I question popped up in Ste's Soulshadows eisode as to whether the slug should be INT or EXT when inside a stadium.  Weirdly I have a similar pondry now, a scene that takes place in a trench.  Should this be EXT as it's outside or INT as it's closed in?  Any suggestions...

The only example I could find was Ferris Bueller's Day Off...

EXT. WRIGLEY FIELD. STANDS 166

Ferris sits down with the baseball. He shakes his stinging
paw. On either side of him are Cameron and Sloane. Cameron's
scarfing nachos.

-------------------------------------------------

In the scene, he's in the stands of a stadium. So that's Ext 1 Int 0

What we need is the screenplay for Goal!

Anyone know where we can find it?

Difinitely EXT.

EXT. IN A TRENCH - NIGHT

SEVEN mud-caked DOUGH BOYS hunker under a rain of German artilliary fire.

I would agree that a trench is probably EXT.

But I am not so sure about a football stadium (which is where this query stems from). Apart from anything else - if it is EXT. but the stadium has a retracting roof (like the Millennium Stadium in Cardiff) and part of the plot revolves around it closing - does it then become INT?

My personal feeling is that it would be INT/EXT.

Definitely INT.  The camera and action is "inside" the stadium.  The stadium is a structure, once you walk through the stadium gates, you're inside it.

Quoted from Dreamscale Definitely INT.  The camera and action is "inside" the stadium.  The stadium is a structure, once you walk through the stadium gates, you're inside it.

I agree with that.

Trenches is easily


EXT.  TRENCH - DAY



Any Given Sunday, Oliver Stone's revision, has it as:


EXT.  "SHARK" STADIUM (MIAMI, USA) - LATE DAY (ANY SUNDAY)

A shooting script may call it EXT because of the lighting involved and neccessary, but in reality, it is an INT scene, as you are defintely inside a structure.  Toom take it a step further, would it change whether or not the top is open?  It's still the same structure, top open or closed, and because of that, both are INT scenes.

I'm just giving examples, pal.

I hear ya.  What is your opinion?

I don't agree, Jeff. You may be inside a stadium but you are still physically outside (under the open sky so to speak).

Cool, thanks guys.

Quoted from Dreamscale I hear ya.  What is your opinion?

I don't know.  

If it's an open stadium, I'd do EXT

If closed, I'd go INT.

I tried writing a wrestling script once, and I'd use INT but of course those events are with roofs over the arena.

Quoted from sniper I don't agree, Jeff. You may be inside a stadium but you are still physically outside (under the open sky so to speak).

Yeah, I'd agree with Rob. Open sky above - EXT
Hockey or basketball it would be INT.
A closed roof would be INT, IF the whole game took place with it shut. If the roof shuts during the script, I doubt anyone would care if the slug said INT or EXT.
Also there could be people reading who mighn't know that a certain stadium has a retractable roof. The important thing is the action and what's happening in the stadium, as part of the script.

In the end, it probably doesn't matter alffy - we'll get the gist of it.

The purpose of INT. or EXT is two fold. One to indicate if the scene is external or internal but also to assist the lighting engineer.

The lighting for internal and external shots require totally different considerations and that still applies regardless of the scene being shot in the day or night.

You can use INT./EXT to indicate to the director and others that the shot choice can be either, such as when a car is involved in the scene.

I don't think it really matters.

However.

EXT. STADIUM.

Reads as though you are exterior the stadium, rather than in it. Could get confusing, especially if you have a scene that also takes place outside of the stadium (IE they buy tickets, a hot dog etc).

If you were to use EXT for the inside of the stadium, you'd have the same slug for both locations and that seems wrong to me.

Exactly my point, Dec. I agree with you here completely.

In Field of Dreams when Terence Mann and Ray Kinsella pull into the parking lot at Fenway it's EXT. FENWAY PARK. Once they enter the Stadium it's INT. STADIUM. As they emerge into the sunlight after walking from the indoor to the outdoor portion of the stadium and reach their seats it's SECTION SEVENTEEN. Sorry don't know if that helps.

It does actually, Sandman. Thanks.

Quoted from Sandman In Field of Dreams when Terence Mann and Ray Kinsella pull into the parking lot at Fenway it's EXT. FENWAY PARK. Once they enter the Stadium it's INT. STADIUM. As they emerge into the sunlight after walking from the indoor to the outdoor portion of the stadium and reach their seats it's SECTION SEVENTEEN. Sorry don't know if that helps.

Thank you, it does help. The whole problem lies within our perception. What's EXTERIOR can also be deemed INTERIOR, depending upon which side you're coming from.

If, from your perspective, you're going INTO something, something with a barrier, even if it's an internal barrier, such as "A Mind", then you are going IN.

Any kind of "borders" to me, means an external/internal crossing. It might be completely external and easy, as in: a structure with floor, walls and ceiling - or it may be an internal separation that one has constructed. Same floor, walls and ceiling, but abstract and prohibiting access one way or the other.

Most important thing to remember, I think, is to judge each case individually. There will always be exceptions to every rule.

The good thing is that we don't take it lightly - The INT./EXT. question. It's important. In so many ways and on so many levels.

Sandra

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films I don't think it really matters. However. EXT. STADIUM. Reads as though you are exterior the stadium, rather than in it. Could get confusing, especially if you have a scene that also takes place outside of the stadium (IE they buy tickets, a hot dog etc). If you were to use EXT for the inside of the stadium, you'd have the same slug for both locations and that seems wrong to me.

You're right, dec, it doesn't really matter and as seen by the examples provided by Slabby and Sandman, both are used.

Having said that, INTERIOR and INSIDE (as in, I've-just-walk-through-a-gate-to-a-stadium) are two very different things in my book. Technically, EXT. is the correct way to go when inside a stadium because you are EXTERIOR or EXTERNAL as Ron puts it, and thereby at the mercy of the elements (sunshine, rain...whatever). EXT. and INT. doesn't really tell us anything other whether the shot is EXTERIOR or INTERIOR.

Whether it's confusing or not for the reader really depends on how you put the slug together. Being inside the stadium, you could easily get away with:

EXT. YANKEE STADIUM - FIELD (or DIAMOND) - DAY
EXT. YANKEE STADIUM - DUGOUT - DAY
EXT. YANKEE STADIUM - STANDS - NIGHT

Hell, you could even get away with:

EXT. INSIDE YANKEE STADIUM - STANDS - DAY
EXT. OUTSIDE YANKEE STADIUM - BOX OFFICE - NIGHT

But I have a better idea, let's wait til the writers of the October OWC are revealed and then let's ask whoever wrote GHOST IN THE GRAVEYARD why he or she chose EXT. for this scene --

Quoted from Ghost In The Graveyard pg. 2 EXT. MT. HOPE CEMETERY - CONTINUOUS

-- even though you have to pass through a gate to get inside the cemetery.

What do you say, Jeff, should we wait for that?  

Quoted from sniper You're right, dec, it doesn't really matter and as seen by the examples provided by Slabby and Sandman, both are used. Having said that, INTERIOR and INSIDE (as in, I've-just-walk-through-a-gate-to-a-stadium) are two very different things in my book. Technically, EXT. is the correct way to go when inside a stadium because you are EXTERIOR or EXTERNAL as Ron puts it, and thereby at the mercy of the elements (sunshine, rain...whatever). EXT. and INT. doesn't really tell us anything other whether the shot is EXTERIOR or INTERIOR. Whether it's confusing or not for the reader really depends on how you put the slug together. Being inside the stadium, you could easily get away with: EXT. YANKEE STADIUM - FIELD (or DIAMOND) - DAY EXT. YANKEE STADIUM - DUGOUT - DAY EXT. YANKEE STADIUM - STANDS - NIGHT Hell, you could even get away with: EXT. INSIDE YANKEE STADIUM - STANDS - DAY EXT. OUTSIDE YANKEE STADIUM - BOX OFFICE - NIGHT But I have a better idea, let's wait til the writers of the October OWC are revealed and then let's ask whoever wrote GHOST IN THE GRAVEYARD why he or she chose EXT. for this scene -- -- even though you have to pass through a gate to get inside the cemetery. What do you say, Jeff, should we wait for that?

The answer: "It doesn't really matter" is true if you are in omniscient mode. From the perspective of the character who witnesses it however, it DOES MATTER.

One is WITNESSING SOMETHING EITHER FROM OUTSIDE IN, OR INSIDE OUT.

We need to establish POV and so I think: IT DOES MATTER.

I know it doesn't seem that way at first, but think about it seriously , and it does.

Sandra

Quoted from Sandra Elstree. The answer: "It doesn't really matter" is true if you are in omniscient mode. From the perspective of the character who witnesses it however, it DOES MATTER.

Okay, Sandra, I'll rephrase - it doesn't matter that much  

Tough one. Somebody was taking the piss in a script. Yer man doodooha, oh the thing about Beckett, where's my memory gone?

INT. TREE

It was a good point.

If you're inside the stadium then you're on location and not on the street. So I say 'INT.'

p.s. Stevie

Brilliant avatar work bud. But slow it down a little and then it will be almost as good as mine.

RV

I can't RV, it came like that from an av site!  I swap every now and then.

By the way, did you pick the beatle refs in my OWC?

Quoted from rendevous If you're inside the stadium then you're on location and not on the street. So I say 'INT.'

INT. = Interior. This scene takes place indoors.
EXT. = Exterior. This scene takes place outdoors.

Don't mix up INSIDE and INTERIOR.

Oh, and "being on location" just means that you're not in a studio.

Shameless plug [sorry Bill] but, as Michelle would say

Quoted from Michelle from 'The Key' Hmmm.

This one is going to be a matter of opinion no matter how you slice it. There will always be locations that are ambiguous, though typically INT means inside a structure and EXT typically means in the open air. It actually does NOT relate to the location in the slug. Here's a case in point.

EXT. HOUSE - NIGHT

Bob places a pot on the kitchen counter and leans on the stove top. He jerks his hand back, shaking it vigorously.

Can you figure out what this means without a lot of explanation? INT and EXT is one of those times when the screenwriter is allowed to control the camera location. In this example, Bob is clearly inside the house, but since the slug reads EXT, we're watching him from (most likely) outside a window. All the ACTUAL action is really INT HOUSE, but by using EXT, we've told the director that for some reason, the audience is standing outside watching this.

So INT and EXT aren't a notation of where the scene takes place. That information is clarified in the action statements. The slug line is a notation of where the audience is hanging out watching the action. It's your 'we' statement.

So for a stadium, we are aware that we're checking out the stands and this couple talking (or whatever). In a standard stadium, this is going to be in the open air, or outside. Therefore, it will be an exterior shot. I doubt you'd get many people on the street tell you that they when they were at the stadium watching the game that they were inside. The dugout of a baseball stadium can go either way, I would imagine since it's an enclosed area.

Here's where it gets fuzzy. INT and EXT can be relational to other objects within another structure. For instance, you might be INT HOUSE, but you CAN be EXT BEDROOM when you're standing in the hall. Why would you do this. Style, probably. Could be story related. After all, why not say INT HALL? There has to be a reason to do something like that.

So from a standard standpoint, it's most simply inside and outside, but it can get complicated depending on how you're telling your story and how granular you want to get in your sluglines. Personally, I would use EXT and where in the stadium they are, unless it is a covered stadium, and then I'd go with INT. Just me.

I understand what is being said regarding the fact that most stadiums are open air - but I would maintain that you are entering - going inside - a structure, so should be INT.

(If you have two characters in a house that is being built and which has no roof, would you say they were EXT?)

I do think this probably boils down, in the end, to personal preference - examples of scripts given here have used both!

I agree.

To me EXT. STADIUM instantly make you think you are standing outside the stadium.

INT. STADIUM that you are stood inside the stadium.

INT. STADIUM. STANDS
INT. STADIUM. TOILETS.

Simple as that really.

If I was moving from the stand to the field of play, I'd use something like

INT. STADIUM. ON THE FIELD.  Or whatever.

You're a funny one, Rob...that you are!  Good pooint, but of course, I have an answer.

Let's go back to the football stadium for a minute.

Many football stadiums have the ability to be open or closed, depending on weather.  Even when they're open, many still are closed in for the most part.  So, if you argue that you've got an EXT shot here because it's open and the sun is shining in, what happens when/if the roof closes?  Do you then have an INT shot?  Think how confusing a read that would be.  Or if you had a character walk underneath the get a hot dog or 14 beers?

A graveyard, like a park isn't an actual structure...it's laways going to be an EXt shot, cause it's outside...outside all the way.

As George puts it, it's going to depend on who you ask and then what their logic is.

Quoted from Dreamscale You're a funny one, Rob...that you are!  Good pooint, but of course, I have an answer.

I knew you'd like that one, bro.

Quoted from Dreamscale Many football stadiums have the ability to be open or closed, depending on weather.  Even when they're open, many still are closed in for the most part.  So, if you argue that you've got an EXT shot here because it's open and the sun is shining in, what happens when/if the roof closes?  Do you then have an INT shot?  Think how confusing a read that would be.  Or if you had a character walk underneath the get a hot dog or 14 beers?

For an open or no roof stadium I would definitely use EXT. If it's a closed roof stadium then I would use INT. To me, it all depends whether or not the characters are exposed to the elements.

Quoted from Dreamscale A graveyard, like a park isn't an actual structure...it's laways going to be an EXt shot, cause it's outside...outside all the way.

But so are many stadiums - take Yankee Stadium for example:



I know stadiums don't all look the same and some seem more closed than others but, in general, I would always put open roof stadiums as EXT.

I would say that a graveyard is not a structure or building - though they may have a church within them, the most they'd have built wise is gates and a wall. You remain outside at all times.

A stadium - any stadium - is an actual structure - a building (with or without a roof) that is designed by an architect and built of concrete and metal.

The simple answer is - never write a script set in a stadium!

Quoted from Niles_Crane The simple answer is - never write a script set in a stadium!

Amen!

It's fairly clear to me that there is a major difference between being outside a stadium and inside one.

All those people are inside the Yankee stadium. If they were outside it, they'd be milling around outside those thousand foot walls.

Going into a cemetry is like opening a farmyard gate and going into the next field. There is no structure. There is the cemetery and then the Church.

You have to go inside a football stadium to enter it and you don't leave the stadium to enter the stands, you are still within the stadium.

I'd have to agree with Dec here again.  Also, Niles has a good point, about stadiums being "structures' built by architects,as wel as just now writing a script that takes place in a stadium.

Here's a thought, if it is raining in your stadium scene do the crowds of spectators in the Internal shot, get wet?

If they do, then surely they are in an external shot.

Quoted from Ron Aberdeen Here's a thought, if it is raining in your stadium scene do the crowds of spectators in the Internal shot, get wet? If they do, then surely they are in an external shot.

But, that complicates things. Because then, you'd have to specify which stadium you're in, even if it's not integral to the story. Wouldn't that make it harder for the production team, too? Then, they'd have to scout out a particular stadium, rather than the most economical one. Right?

EDIT: Maybe I'll go look up the script for The Fan. There was a hurricane going on in the last game, but it was supposed to be San Francisco.

EDIT 2: I can't find the damn thing. Whatever.

Image the complication of holding Air Force One in the Air then helping it land, nose first, gently in the middle of a stadium.

Now I can’t remember if that was an Internal or External Shot, I’ll ask Superman next time he flies past.

Ron, what if some characters are in an old haunted house with a hole in the roof, and rain seeps in, soaking them all...we're still inside, and it's an INT shot.

From the screenplay for Crank 2, when Chelios is at the race track -

Quoted from Crank 2 INT. HOLLYWOOD PARK - 20 SECONDS LATER The place is bustling with energy. People eating, drinking, and betting. CHEV staggers through the place like a drunk man; each step is like death camp labor.

Quoted from sniper But I have a better idea, let's wait til the writers of the October OWC are revealed and then let's ask whoever wrote GHOST IN THE GRAVEYARD why he or she chose EXT. for this scene -- -- even though you have to pass through a gate to get inside the cemetery. What do you say, Jeff, should we wait for that?

Hm....

A scene in my script takes place in the woods and I wrote it as:

EXT.  DEEP IN THE WOODS - DAY

Quoted from slabstaa A scene in my script takes place in the woods and I wrote it as: EXT.  DEEP IN THE WOODS - DAY

As you absolutely should, slabby.

The other thing was an "inside joke" between Jeff and me.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films It's fairly clear to me that there is a major difference between being outside a stadium and inside one. All those people are inside the Yankee stadium. If they were outside it, they'd be milling around outside those thousand foot walls. Going into a cemetry is like opening a farmyard gate and going into the next field. There is no structure. There is the cemetery and then the Church. You have to go inside a football stadium to enter it and you don't leave the stadium to enter the stands, you are still within the stadium.

But you missed the point here. The action tells the fans where to stand, not the slug. The slug tells the production team where to place the camera.

Quoted from George Willson But you missed the point here. The action tells the fans where to stand, not the slug. The slug tells the production team where to place the camera.

Same difference as far as I'm concerned. If the camera is inside the ground, to me that is an INT.

If the camera is outside the ground (IE outside those huge structures), it is an EXT.

There is no way of logically defining it, as all ways can be contradicted. It comes down to personal opinion. Ron's lighting and weather example is valid, but equally all stadiums and all parts of the stadium are different, so that can be countered. (You wouldn't get wet inside Old Trafford football stadium unless there is severe rain and a very strong cross wind for eg; The lighting in that Yankee Stadium in some parts is extremely dark because of the shadows cast by the tall building).

All that matters is that it is easily understood.

To me the way with the fewest layers of interpretation is that you are either outside the stadium, or inside it. This corresponds to real life.

I think context is also important. It makes sense in the Superman example that it would be EXT, because the majority of the action takes place outside (from the air), so you don't really get a sense of being within the stadium. (BUt as soon as he landed on the pitch, it would to me be an INT.

In my example, if you show someone outside the ground, then inside the stadium it seems very odd to me to not differentiate the two.

The stands and the pitch are physically the interior of the stadium. The exterior of the stadium are the walls from the outside.

But each to their own.

INT./EXT. FOOTBALL STADIUM – DAY

THE PITCH

Both teams stream out of the tunnel to the CHEERS from the stands.

THE TUNNEL

The Manager of the Blues stays back and studies The Manager of the Reds as he runs past him.

IN THE STANDS

A Blues fan searches the arena through a pair of binoculars and focus on the Blues Manager.

Does that resolve the issue??????????????????????????

Quoted from Ron Aberdeen INT./EXT. FOOTBALL STADIUM – DAY THE PITCH Both teams stream out of the tunnel to the CHEERS from the stands. THE TUNNEL The Manager of the Blues stays back and studies The Manager of the Reds as he runs past him. IN THE STANDS A Blues fan searches the arena through a pair of binoculars and focus on the Blues Manager. Does that resolve the issue??????????????????????????

I think that sorts that one. I know exactly where I am and what I'm supposed to be looking at. And that's all that matters.

Instead of creating a separate thread, I'll use this one.

I'm writing a scene that takes place in a hallway.  And I'd like to hightlight the character is outside a certain room.  Now, I would like to write this in the slug, not the action like:

INT. HALLWAY - EXT. ROOM 101

Now, would the seasoned pros find this acceptable?

Quoted from jayrex INT. HALLWAY - EXT. ROOM 101 Now, would the seasoned pros find this acceptable?

Almost, but I would avoid using "EXT." later in the slug to avoid confusion.

Keep it brief, and you can do pretty much whatever you want, as long as you keep it clear.

INT. HALLWAY -- OUTSIDE ROOM 101

INT. HALLWAY -- AT ROOM 101

Anything like that, or something more clever, if you think of it.

Kudos for using an existing thread.  Bonus points.

Cheers Bert, I'll use the Outside example.

INT. HALLWAY (ROOM 101) - DAY

That is standard "today up to date" formatting.  People often feel they can't put times and such in without using a tacky looking "SUPER:" slug too.  You don't need it.  Format as I've told you and you'll do fine.  These people, Bert & Phil aside, know absolutely nothing about screenwriting.  

Why you ask?  

Because they are being taught by other people who also don't know how to write a screenplay.  I stopped listening to people on this site, Phil & Bert aside, when you'd get comments like "You can't use ING words or AND in your action slugs."  This made me laugh hysterically.  These comments also come from un-produced writers, by the way.  Not Phil or Bert or Myself -- Which, after leaving this site, sold Two screenplays; one that is currently in production.

I certainly weighed the options of not posting this for principle -- But I hope this helps.    

Is that you John Wayne? Is this me?

Welcome back, Balt - if you are back. Cute kid.

Balt, you old goat!  What up?  I've needed you, buddy, as I have been under several covert attacks.  Luckily, I had a few supporters.

Hope all is well.

Quoted from Baltis.   These people, Bert & Phil aside, know absolutely nothing about screenwriting.

Quoted from Baltis. I stopped listening to people on this site, Phil & Bert aside

Seems like someone likes to be on their knees  

Quoted from The boy who could fly Seems like someone likes to be on their knees

Sounds like a very mature way to conduct yourself... If only you conduct yourself this well for the day you actually become relevant and, I don't know --> Maybe dream up a script that's worth someone's time to actually see their vision in it?  Until then, I hear there's a huge sale on diapers in aisle 4.  You might need to stock up on them.

Welcome back Balt!

And thanks for the praise.


Phil

Quoted from Baltis. INT. HALLWAY (ROOM 101) - DAY "You can't use ING words or AND in your action slugs."

I like your slug, I'll use that.

It's now getting off subject, but I always wondered why the hate on 'ing' and 'and' words.  I suppose I'm a bit overkill on it sometimes, which really annoys people.

Even Babs says not to use progressive verbs in your scripts and she's an agent.


Phil

On top of all the "other reasons" not to use a passive voice in your scripts, here's a really simple one.  Check out this example...

Joe Blow is running up the stairs.

Joe Blow runs up the stairs.

See how many "spaces" you save by using "runs", as opposed to using "is running"?

It makes a definite difference over the course of a feature length script.

Let us please confine this conversation to the proper use of INT. and EXT., or the thread ceases to become useful.

Thank you.  Deletions will ensue following this post.


[Edit:  Balt's post -- a few minutes after mine, and likely composed as I posted -- was "grandfathered" into thread.  But that's it.]

I'm not here for circling discussions of why and when and how.  My time is limited, but there is a huge difference between

Running

&

Runs

Using ING in that sense is overkill.  I agree.  Omitting "and" and words such as "Omitting" from a screenplay is lunacy.  If your character is within action, ING is probably not the best way to describe what he's doing.  But "REAL" writers should already know that.

"Omitting words as he speaks aloud, Phil reads the scripture."

Perfectly, in my experience, acceptable.   Of course another preference could be

"Phil omits certain words as he reads the scripture."

Both would and will work.  What I am stressing, and I'll leave, is that a writer should have the power when he writes his/her script.  In fact, they do.  Restrictions are hurdles a writer must over come in exposition.  However, the course shouldn't be littered with so many detours as for one to not even finish the race.

Write your way.  Write the way you feel makes most sense to you.  Readers, if you're good, will see the story as long as you take basic rules and bend them to your abilities.