I'm currently working on a new script and I've been doing some research on murder, torture and the mind of people who could do these things.

I thought I knew what level man could take it too when it comes to depravity. I was dead wrong.

In researching this, I stumbled upon a real snuff video make by a group of teenagers called the Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs.

** For those who don’t know what a snuff film is, its raw video of an actual torture and murder of another human being.

In it, they torture and murder a man in the woods using a screwdriver and a hammer.

Anyway, this film really took it to a whole different level. Is there such a thing as pornographic violence?

Can you go too far?

I want my scenes to pop out and grab the viewer but is there a level where it just goes beyond horror and enters into an area we shouldn’t go to as writers?

Or is it gloves off, write it and let the reader decide if it's too much?

Any input would be appreciated.

Shawn.....><

It probably depends on the readers/viewers. Jeff and I could probably watch just about anything while some can't deal with anything beyond a rom-com. Have you seen A Serbian Film?

I would say write what you want. If a producer/director likes your story they will make it into their vision. They could be toning down the violence or even kick it up a bit.

The Dnepropetrovsk Maniacs certainly went too far.

How did you stumble upon a snuff movie?

As far as writing something too graphic?  Well I think there is a line but in recent years the movie industry has been pushing it further and further away.  I'd say stay away from children and you might be okay.
Is your movie a fake snuff movie or a torture movie or something else?

I guess you should just write it and see how it's received.  If you get mail threatening you for being sick and depraved you've gone too far. lol.

There is a limit, it's called class. Perpetuating anything remotely close to the barabarism you describe is exactly what the world does not need.  That isn't art, it's depravity. You can "pop" without resorting to the criminally inhumane antics of those beasts.

I say gloves off for the first draft. Have a reader read it. That reader will tell you if you went to far and what to do about it. lol.

Sometimes less is better and the way you do it.  Look at Psycho.

I would also note to use your own sense while doing it. Like so many other things, if you have to ask if you've gone too far, you probably have. Never do something for the sake of doing it. Make sure it has a purpose.

I think George has brought up the only barometer that you really need -- purpose.  If a scene or sequence has a purpose within the overall film, rather than for the sake of itself, then you aren't going "too far," in my opinion.  As long as you're committed to your view of the purpose of the film/script as a whole, whatever you can reasonably say is in keeping with that is fair game.

To me "violence pornography" functions the same way as sexual pornography -- the overall story is subservient to the individual sequences.  You're not telling a good story if this happens.  If sequences function as they should within the overall work, though, I don't really think there are any boundaries; or, boundaries will be necessarily created by that restriction.

Otherwise you get, yes, A Serbian Film, which is nothing but laughable.

Strictly speaking from the hip for a writing perspective...

I say go hog wild on the rough draft.
Let it all spill out onto the page as you see fit...

Then sift through the organs over drafts and see what repeats itself...
Get rid of that sledgehammer repetition...
And then justify the remaining violence with how it illustrates your tale.
If it serves story, characters and theme, I'll read anything.

Regards,
E.D.

Gloves off.  You can't go too far.  It's fiction. There's a whole bunch of people who can and probably will censor your writing if it's turned into a film.  Don't worry about it.

I would be surprised if anyone could come up something sicker than what already has been committed to film already. (Although I think you should try, Led!)  And I'm talking about mainstream films, not just films outside the 'mainstream' like A Serbian Film, the Human Centipede or even Eden Lake.  You know, the Saw franchise has been a popcorn seller and Lionsgate's biggest cash cow for years.  EDIT -- I'm not saying any of these films are good, btw.

It's better just to go for it and tone it back later if you want to.  

I don't understand this 'responsibility of the writer' stuff.  Stories have been full of filth, depravity, rape and murder since time began. The best ones usually are.  

The responsibility lies with the reader or viewer.  If they are uncomfortable, they have the choice to stop reading or stop watching. They can also keep the material out reach of children, while there at it.  And they can also refrain from making half-arsed moral rants about art, movies or video games leading to the downfall of western civilization, too.

What is right ...what is wrong?

Write what you want to write. There is a market for everything...though some markets are very small.

If it moves the story .....then write it. I'm with Jeff/Pia...I'd watch just about anything and have.

Write on.

Quoted from alffy How did you stumble upon a snuff movie? I'd say stay away from children and you might be okay. Is your movie a fake snuff movie or a torture movie or something else?

There is a website dedicated to dark side of humanity. I wont post the site address here. Waaaay to violent. My friend recommended it for my research.

As far as the children goes, my script has the rape and murder of children in it, but believe me, I am handeling thoses scene very VERY carefully.

This research has to do with some other part of the same script.

It's not a fake snuff film but it does involve the video taping the rape of children.

Trust me though, it's not written in a way where any violence of children is ever shown in film.

Shawn.....><

Quoted from B.C. I don't understand this 'responsibility of the writer' stuff.  Stories have been full of filth, depravity, rape and murder since time began. The best ones usually are.   The responsibility lies with the reader or viewer.  If they are uncomfortable, they have the choice to stop reading or stop watching. They can also keep the material out reach of children, while there at it.  And they can also refrain from making half-arsed moral rants about art, movies or video games leading to the downfall of western civilization, too.

Too good an opening!  

"All great movements are popular movements. They are the volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotions, stirred into activity by the ruthless Goddess of Distress or by the torch of the spoken word cast into the midst of the people."

"All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach."

What Adolf Hitler rightly realized was the power of the word and the myth to affect the way people think as a mass, and the result of his taking advantage of this phenomenon was, in fact, the irrevocable alteration of entire civilizations (I don't think "downfall" really means much, particularly).  

The current popular mediums of myth are films and television (and perhaps memes, as a fledgeling contender, anyway, as they begin to develop their own character).  It's all well and good to place responsibility on the receiver of myth rather than the creator, but we know too much about the effects of group mentality and the power of social constraints and norms to reasonably argue that humans can be expected to control themselves in stressful situations.  Hitler built power on the myth of a country held back by one segment of its population, and the danger associated with acceptance of that myth is clear.  But our myths can be dangerous too.  The myth of horror and action films is often that some people deserve to die.  The myth of some horror films is that it is acceptable to enjoy human suffering presented for its own sake.  The myth of comedy films is often that non-Caucasians are stupid.  The myth of many films is that other cultures are either contemptible or nonsensical.  The myths of Islam can lead to murder.  The myths of Christianity can lead to murder.  The myths of atheism breed closed thinking or undue contempt.  

To fail to understand the power of myth in shaping society and human thought is, in my mind, a failure as a writer, or as any creator of myth.  None of which is to say, if you do recognize the power of myth, that you should censor yourself in any way.  I simply believe you should be committed to the message that you intend to get across.  If you're trying to say that it's acceptable to enjoy watching human suffering, then absolutely, write a fake snuff film or whatever you gotta do.  Just don't pretend that what you put into the world doesn't have an effect.

Obviously Led has a different message in mind, and as long as he's true to it, then I don't see how he can go wrong...and yes, I'd be in the "gloves off" corner, in that sense.

striking. bb

I would prob suggest watching films that you found them to be "fucked up" in a captivating way and notice what they did in the scene. lol.

Why see sick real life shit for if you're not going to put it on paper? You're just fucking yourself up. lol. And that's the last thing you'll want to do. IMO

Quoted from Grandma Bear Have you seen A Serbian Film?

Pia,

Is that the name of the movie or are you talking about a film from Serbia?

Shawn.....><

Quoted from pmailhot There is a limit, it's called class. Perpetuating anything remotely close to the barabarism you describe is exactly what the world does not need.  That isn't art, it's depravity. You can "pop" without resorting to the criminally inhumane antics of those beasts.

I understand your point but to some degree, I disagree.

In order to fulfill the full scope of whats going on in the story, (in this case) and IMO requires the reader to understand what going on in the real word with regards to child trafficing and murder.

Sometimes, in order to save a tooth, you have to dig deep around it. Sometimes, to the bone.

Shawn.....><

Shawn, my friend, surprisngly, I'm ont going to just say "go for it" and "the more voiolence, the better".  I'm definitely not opposed to that, obviously, but there is something you have to keep in mind.

That's your intended audience.  It's a cocnept that I beleive is almost as important as setting up your story properly, or even coming up with your story.

The violence you're describing, and the fact that it's being filmed, is hard core and will not appeal to anywhere near mainstream audiences.

Graphic violence in horror is almost expected, and usually appreciated by its audience.

Goofy, unrealistic characters and plots are definitely expected and appreciated in comedy.

Sappy, over dramatic characters and plots are the norm in drama pieces.

Is there an audience for what you're working on?  I don't knnow.  You can check out similar fliks and see ohw they fared, realizing that most are not nearly as graphic as what you're talking about.

And, BTW, Eden lake ROCKS, and did ont go too far at all!!!!!!!

It's all opinions. Some people will tell you that you've gone too far while others not far enough but your be the real judge because it's your story. The fact that you've raised this issue and having second thoughts should say something, but lets remember it's fiction and you should definitely not hold back just because one person/group don't agree.

On the other, Jeff raised a good point about your target audience. What you've described with children is a delicate matter and you can handle it with all the care in the world but do people want to see it in a movie which is supposed to be entertainment... I don't know? Could be a difficult sell IMO.

interesting discussion, my first instinct when i read the op has been challenged to the point where it's been made pretty much redundant. i don't have much to add to the debate that hasn't already been said.

caution, self-reflection, common-sense all these are useful watchwords. the fact you are asking for advice shows you're keenly aware of the problems, which in itself makes me think your judgement in the end is to be trusted.

and sometimes the use of graphic images can be necessarily powerful in forcing us to confront what we as a society would normally pretend does not exist.

in some ways then perhaps as a society we deserve to be confronted with the brutality of our own morally bankrupt inaction, in that we share responsibility for the crimes through our own failure to prevent them. a failure made even more stark when we examine how eager we are to spend wealth on toys and candy, and how swift we are to condemn the idea that we should contribute more of that wealth to a well-funded, democratically accountable state - the only agency which could prevent such abuses.

we deserve to be forced to watch.

bad things happen when good people stand by and do nothing...

Quoted from Ledbetter Pia, Is that the name of the movie or are you talking about a film from Serbia?

I meant this film. It has a rape of a newborn in it. I haven't seen it and to be honest, I don't think I want to either.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Serbian_Film

I still think you should write whatever you feel strongly about though. Whatever inspires you to sit up at night typing away will make you feel good about yourself and also keep your brain fresh.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Whatever inspires you to sit up at night typing away will make you feel good about yourself and also keep your brain fresh.

I recommend Jager to keep the brain fresh.  Vodka can work as well.

Gloves off.  You are writing fiction; people can handle just about anything in that department.  The Maniacs video is real footage of a man being beat to death with a hammer, and stabbed with a screwdriver.  That isn't a film, it's just footage.

So, fiction: if you need to, go Serbian Film.  Rape a baby, there are audiences who can stomach that.

Snuff films?  Only the truly disturbed can enjoy those...

Quoted from Grandma Bear I meant this film. It has a rape of a newborn in it. I haven't seen it and to be honest, I don't think I want to either.

I haven't seen the film yet but I believe the man refuses to rape the child? Or when he does, it's not shown?

But I don't think anyone would these scenes seriously... But beware, the director for 120 days of sodom was murdered.

In the script that I posted here a few days ago, there are a few murders of children but you never see them as I know people would just rage.

Also, the website? I think I've been on it. There was one where this guy jumps off a bridge and splits his face in half... And is alive for 3 hours! You see his face moving. I honestly don't know why people would film such a thing. Careful of the Deep Net.

Quoted from Ledbetter Pia, Is that the name of the movie or are you talking about a film from Serbia? Shawn.....><

Hey Shawn,

Check it!

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1273235/

Regards,
E.D.

Hi Ledbetter,

I am writing a  feature that is very Psychological and really has a distressing feel to it. I have some very graphic scenes and will leave it to the producer to decide just how graphic he goes in his final cut.

I say describe the scene as graphic as you would like them, and the producer can cut them back if he likes.

My feature will more than likely have an RRRRRRR rating at minimum.

I have also reasearched into serial killers and found they are all the guy next door, so dont paste a tag on their forehead labelling them. Hee Hee.
They should look and act very conservatively and not stand out in a crowd, the sort of person that blends into any group or event.

I have also read and been told do not hurt kittens, animals or children, though I do have a scene in my film with a kitten, It had to be there to set the feel for what follows.

There is no wrong or right way, just different opinions.

Regards Alex

Quoted from Alex_212 There is no wrong or right way, just different opinions.

But keep in mind that it's my opinion that really counts.  

Quoted from Heretic Too good an opening!   "All great movements are popular movements. They are the volcanic eruptions of human passions and emotions, stirred into activity by the ruthless Goddess of Distress or by the torch of the spoken word cast into the midst of the people." "All propaganda has to be popular and has to accommodate itself to the comprehension of the least intelligent of those whom it seeks to reach." What Adolf Hitler rightly realized was the power of the word and the myth to affect the way people think as a mass, and the result of his taking advantage of this phenomenon was, in fact, the irrevocable alteration of entire civilizations (I don't think "downfall" really means much, particularly).   The current popular mediums of myth are films and television (and perhaps memes, as a fledgeling contender, anyway, as they begin to develop their own character).  It's all well and good to place responsibility on the receiver of myth rather than the creator, but we know too much about the effects of group mentality and the power of social constraints and norms to reasonably argue that humans can be expected to control themselves in stressful situations.  Hitler built power on the myth of a country held back by one segment of its population, and the danger associated with acceptance of that myth is clear.  But our myths can be dangerous too.  The myth of horror and action films is often that some people deserve to die.  The myth of some horror films is that it is acceptable to enjoy human suffering presented for its own sake.  The myth of comedy films is often that non-Caucasians are stupid.  The myth of many films is that other cultures are either contemptible or nonsensical.  The myths of Islam can lead to murder.  The myths of Christianity can lead to murder.  The myths of atheism breed closed thinking or undue contempt.   To fail to understand the power of myth in shaping society and human thought is, in my mind, a failure as a writer, or as any creator of myth.  None of which is to say, if you do recognize the power of myth, that you should censor yourself in any way.  I simply believe you should be committed to the message that you intend to get across.  If you're trying to say that it's acceptable to enjoy watching human suffering, then absolutely, write a fake snuff film or whatever you gotta do.  Just don't pretend that what you put into the world doesn't have an effect. Obviously Led has a different message in mind, and as long as he's true to it, then I don't see how he can go wrong...and yes, I'd be in the "gloves off" corner, in that sense.

You're cooking what for dinner?

From the wiki, Godwin's Law

Godwin's law (also known as Godwin's Rule of Nazi Analogies or Godwin's Law of Nazi Analogies[1][2]) is an argument made by Mike Godwin in 1990[2][non-primary source needed] that has become an Internet adage. It states: "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."[2][3] In other words, Godwin observed that, given enough time, in any online discussion�regardless of topic or scope�someone inevitably makes a comparison to Hitler and the Nazis.
Godwin's law is often cited in online discussions as a deterrent against the use of arguments in the widespread Reductio ad Hitlerum form.[citation needed] The Reductio ad Hitlerum constists in refuting a view because it has been held by Hitler.[4] The rule does not make any statement about whether any particular reference or comparison to Adolf Hitler or the Nazis might be appropriate, but only asserts that the likelihood of such a reference or comparison arising increases as the discussion progresses, irrespective of whether it's appropriate or not. Precisely because such a comparison or reference may sometimes be appropriate, Godwin has argued that overuse of Nazi and Hitler comparisons should be avoided, because it robs the valid comparisons of their impact.[5]
Although in one of its early forms Godwin's law referred specifically to Usenet newsgroup discussions,[6] the law is now often applied to any threaded online discussion, such as forums, chat rooms and blog comment threads, and has been invoked for the inappropriate use of Nazi analogies in articles or speeches.[7]




You seem to have ran with this one, Heretic! I was talking about individuals, and the responsibility of the individual as a consumer of movies or stories.  I do not think movies, or their 'myths', actually have a deep impact on individuals, or maybe groups of people for that matter. I don't class political propaganda and the products the entertainment industry sells us as the same thing. Maybe I'm niave.  

I fully admit at this point that I do not class myself as intellectual, or even intelligent for that matter. So I maybe missing you're point completely, as I may not have brain capacity to understood your post. I've read a few times just to try and understand it to be honest!

Hee hee!  Fair enough, Mr. Case (may I call you Basket?).  I'll try to clarify my point at a later time, though I've not got the time now.

My argument is not a case of Reductio ad Hitlerum, though...I'm saying that Hitler was right in his views about the power of myth and propaganda -- those quotes were the first that popped into my head regarding the importance of words.  But you're right, I am arguing that political propaganda and the entertainment industry (or, social propaganda) are very similar in the ways they function, which you may well not agree with.  

Shoot, I really gotta go.  I will return and attempt to clarify.

And any fan of Henenlotter has got major smarts, as far as I'm concerned!

Quoted from B.C. Gloves off.  You can't go too far.  It's fiction.

Actually, it's not...

It involves trafficing, rape and murder of children.

Is it an actual case? No.

Is it true based on stories I'm reading? Yes.

Shawn.....><

Quoted from Dreamscale The violence you're describing, and the fact that it's being filmed, is hard core and will not appeal to anywhere near mainstream audiences. Graphic violence in horror is almost expected, and usually appreciated by its audience.

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for the input. This might creep some of you out, but here is what I've discovered over the last few days about the act of murder.

Over the last two weeks, I've watched around 50 actual killing videos publically displayed on the net. Out of them, I’ve noticed a couple of differences.

Middle Eastern public killings are almost always very loud, violent almost celebrated events.

But...

The type of murder I noticed that amazed me was the other type of execution. I was surprised to notice the quietness and the almost methodical manner in which the murders were carried out.

I watched the murder of Mexican officials, Zeta's and La Familia cartel being butchered with an alarming calmness. Hell in one killing, I could actually hear birds chirping in the background while a rival cartel member was being gutted like a pig.

Here's what I took away...

I was wrong about what I thought took place during these events. I expected to see and hear complete chaos, out of control killers and blood spattering like in the movies.

What I saw, was what I really want to convey in my script. I know it now. What I want to convey is a feeling that maybe, you shouldn't be watching what you’re watching.

Not because it's too graphic, but because by watching it, you feel like you should be doing something to stop it.


Shawn.....><