Quoted from Lon The Nun is a case in point.  Page after page of orphans/widows/stacked action.  It was a thoroughly frustrating reading experience.  Cut those things out and the script would have been half as long.

And that's a great point...some scripts...scripts with very little plot, action, etc. often use such a scam to purposely pad the script to an "acceptable" length.

Either way, adding pages by use of a 'writing mistake" is never a good thing...IMO, at least.

Quoted from Dreamscale Oh boy...like a late Christmas present for me. ...

Damn! Did you get the dreaded socks and undies again?  

Quoted from LC Damn! Did you get the dreaded socks and undies again?

  I got socks, but I actually needed them.  No undies, as I rarely wear them...I prefer freeballing whenever possible.  HA!!

I think most think as I think. If the writing is good - then you trust that the orphan is justified. If it’s shit - you don’t. But if it’s shit, orphans are the least of your worries.

I've had a few scripts produced by now and I have never ever heard a producer/director/filmmaker ever mention orphans. Not sure they would even know what that is. What they do care about is story, characters and great endings. Twists almost guarantees interest in your script, but even without that, the ending has to be good. Just my three cents of course.  

Quoted from Anon I think most think as I think. If the writing is good - then you trust that the orphan is justified. If it’s shit - you don’t. But if it’s shit, orphans are the least of your worries.

True that

Quoted from Grandma Bear I've had a few scripts produced by now and I have never ever heard a producer/director/filmmaker ever mention orphans. Not sure they would even know what that is. What they do care about is story, characters and great endings. Twists almost guarantees interest in your script, but even without that, the ending has to be good. Just my three cents of course.

Agree.

Jeff, there were two orphans in your post.

Just like the two orphans in your undie less world  

Quoted from stevie Jeff, there were two orphans in your post. Just like the two orphans in your undie less world

There may be many orphans running around the world because of my freeballing ways...but the world will never really know.

I think that if you had a hundred orphans it may be wise to cut some action down for space, but otherwise I don’t see a problem.

When I finish writing the script (Are we ever really finished) I do a run through for orphans, etc.

If I can omit the orphan with a better written sentence - yes I do it.  If not I leave it. As was said story comes first.

Quoted from Dreamscale Either way, adding pages by use of a 'writing mistake" is never a good thing...IMO, at least.

An orphan is not a writing mistake. It's simply a matter of aesthetics and has always been that. Never heard of anybody padding their work to make a page count. Why would they do that? Who gave them a page count?

I'm under contract to adapt classic novels into audio plays of so many chapters of 3-400 words each. What do you think happens if I go over 400? Nothing. It's a matter of professional pride to me that I hit between 3-400 words per chapter, but I can hit 420 even and be fine. 280? Yeah, that's fine too.

Word count, page count... orphans... that's for writers that never get anywhere to worry about, IMO.

Quoted from DustinBowcot An orphan is not a writing mistake. It's simply a matter of aesthetics and has always been that.

Dustin, if you read my 1st post on this thread, you would see that I said the vast majority of orphans are caused by poor writing and I stick to that.

The orphan itself is merely the unwanted result of writing a crap line.

Quoted from DustinBowcot An orphan is not a writing mistake. It's simply a matter of aesthetics and has always been that. Never heard of anybody padding their work to make a page count. Why would they do that? Who gave them a page count? I'm under contract to adapt classic novels into audio plays of so many chapters of 3-400 words each. What do you think happens if I go over 400? Nothing. It's a matter of professional pride to me that I hit between 3-400 words per chapter, but I can hit 420 even and be fine. 280? Yeah, that's fine too. Word count, page count... orphans... that's for writers that never get anywhere to worry about, IMO.

I think if you read some of these comments more closely you'll see we're talking about an over-reliance on those things.  Anything in moderation is fine, but when it occurs multiple times on every page, that's a clear indicator of a writer who has not done their homework.  And I don't know about you, but when I see a script like that, the first thing I think is "If the writer didn't bother to learn format, which is the first thing you see when you open a script, they probably didn't bother to learn the really important stuff like how to build and structure a story or create three dimensional characters, either."  Essentially, they're shooting themselves in the very foot they're trying to get in the door.

It's worth keeping in mind that by and large, writers on this site are amateurs, writing spec scripts.  There are no Tarantinos here, no Kevin Smiths, no David Koepps, no Brian Helgelands.  These aren't long-established writers who can afford to buck format and guidelines, these aren't writers under a contract which gives them the freedom to ignore page counts.  Format, presentation and page count matter at this level.  To tell these aspiring writers otherwise is simply setting them up for failure.  And while I'm aware that screenwriting is a highly competitive field, I don't feel it necessary to sabotage people who are still learning the craft.

Quoted from Dreamscale Dustin, if you read my 1st post on this thread, you would see that I said the vast majority of orphans are caused by poor writing and I stick to that. The orphan itself is merely the unwanted result of writing a crap line.

An orphan may be the result of a crap line or it may be the result of a perfect one.

WORD WORD WORD WORD WORD WORD WORD
WORD.

Has an orphan.

WORD WORD WORD WORD WORD WORD WORD
WORD WORD WORD.

Does not.

The first line could easily be superior to the second one.

In all cases, each line should be killer. An orphan, rather than being an indicator if a bad line, is just a tool for a writer to focus on whether or not it could be written better. That's it.

IMO, it is almost never helpful to point out to a writer that they have an orphan. It is always helpful to say this line could be written better by (insert your suggestion) and as a side benefit you save a line.

Orphans are not the problem. Bad writing is.  

Quoted from Lon I think if you read some of these comments more closely you'll see we're talking about an over-reliance on those things.

Perhaps you are talking about on over-reliance but I'm just talking about orphans. What does an over-reliance mean in respect to orphans? How does one rely on an orphan when writing a screenplay, or, indeed, any type of prose (as it is frowned on in all disciplines aside from certain poetry as far as I'm aware)?

And there is the key phrase, frowned on. It is only other writers and, in the old days, typesetters that care about orphans

Quoted Text Anything in moderation is fine, but when it occurs multiple times on every page, that's a clear indicator of a writer who has not done their homework. And I don't know about you, but when I see a script like that, the first thing I think is "If the writer didn't bother to learn format...

I disagree. It merely, at that point, shows a writer that doesn't care about orphans. The odds of this happening multiple times per page are pretty slim.

Quoted Text They probably didn't bother to learn the really important stuff like how to build and structure a story or create three dimensional characters, either."  Essentially, they're shooting themselves in the very foot they're trying to get in the door.

Why would you need to learn that stuff? We grow up with stories all around us, how simple is it to copy what you see? Maybe needing to learn that stuff is the problem.

Quoted Text It's worth keeping in mind that by and large, writers on this site are amateurs, writing spec scripts.  There are no Tarantinos here, no Kevin Smiths, no David Koepps, no Brian Helgelands.  These aren't long-established writers who can afford to buck format and guidelines, these aren't writers under a contract which gives them the freedom to ignore page counts.  Format, presentation and page count matter at this level.  To tell these aspiring writers otherwise is simply setting them up for failure.  And while I'm aware that screenwriting is a highly competitive field, I don't feel it necessary to sabotage people who are still learning the craft.

How ridiculous. People fail due to varying reasons, even just bad luck, blaming it on using too many orphans in a script is plainly delusional.