You have to look at it like this:

Your posts, your scripts, everything you write and introduce into the public forum, is a sample of your work. If you want to be taken seriously as a writer, then you have to watch what you write. As an aspiring screenwriter, you’re not only someone who writes scripts, you’re someone who is asking an investor to spend perhaps multi millions of dollars on producing your work. You have to convince these people that your writing is worth millions.

No successful business person would dare talk to a client in the same cavalier way that some of the writers here treat their readers. Because they know that their clients equal money and success.

If you’re going to call yourself a writer, then you have to learn how to write. And you have to take it serious. That’s why you have to care about things like spelling and grammar and rewriting. You have to make sure that the draft you submit is free of as many problems and issues as possible. You have to do it for your reputation, for your readers, and also out of respect for Don, whom people are killing by posting drafts relentlessly.

I would say at the very least, a script should not be posted until the writer takes two weeks off of it, rereads it critically that much later, and scours it for typos. No one can catch every typo, but people get a higher opinion of your work with the fewer typos they find. Why is this? Because few typos means you cared enough to proof it.

On the topic of writers bashing readers, one thing must be kept in mind. If you post your work in a public forum for others to read, you just might get feedback you don't expect. Deal with it. Always take it with a grain of salt.

I have found a lot of spelling errors in stuff I have read.

The biggest problem is the fact that we have a shorts section in which people will post any old script they write for the fun of it. The one week contest feeds into this problem but everybody says it's so great but it takes "serious" works and pushes them out of the way.

Don said he will post anything.

We're not asking  for a completely rewritten and perfectly polished script, just that people go over their script and correct the obvious mistakes.

I reember somebody saying that he posted first drafts because he wanted other people to find his typos.  How many people want to read a script from a writerc so lazy he won't look for typos?


Phil

Please keep this an intelligent discussion of the topic at hand.

It is a very good topic.

Please do not post on this thread to talk about your own script in an attempt to justify why you posted it without a proper proofreading.

I'm gonna delete those.

Breanne, I do agree but I think you are looking at the wrong place as the source of the problem. The Work In progress board (In my opinion) over the years has had a lot of "ideas" in progress that are never worked out before the writer makes it into a screenplay thus guys like Balt are left to point out the fact that it has nothing that resembles a screenplay.

People used to care about the craft of screenwriting... All that is left in the mind of a young writer is a "cool" idea, dream casts and how gore filled the deaths can be.

The film industry is not trying to set an example either and is feeding into this stereotype.

For my part I have been guilty of posting some first drafts when I first arrived and learned from my mistake (Nobody is willing to read the same script twice especially if the first version was poor)

Quoted from bert Please do not post on this thread to talk about your own script in an attempt to justify why you posted it without a proper proofreading.

Actually, I'd like to hear why they do it.


Phil

Pretend you have the attention of the whole world, then ask yourself if this script is what you want the world to see.

That does not mean it has to be great, but maybe the best that you can do.

When you truly believe you've done your best then you post it here. Others will read it and tell you what's wrong with it. You will realize that your script can be even better than you thought and that means you learned something.
Pretty cool if you ask me.

Quoted from dogglebe Actually, I'd like to hear why they do it.

Umm...OK.  One of the posts I deleted had something to do with the author's mother calling him to dinner or something.  The other didn't really have a reason.  They just popped on here to say that they did it.

But sure -- if somebody can offer up a solid reason for doing it, I guess the post can stay.

Anybody got one?  A really good reason why you should trouble Don with a draft you haven't even proofed?

The author's mom called him to dinner?  You've got to be kidding!

I could understand the one week challenges not being proofed (to a point).  Everyone's working with a tight schedule, which is all a part of it.  But a regular script has no deadline.  There's no reason to rush it.


Phil

I was guilty of posting first drafts when I first signed up.  The first draft of "The Scorsese Club" had a bunch of bullcrap in it that has since been deleted.  As Steve said, nobody wants to read the same script twice, so you really need to put forth your best effort when you post your work.

I learned my lesson when posting Cobb.  Took a few weeks after finishing it to let it sink in and then read the thing over and over looking for typos and rearranging stuff.  If you can read through your script knowing that its spelling and grammar is top notch and you've put forth your best effort, then post it, but it's gotta have those 3 things in my opinion.  After that people will tell you what works and doesn't work and you can go from there.  That's the point of constructive criticism.

It's tedious when someone posts on their own thread "Yeah, it's got a bunch of spelling errors, I know."  I don't know about you folks, but reading "Your an idiot" is like torture for me.  Anyway, nice post Breanne.  I agree whole heartedly.

I hope people can tell the difference between a first draft that's been posted without being proofed just for the sake of getting it up, and a first draft that has been proofed, but needs feedback on what works and does not work in the story.

I think there's a big difference between the two.

Quoted from George Willson I would say at the very least, a script should not be posted until the writer takes two weeks off of it, rereads it critically that much later, and scours it for typos.

I wholeheartedly agree. Doing this does wonders for one's script. You don't even have to think about what you're changing because you already know it sounds right. Even if it's not and you change it again in a later draft, you still feel better about your script after putting it aside for two weeks before revisions.

In any case, I don't think I've ever submitted the first draft of anything. Even the first script I submitted was a fourth draft and I'm pretty sure I proofread both of my One Week Challenge entries, if only to make pages don't end with sluglines with their action lines at the top of following pages.

So yeah, I agree with you, Breanne. Personally, I don't know why anyone would even think of submitting a first draft as everyone knows it's going to be a mess when it's finished. I think it's naive to think it won't be.

Just an observation here,

this is another good thread and there's been quite a few of those in the past two months regarding the quality of posts, threads, scripts and even this website.

The interesting thing though is that it's the same people that comment in them. Some of the people that keep making these mistakes that we discuss never seem to chime in, there will just be another thread, script or post from those people the next day.



  

As far as why they do it, I’m sure impatience has something to do with it. But Pia brought up something that made me think when she spoke about truly believing you've done your best.

This is getting a bit psychological here but could it be a lack of confidence? Maybe they feel that if they come out and say it’s a first draft that it will excuse their mistakes and protect their egos. In some cases, maybe it’s not their first draft but they’re so afraid of a poor review that they lay the groundwork for excusing their failure right from the start.

Hmmm. I’m getting too deep here maybe.

Maybe there should be script category for Crap.
Any script that reads like it was "rushed" and "not proofread" should be placed in that category and then let the writer defend his position.
If he/she can't, delete the script.
The sincere but ignorant writers who fall between the cracks, can be separated and helped.
To all other violators -- we don't need a bunch of script graffiti clogging up the site.

Moderators, naturally, will make the final decisions.

Quoted from Breanne Mattson This is getting a bit psychological here but could it be a lack of confidence? Maybe they feel that if they come out and say it’s a first draft that it will excuse their mistakes and protect their egos. In some cases, maybe it’s not their first draft but they’re so afraid of a poor review that they lay the groundwork for excusing their failure right from the start.

Psychologically, I'd have thought the opposite.  Some people think their scripts don't smell and can't imagine problems with them.

Other might also think that because we are all beginners, we're cool about mistakes and are willing to overlook them.


Phil

I've always been under the impression that a good script is a good script. The story you tell will shine above any mistakes one can make.

If the story is good. It's good... Well, not so much the structure but the actual content anyways.

I'm seeing stories from people here that are utter garbage.

"not from anyone in this thread, yet"

Stories that are so uninspired and so unoriginal that typos are the least of their problems...

I've only posted one 1st draft screenplay here and the strange thing is... It's the one that got the most attention. So, I have to agree with Alan a little bit here.

"LADY IN THE WINDOW" was written in blind fashion (just 3 days) and no other drafts followed it. I posted the script here and people really did love it. I believe even more than they loved "COFFIN CANYON"

I guess the idea of posting first drafts, depends on the writer's definition of first draft. If it means clicking 'submit' a minute after writing FADE OUT, you've got problems. Pretty much all my scripts on this site are technically first drafts, but I tend to rewrite as I go along, one step forward, three steps back. Proofreading your work is not a rewrite IMO, it's common sense.

I can understand people are eager to get their work up on the site, but my advice would be to run what I call the "dogglebe test" before submitting.

Read some of dogglebe's recent posts. The ones where he points out glaring, easily fixable errors. There are often so many errors that the draft is unreadable. The author will usually start arguing and get absolutely no comments on the story simply because he/she hasn't taken the time to proofread the script or learn the basics of formatting.

Read through your script and ask yourself "What criticism are others receiving that I could easily avoid in my script?"

In short, don't give the critics any ammunition to slam your script.

Most people learn from their mistakes. Others continue to ignore criticism and that's what really ticks me off. We're lucky to have folks like dogglebe, Balt, and others who aren't afraid to be blunt and say what they feel about a script. It's the only way people will learn.

Personally, if I open a script and there are basic errors on the first page, I'll close it immediately and find something else to read. Credit to those who take the time to read through the dross and give the writer a lesson.

Quoted from Martin Personally, if I open a script and there are basic errors on the first page, I'll close it immediately and find something else to read. Credit to those who take the time to read through the dross and give the writer a lesson.

I can't tell you how many scripts I've put down for this reason.  If there's a lot of spelling mistakes, or if the writing made no effort to format it properly, I stop reading.

I remember one script where the writer described the action in street slang.  I don't want to read:

INT.  MARY'S HOUSE.

Carl busts into Mary's shitty house and slaps the bitch on her skanky ass.


I also don't want to read abbreviated words.  I remember a script where the writer substituted u for you.  How lazy and unprofessional can you get?


Phil

Quoted from Shelton I hope people can tell the difference between a first draft that's been posted without being proofed just for the sake of getting it up, and a first draft that has been proofed, but needs feedback on what works and does not work in the story. I think there's a big difference between the two.

Mike has a point here. There are a handfull of writers here that I would read a first draft from, even if there is minute spelling/grammer mistakes because I know that even if it's a first draft, it's a well-crafted, polished first draft.

I think it's important to realize that we can post first drafts - but there is a difference between typing FADE OUT and pressing the Submit button than waiting a couple of weeks; tweaking structure, fixing spelling and polishing it off before Submitting it.

Stew

Quoted from Balt I'm seeing stories from people here that are utter garbage. Stories that are so uninspired and so unoriginal that typos are the least of their problems...

There's is a difference between garbage stories and stories that reek of typos and problems that suggest they're a first draft...However, that being said, there's probably a strong corollation between the two.
It's possible that a writer with no idea what they're doing could post a script that is brilliant story-wise, but written with no regard to style, no concern for typos and an obvious first draft.  But not likely.

Because every scripts gets posted, how can you regulate the flood of so-called first drafts?
This is an open market.  Scripts are not judged upon receipt.  There are no gatekeepers.
Writers don't have to be accountable for their work.
Or the quality of their work.
We don't see their faces.  They don't have to reveal their true names.
And there are no restrictions on how many times the same story can be posted.
So, I can see why some people write fast and send fast.  Yeah, what a rush.

There have been a lot of great points made here such as, what’s a first draft? Like Martin said, it depends. For me, I never just proofread. I’m always looking for things that need to be fixed or cut at the same time.

Usually every script I post has been reread or rewritten at least five times. I would never post a first draft personally. But I also understand that some people can write a first draft that’s near perfection. Those people, of course, would never arouse any suspicion that they submitted a first draft.

The people I’m referring to are rather obvious. In some cases, people admit that they knew errors were in their script but they posted it anyway. They just didn’t care about the readers.

Yes, Don will post anything but if a writer is serious, he’ll heed the wisdom that can be found in this thread. A serious writer knows his first goal after completing a script is to be read. The way to the most reads is first and foremost to produce a script that’s reader friendly. And why not help Don out by making sure you’ve posted your best effort and minimizing his work?

Yes, I’ve read stories that were good enough for me to overlook some spelling and grammar errors. But I’ll only overlook so many. And a serious writer needs to understand that how a story is communicated is as important as the story itself.

And Doggleby has a very valid point about the arrogance of some writers to suppose their work is so great that all misspellings should be overlooked. Writers who rush without proofreading their work or post knowing there are errors in their script have utter contempt for their readers.

All I’m asking for is a writer to post his best work that, to the best of his knowledge, does not contain errors; to not post scripts in which he knows full well there are errors.

Quoted from Abe from LA Writers don't have to be accountable for their work. Or the quality of their work.

They do if they want to be read.  If I know that you crank out a script and submit it without looking it over, I'm not going to read it.  And if enough people feel the same way, then your script is going to slide down the list into oblivion.  Eventually, you'll take the hint or you'll leave the boards.

Quoted from Abe from LA And there are no restrictions on how many times the same story can be posted. So, I can see why some people write fast and send fast.  Yeah, what a rush.

Maybe there should be.


Phil

Quoted from tomson Some of the people that keep making these mistakes that we discuss never seem to chime in, there will just be another thread, script or post from those people the next day.

So, are the offenders and repeat offenders even reading this thread?
If so, do they care?
As you say, Pia, they aren't chiming in.

It appears that any change would have to come administratively.

It may not be a case of them not caring, but that they have nothing to contribute to the thread. Those who are chiming in here are those whose first draft is worth reading because it contains minimal typos and generally good structure and well thought storylines. What these people are looking for is feedback on the story itself and what does work.

I do consent to read stuff that is not formatted properly with typos galore if the author is interested in feedback. I will overlook it, and usually only make one comment on it. I do believe that typos are a sign of laziness, but I don't think poor format is. I believe poor format is a sign of someone needing to learn what is accepted. What I look for in these scripts is the potential. Maybe there is a great idea in there that needs cultivation. Maybe a little direction is all they need (plus some instructions on formatting).

The real key to this whole discussion should be that scripts with typos don't get a lot of reads. the silliest part of this is that we're on computers. Anyone using spell check out there? Talk about easy. Hit the button and the COMPUTER looks at all your little words and tells you which ones aren't in the dictionary. I mean, the only way this would be easier is if it knew the contextual difference between angle and angel (right, Bert?).

Therefore, if you want to be read (which is the only reason you're posting really), you need to proofread. I've read where people say "I'm no good at grammar or spelling", but to this I say, "You're a freakin' writer. It is your JOB to be good at spelling at grammar (even if spell check is your friend)." If anyone should have a command of the language, it is writers since we deal in putting forth this language in what we do. We should know it so well that we know how to do it wrong when we need to (for a particular character).

As for the psychological point Breanne suggested, I'm sure that's part of why writer's chime in with apologies. It's human nature to put something out there and then be immediately humble about it. It not a way to justify the work, it's a way to make people be more positive to build someone up. Unfortunately, this isn't the industry where that works or has even the slightest effect. This industry demands people who know they have something worth reading (not God's gift to the industry, but a good read). A little ego is not only ok, but expected. However, when receiving feedback, it is equally expected that one shelf the ego and listen. Kind of a double edged sword. So, form this perspective, please stop apologizing and making excuses. To be blunt, no one cares.

I admit to posting first drafts (essentially), but I do read through the script before I post it. Some of my scripts are still what amounts to first drafts with no changes since they were posted. Most of the Fempiror episodes are this way. However, these stories are always planned before I write them and I always proofread them before I put them out there meaning that the fact that they are first drafts is invisible, which brings this to a conclusion.

If you want to post a first draft, no one will stop you. However, make this first draft one that you have read first to ensure that it is readable, there are no typos, and you didn't make some stupid errors that you would notice in someone else's script. What you need to have in feedback is not "fix your typos." That's embarrassing. What you need to want is feedback about the characters and plot so that the next draft can be better.

If you won't read your script before you post it, why would you expect anyone to read it after?

Well put, George. You’ve summed it up nicely. Thank you.

Quoted from George Willson It's human nature to put something out there and then be immediately humble about it. It not a way to justify the work, it's a way to make people be more positive to build someone up.

Not me... My stuff may not be 100% or even 80% grammar perfect, but my material is still the best horror material floating around today.

Nobody can touch my material... Nobody! NOBODY!! MUHHAAHAAHHAAAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAH!!

(Meanwhile back at ranch reality)

I'm not humble in the least bit. I believe myself to write the best horror stuff around and I'll stick by that until I see a movie or read a script that shows and tells me otherwise.

So far................... it hasn't happened.

I'm also buff, have a huge ego and have been known to jam the guitar too...

In my opinion, posting a script with a lot of typos or posting a script with bad format (some are completely unreadable) says one thing about the writer:  He doesn't take the script seriously.  And if that's the case, I don't expect the continuation to be brilliance (though I could be wrong), and I certainly don't want to take the time to read and analyze 100 pages for someone who doesn't appear to care that much for his script.

Oh, and for those of you reading this forum to see how to get your scripts read, the answer is:  Put effort into the script, write in the correct format, and above all DO NOT USE TIMES NEW ROMAN!  USE COURIER NEW!

I think what it all boils down to is respect. I find it disrespectful to the reader when it's riddled with spelling and grammar mistakes, and crappy format. I've made mistakes in the past, but nothing that's too distracting, and they aren't rampant and were just things that slipped by me that I missed. But as I grow as a writer, I do that less and less, and am able to spot things easier. But I've read some scripts that seem like they wrote the whole thing in like ten minutes, what's the point? I think that everything deserves to be the very best possible version that you can make, otherwise there's no point in reading a sh*tty version. At least make it readable. To me it proves that they don't care, or doesn't put a good enough effort in, so I figure what's the point in putting effort into reading it? Take pride in your work, have some respect for yourself and the people you are trying to get feedback from. put some effort in making the best copy you can make, because if you can't even do that, then you're pretty much f***ed in this game. I also wonder how much effort you actually put into the story if you can't even motivate yourself to spell check it or format it correctly.

Somewhere, I understand Breanne's point of view. When you spend months (or sometimes years) over a script, it looks unfair to be mixed up with beginners who don't give a s**t about the advice you can give them. Personaly, writing is a passion. It is not because I cannot make it for a living that I won't be careful about my work. IN fact, a script for me is like a sculpture. Once you have finish the shapes, you have to chisel every edge, every curve, to make it the smoother than possible. If I came in this site, it is not to show off but to submit my work and try to see what's wrong in it.

About the typos, I must admit that I could read and read and read again my scripts, I ALWAYS find some of them. Sometimes, you're too much INTO your script that you need an outer eye to see the flaws and the failures.

One hint if it could be useful to some of you: I work with Final Draft. It has a check spelling and thesaurus. But that's not enough to me. So I copy my text under word and check it with the grammar option. It helps me a lot.

Michel

I think Pia brought up a good point.

When you hit that submit button, you are putting your script up for the whole world to see. You are saying this is mine, and this is how I write, look at me.

I have seen a lot of scripts lately that look like first drafts. I think it's because they are just learning how to write, and don't know any better, but it doesn't help the writer to learn how to write if someone replies to them with "Good job." I've seen that on some of these scripts, too.

I started writing screenplays a couple years ago. I always looked for type o's before submitting, but there were always some (a lot) that I didn't find. Format confused me too, and that will kill it for a reader. I thank God for simply scripts, and it's members here. Through them I have learned so much. I never had a writing class. Just self taught and helped by the good folks here. Some of my scripts from 2004 and 2005 are still up on the boards somewhere, and I think I've come a long way from them.

So I think these scripts are coming from new writers who are just beginning to try and figure things out, but like Pia said...The world is eyeing your script.
Your script is not only on this site it's on the internet. Google your name or screen name, and see what comes up. Probably one of your scripts or one of your replies to a script.

  

As George pointed out earlier, everyone here has a spellcheck.  Does it work 100%?  No.  But when we see a main character's name spelled in correctly, or when two words are stuck together likethis, then you obviously haven't been using it.

Also, reading the script after you've completed it will also prevent story line mistakes that make us scratch our heads and ask WTF?


Phil

I select which scripts to read based on several things:

Do I know this author? If so, is he/she one of those few that I will read pretty much anything they write, because I know they are very good or great even.

Does that author hang around here? If not, why bother reading, when they don't care about my input. Occasionally I read from authors like that, but only if the story itself seem to interest me.

If the person does hang around here, but Don gave it a less than favorable format  rating, then I usually check the authors age if available. If the author is very young I take that in consideration and figure that perhaps they just don't know better and I'll try to be helpful. If the author appears to be an adult, I might get less tolerant in my comment. Possibly, cranky even.

If someone submits a terrible script and gets lots of good advice here, but ignore the help given, then I will ignore ALL their scripts.

I think most of us here can tell if a script is a serious effort by a true beginner or something thrown together while a commercial came on during a cartoon.

Now, I've stated this to a point in one of my script threads, but I feel it deserves a mention here as well.  This mainly goes out to those of us who are pursuing a career in screenwriting, though for those of us who are, this is probably a non-applicable issue.

People in the industry do find, read, and look into producing unproduced scripts on this site, I can firmly attest to that since it has happened to me.  Now, like I said, those of us who are pursuing careers in screenwriting, more than likely make every effort to ensure that are scripts are pretty close to being typo-free when we submit them, but obviously there's something that's gonna slip through the cracks.

Just go through it as much as you can.  Two, three, four, five times.  Format is format, if you don't have that down right away, that's going to take a little bit of time, but spelling is something that can be fixed immediately.

Just look at it, look at it, look at it, until you are seriously sick of looking at your character's names on the page anymore.  If nothing else, you may find a plot hole like Phil said, and be able to fix it before it's too late.  Most times a person will only read your script once.

The way I have always written screenplays (Series or feature) is by going slowly at a pace where if I screw up or leave a plot hole I can find it right away.

When act one is complete, I will go over it with a fine tooth comb and make sure it's air tight.

Technically if you just edit bits and parts it's still the first draft. I don't understand how that formula works.

I just know you shouldn't post a script right after you finish it. (I may even start deleting threads in WIP that say they are going to do that) To show how serious I support people who care about the site.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley When act one is complete, I will go over it with a fine tooth comb and make sure it's air tight.

I don't look back until the entire first draft is written.  I had a lot of rewriting to do with Dreams in Dust and Marble as the story got darker and darker as it went along.


Phil

I never go over it until the entire draft is done either. I always find stuff happens later that I never thought of but like and I have to rewrite it anyway. I've had characters change genders, characters merge together, characters disappear entirely, additional plots open up, things occur in act three that suddenly need to be set up in act one, relationships change, etc. Somewhere for me in the writing process, the story starts to take on a life of its own, and I willingly allow the characters to guide me from point to point while more and more loosely following the original idea I had.

Of course this usually shows me that I wrote the first part of the script wrong to begin with and now I have to fix it based on what they made me do to the second half. In my most recent one, I discovered one character mixed up in something unexpected, so I have to make sure that isn't so contrived when it happens. I found that there is actually a love triangle going on that wasn't played on in the beginning. I also need to shuffle some pages around to make soem things happen quicker. But these are things I could not have known when I got to the end of act one...but that's primarily because act one is not where I thought it was.

I hold to my belief that you should write draft one from the heart and let it go where it may. Tighten it later.

Does anyone go back and read what they've written prior to starting a new day's writing session?

I try to do it just so I can get back in touch with the story, at least a few scenes anyway, if I'm really deep into it.

When I start a new session I tend to read everything several times before I continue. It's part procrastination, part perfectionsim. Trouble is, I'll often spend a couple of hours writing and end up with less pages than I started with.

I've no idea how people can number their drafts. All my scripts are just one neverending draft.

I tend to at least scan everything on a new day, if for no other reason than to remember where in the world I left off. Sometimes, if I'm stuck, I'll read the whole thing to maybe catch a thread of something I can run with. It depends.

I don't number drafts. I put a revision date on it so I know when the last time I did something to it was. I consider a first draft to be what you finish before going back over it. Once you make corrections and changes, I consider that a second draft and so on. Some consider a draft to be first until a major change.

Not to be a nudge here, but we're drifting a little off-topic.

The original intent (and point) of this thread is starting to get diluted.

[EDIT:  Oh, is this thread in screenwriting class now?  Where is that moderator hahahah....]

This thread has always been in screenwriting class. And I think that moderator is drifting. I'm sure he'll clean it up at some point.