don't support homosexuality is based on moral instinct alone. I plan on asking a very good christian friend of mine today about the obsolete laws of christianity of the old testament and ask him why the thing about homosexuality is an exception.
I don't have a problem with the homosexual community at all. In fact, one of my best chick friends is openly a lesbian.....just to clear up any homophobia things. I know alot of homsexual males as well and, though none are my good friends, it's not because their homosexual.....it's just because we just don't share the same interests.
The thing i dont like about this Michael Moore film is he is going to exploit the radical christians even more and make the lefty's think that's how all christians are. Michael Moore is out for meat. I'm sure he has several interviews with several people he did not use just because it doesnt support his own selfish way of thinking.
I used to wear Spiderman PJ's to bed every night, then I woke up one morning and said to myself "Self, your to old for this spiderman bull." So I went to target the next day and picked up some Wolverine PJs cause man, that guy stabs people. C. Walken
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