Quoted from Breanne Mattson Jordan, I don’t see that the reviewer is “putting the writer down in a mean way.” I see an honest review. I agree with Heretic and others that there’s absolutely no reason to use profanity in a review. I wouldn’t personally take a reviewer seriously if he didn’t have the writing skills enough to review without profanity. So I agree Bryan was wrong to use profanity. But I don’t see that his words were any sort of personal attack on the author. I see his words as brutally honest. If I tell a writer that I don’t think his script has any chance of selling without a specific change, that’s just my opinion. But I don’t see how it’s bullying. Breanne

I just think we disagree on bullying, for me all the reviews that this member has posted are not helpful, I got this feeling, after about the fourth one, I knew the kind of person this was, it's a gut feeling, I'm good at this, I really am.

This was not his meanest comment on a script, it was just the last one that did it for me.

Anyways we don't agree on this, but that's okay, I do think it's a good discussion, and heck, maybe people on both sides will learn something.

Quoted from The boy who could fly I just think we disagree on bullying, for me all the reviews that this member has posted are not helpful, I got this feeling, after about the fourth one, I knew the kind of person this was, it's a gut feeling, I'm good at this, I really am. This was not his meanest comment on a script, it was just the last one that did it for me. Anyways we don't agree on this, but that's okay, I do think it's a good discussion, and heck, maybe people on both sides will learn something.

The problem for me with calling him a bully, Jordan, is that I can’t find him guilty of being a bully even based on your own definition. I’m only talking about this specific review. But his other reviews, I agree, aren’t always particularly useful. I often find him harsh and abrupt - and not always right. I also sometimes find him to say things that probably need to be said.

I’m sure your gut feelings are accurate but, unfortunately, I find the label of bully itself to be harsh and will need more to go on than that. I think bullies are the lowest forms of life on Earth and I’m not prepared to throw Bryan in that category yet. So maybe we do disagree on what a bully is.


Breanne

Let it stand.

I reviewed a script here titled SIX SESSIONS and prior to my review it had a prior review similar to the one being discussed here; meaning a very short review, and the reviewer not reading any further for one reason. I read SIX SESSIONS all the way through (found I agreed with the first reviewer) and had a tough time reading the story. However I found a thread of story which to comment on and I did.

So let the two liners stand and let someone else take a stab at it.

Quoted from Breanne I don�t see that the reviewer is �putting the writer down in a mean way.� I see an honest review.

Quoted from Jordan ...all the reviews that this member has posted are not helpful, I got this feeling, after about the fourth one, I knew the kind of person this was...

Everybody is going to express themselves in a different way when they review a script.  Especially on a writing board -- people will have a unique voice.

Does this bryan guy come off as something of an ass.  Oh, yes.  For sure he does, Jordan.

But is what he is saying without value -- unfounded and worthy of a quick delete?  No.  I watch his reviews, and most do contain a nasty grain of hard, cold truth.

And that is how he writes.  On a writing board, where the written word is the coin of the realm.

Is it fair to delete bryan's reviews -- and those like them -- to spare the tender feelings of the author -- when he speaks the truth -- as he sees it?

He is reviewing scripts.  And that is why we are here.

Maybe he even thinks he is being helpful.  Who are you to say he doesn't, regardless of your well-founded hunches to the contrary?

Quoted from MacDuff What are we...?

The honest answer to that is that we are readers. Not everyone cares about selling right now so reading it from a producers standpoint will never help the matter and reading it as a script doctor may or may not be good either.

Read the script, tell the writer what you as a reader think and leave it at that.

We're not being paid or forced to read screenplays so if you are reading stuff to bash it like a lot of people do, you just might be an ass.

Some things I say sometimes come off as mean but are never meant that way. That brings up the point of the internet leaving a lot of room for misrepresentation.

You could read a simple line as an attack or offensive when the writer of that line meant something harmless.

Quoted from bert In fact, I think Mike's review for Spoiled attacks the author more than the one you got all bent out of shape about.  Mike is giving you nothing at all to improve your story if you actually think about it.  Bryan, on the other hand, is telling you specifically what he did not like. [Edit:  I like Mike.  This ain't a bust on him.  Just a good example.]

Not my shining moment as a reviewer, I agree but I'll fully own up to it.  Basically I reacted emotionally to something and hit the post button without thinking.  I had never read anything like that before and it was shocking to me.  

I suppose I, and Bryan, are no worse than someone who posts a review saying that a script was 'awesome man' (I see that alot).

Obviously Jordan and I are okay about it now.  If I had taken that jab and then went and hid I'm sure things would be different though.  On it's own the review can really only be taken one way - as an attack on the writer which is why I backpeddled a bit.

The morel I learned was to take a step back for a few moments and clear my head before posting something (Michael Richards, if you're out there, take note).  I've done it several times since and have often ended up either deleting what I wrote or finding that my opinion has changed.  I think if we all did that then we wouldn't get so many reviews like the one in question.

I can't really defend my post, especially now that I see it again (Thanks Bert).  By that same rationale, I can't defend Bryan's either.  I think he's guilty of doing the same thing as me - lashing out before thinking.

Should his review be deleted - That's a tough one.  Technically he gave a reason for his opinion so I suppose it has to stand.  Really though, like mine, it was more of a condemnation.  

I think there is a difference between being brutally honest and just being an anus hole.

I think you should only be as brutal as you have to be to get your point across.

-Chris

Quoted from Old Time Wesley reading it from a producers standpoint will never help the matter and reading it as a script doctor may or may not be good either.

Sure it's a good thing.I'd like people to read my scripts with the strictest standards possible.  After I post my scripts here, have them reviewed, polish, rewrite, etc., they go to the competitions and then the query letters go out.  Pointing out misspellings and formatting problems isn't enough.  I need to know about consistency and pacing and any problems that will give the people down the road a reason to pass on it.

Without all this, we might as well just comment, "This script rocks!"


Phil

I do believe Bryan is acting like a bully on these boards.

Quoted from bryan00009 -- Try to come up with something resembling an original idea.  HOW many times are we going to get this type of navel-gazing wannabe writer story?  It's been done a zillion times before and it's not getting any better.  Instead of talking about being a writer, be one.

Quoted from bryan00009 Corny, been-done-to-death, self-serving screenwiter contrivances... everyone take pity on poor, misunderstood, aspiring writer Stedman and all he has to put up with because he going to show you (and Oprah?) all.   This story has to be about themes more universal and humanistic than just escaping a humdrum existence.

Quoted from bryan00009 -- Once again, the hallmark of the amateur -- vastly over-written description.  A screenplay is a blueprint for a movie.  It is not a short story and should not sound like one.

Quoted from bryan00009 Did your producers tell you that this script sounds very much like a direct rip-off of a Dennis Leary and Elizabeth Hurley movie called Dawg, aka Bad Boy (2002)?   It doesn't matter if it was intentional or not, you're not going to get any points for re-writing somebody else's bad movie.   You need to know.

Quoted from bryan00009 This is like the grade seven school pageant version of Kristallnacht.  quote] [quote=bryan00009]Alfie goes to college -- that's about it.  I don't see the point.  This rip-off of a bad Jude Law movie boils down to an adolescent male fantasy of promiscuous sex and (wink-wink) laughing at the gullibility and stupidity of women.  It doesn't ring true for a second.  It's unoriginal, unsympathetic, and thoroughly lacking in depth.  Don't these characters have any life outside of school or fucking???  Chris's yacking to the audience is trite and superficial.  And NO TALKING TO THE CAMERA, PLEASE.  In fact, no mentions of the camera at all.  It's amateurish and instantly pulls the audience out of the story.

I'm pretty sure he could have re worded his thought not to be so mean, the fact that he keeps doing it and doesn't seem to care about peoples feeling means he is not a very nice person.

In all those post he could have done it in a more constructive and positive way, but he chose not to.

This is the first review I ever got from another person when I joined here

Quoted from darkofan I'm not going to lie to you. As soon as i read: A highschool cheerleader decides to have a couple of her friends over while her parents are out of town for the weekend - I thought: THis is crap. Too stereotypical. How many times does the popular girl invite people for a party and things go wrong. Haven't read the script though, but I will.

Not really nice, he didn;t even read the script, he just lashed out on me, and I didn't even do anything, and this guy never read it.

This kind of behavior is wrong in my eyes, there are ways to get your point across without being demeaning or putting someone down.  It's not hard, people should try it.

Considering that the reviewer responsible for this discussion hasn't and probably won't chime in (if they've even seen it), I think it's safe to say we're in "preaching to the choir" mode here.

Quoted from Shelton I think it's safe to say we're in "preaching to the choir" mode here.

Yeah, but I wanted to know what the choir thought.

This thread is not so much about this one guy as it is whether or not posts similar to his -- and it is not just him -- should stand as valid opinions or be deleted as -- well, something less than valuable.

I am considering a sticky thread somewhere with specific rules about what will get your reviews deleted.  Something a little more specific than Don’s broad rules for the board.

Not everybody reads the sticky threads, of course, but they are convenient to have when somebody whines about deleted posts because you can just say, "go read this."

This thread was to help me generate some guidelines and a general consensus from the regular members.

And it has been helpful in that respect.  And it obviously struck a chord with some members.

Most of those quotes from bryan seem to be OK as far as I'm concerned they are all backed up by references either to the script or other films.

I appreciate everyone has different sensibilities but a board where honest but intense views can't be expressed is pointless.

Artisitc endeavours and films in particular are savaged by audiences and critics alike to a degree that would make you think the filmmaker had done something personal to those audience members.

I personally think it is important for both the development of the individual writer and the board that there are people willing to be vociferous in their views. It's a learning process and more closely resembles life.

People can learn to use less aggressive phrasing, but in a way it makes the review less honest as it no longer conveys the passion that it initially raised.

Bryan does seem to have a problem with how he reviews scripts.  It's nothing that can't be solved by pulling that stick out of his ass.  And beating him repeatedly with it.

Having read all of his reviews, I can't find anything nice that he's written.  Has he postedc a script, himself?


Phil

This thread still going on?

I think things take care of themselves. If someone is a jerk and gives mean and rude reviews, people will notice and will either not read his script when he posts something or read it and not pull punches when reviewing his stuff.

Everyone recognizes an ass when they see one.

Quoted from bert Yeah, but I wanted to know what the choir thought. This thread is not so much about this one guy as it is whether or not posts similar to his -- and it is not just him -- should stand as valid opinions or be deleted as -- well, something less than valuable.

Which is why I waited as long as I did to make my statement.

Maybe it's just me, but things that I would classify as "Brutal Honesty" (Your script sucks, you suck, and I hope a rat bites you in the face the next time you take out the trash) and "Soft Touch" (Cool script.  Write more.) are equally worthless.

I think what we're looking for here, in very plain terms, is constructive criticism, no matter how a reviewer chooses to serve it up.  I'm sure any one of us moderators can identify feedback that offers absolutely nothing to the writer and will do no good when it comes to a rewrite.

With that being said, let's move to the "I read the first 6/10/20 pages and stopped" replies.  Not much do work with in all honesty, but 6/10/20 pages is at least something.  10 to 20 pages holds a little more validity in my opinion since the reader has at least hit the "hook point", but something could justifiably turn off a reader so much they'll stop reading beforehand (see Bert's first post).  

Not sure how many people have heard this one before, but there are readers (professional ones, if you're looking to work in the industry) that will stop reading immediately if the script opens with a person getting out of bed and hitting their alarm clock.  No shit.  It's literally been done so often that it will make someone stop reading after the first paragraph.

My say?  Brutal Honesty or Soft Touch makes no difference as long as it's constructive and the end justifies the means.