Quoted from Old Time Wesley I do not have to justify the script as the life span of a short is two months and it dies.

We have to justify everything we write here Wesley,  that is the nature of these forums.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley The Molly Dolly was much worse and it never sparked this. Why? Because it's not my personal feelings.

Are you saying this one is your personal feelings?

Quoted from Old Time Wesley I don't expect everyone to like stuff but don't come in here calling me a gay basher.

No one called you are gay basher.  I said your script was anti-gay.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley I can live with my screenplays because I separate myself from the stories that I tell.

Apparently not, because you seem to be thinking you are being criticized rather than your story.  Take a deep breath and realize that this is about the script...not you.

The nature of these forums is to express yourself through writing.

This is a short... is this the worst short you've ever read? Probably not. I have read some very disturbing shorts on this site that describe rape, murder and torture.

This is just dialogue and suggestive themes.

Jordan here got a disclaimer from Don for one of his shorts.

Quoted from Old Time Wesley This is a short... is this the worst short you've ever read?

No. What I presented was my criticism of your short.  When my criticism was questioned I merely brought up the facts behind my judgement.  Is it that hard for you to accept my criticism?

I haven't even seen you address a single one of my points, all you have been doing is blustering about how I am picking on you, calling you names. Other people have done worse you say.

I would think you would be interested that someone had such a different opinion of your script. I think you would want to understand why, try to work it out, try to improve, try to become a better writer, but I guess you aren't interested in that.  

So, I've had my say. And since you really aren't interested in my feedback I will try to avoid commenting on anything else you have written. I will leave that to the people that like your work and give you flattery in return for the read.

Ciao.

If that's what you think, good riddance. Honestly though, I love criticism but you made this personal by saying that these are my feelings on a culture. I know the dialogue was mean, I wrote it that way.

The rules state do not attack anyone and encourage others. That is what you're doing with your anti gay speech.

You ignored half of what I said too and just used what you wanted to pick your battle. Pick your wars more carefully because looking back through this I was playing it cool and calm standing my ground on the anti gay part.

I never got defensive over the negative reviews. In fact I said thanks for them. I did not like the enema comment which has no bearing on this script or message board and neither does my personal views on gays.

What's far more amusing than this weird conversation is that if it didn't have the gay topic (which is a super-hot political topic lately), this thread wouldn't be near this long. If the gay theme were swapped for a Christian theme, no one would care.

The gay community is by far one of the most sensitive I've ever seen (and that includes the African-American community which was number one until the gay community came out ). If anything (and I mean anything) can come across as (gasp!) anti-homosexual, then the writer is completely screwed. You can get away with racism in a script easier than something against the gay lifestyle.

I think people are way too sensitive about this and need to let it go. People will have their opinions. Always have and always will. Screaming and yelling about it won't change a thing.

wow. And i will say great screenwriters and directors use common phrases such as n****** and f****ts. it is a way for effective dialogue. I think Tarrintino is the most effective example here. If you have a scene with 2 white gangsters talking about somebody ethnic. Chances are they will definately not be politically correct in this hypothetical script.

I wanted a chance to address some of these points here, as they fall within the realm of script criticism.  As a disclaimer, did I like the script?  Not really.  I think the author's done much better work.  This felt rushed.

Quoted from mcornetto 1. Use of the term faggot to refer to a gay person is quite offensive. I've already said this.  It is similar to calling a black person a n*****. Would you do that in one of your scripts?  Would you expect blacks to appreciate it? 2. The hero Raffi is gay, born and bred that way, but he doesn't want to be gay.  He doesn�t like being gay? Hmmm! 3. The lesbian couple are referred to as "two abominations will be executed for crimes against humanity".  I�m sure the lesbians I know would love being referred to as abominations.  They would definitely buy a copy of this film and watch it over and over again. 4. The villain, also gay, is brutally castrated at the end.  I don�t think I need to elaborate on the symbolism of this act.

1.  The use of 'f*****' - Yes, calling a homosexual a f*****  IS like calling a black person a n*****.  Both happen in film all the time.  Heck they happen in music all the time.  And in literature.  Is it nasty in Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men" when the word n***** is used?  Yeah, it is.  Would you say that it's offensive?  I wouldn't.  Perhaps one would say that the reason that it is offensive here is that there is a lack of meaning or necessity behind the use of the word.  Maybe there is, but it is a script of excess.  In this case why not also accuse the script of being horribly violence-endorsing?  To me the fact that someone would choose to react only to a specific objectionable quality of the script would seem to imply a single-minded crusade rather than a realistic judgement of the work.

2.  The gay hero who doesn't want to be gay - The quote is this:

RAFFI
I had a similar thing but they
said I was gay. I grew up and I
felt a strong attraction to women
and ever since I've been trying
nicely to have sexual intercourse
with them but they seem
uninterested by my advances.

First off, this appears to me to be used entirely as a setup for a joke.  I know - bigotry can take the form of humor.  So let's look at it this way...if every character in the script was straight, and the hero had always felt a strong attraction to men, would this script be a proud banner for homosexual pride?  Or would it be offensive to straights?  No.  It would be exactly what it is now...a script with a bad joke on page two.  The simple fact that a group has been subjected to criticism or hate does not mean that we can allow ourselves to perceive injustice on an unequal scale.

3.  The "abominations" - This is a line of dialogue, not a line of description.  It does not reveal the writer's or even the script's sympathies but rather the character's.  Again,  in Steinbeck's "Of Mice and Men", the stable buck is referred to as a n*****.  I'm black, I own "Of Mice and Men", and I've read it several times.  No need to be sarcastic.

4.  The gay villain castrated - EVERY character in the script is gay.  This makes it hard, in my mind, to justify offense or the perceiving of this to be anti-gay.  Let's search further for symbolism.  The gay villain treats his gay lover poorly and professes to enjoy the taste of "lesbian c***".  Perhaps here the writer is signalling us that the villain is, in fact...STRAIGHT!  This gives a whole new meaning to the castration, in fact, conversely, does this become anti-straight?  I won't reiterate my point about  unequal perception but I feel that it applies here too.  Analyzing symbolism in this script is giving it more merit than it deserves in that respect.  Even as unconscious symbolism I think this is a stretch.  Something I think that no-one can contest: if you want to find something in the course of analyzing a text, you'll find it.  The Boogeyman is a metaphor for homosexuality.  Shakespeare's plays are all about black rights.  Dickens was a pedophile.  Give me time, and I'll find you the evidence.

I'm not trying to change anyone's mind here.  As has been stated, it's anyone's right to be offended.  But was this script written - either consciously or unconsciously - to be anti-gay?  I don't think that's a defensible criticism.

It seems like I am not permitted to refute the statements above because Wesley deleted my harmless rebuttal post. He will probably delete this one as well. Makes you really wonder who is trying to censor whom though. Doesn't it?

Buddy, let it go. Your last post was probably deleted because you had said the exact same thing previously.  We all get your point, and hopefully you get everyone elses point.  Theres nothing left to argue about, so just stop and let this thread go back to what it should be: Peoples advice on Wes' script.

In the spirit of worthwhile feedback, I read this one. It had its moments. What I find the most amusing about this entire thread is that the characters' sexual orientation was incidental to the story. It played into the humor of the characters by reversing some stereotypes, but on the whole, I really don't understand the fuss.

As for the script, it was all right. There were some moments of humor that worked and some that didn't, and I think some of it was more or less spoof material, and if you don't know the source, you won't get the joke. Other parts were attempts at sex or toilet humor and those never work much on me. I found it amusing for the most part, which is what one can expect from comedy.

Plotwise, it was a bit on the thin side. It has a narrative and it was completely understandable, but some of the characters' motives were a little hard to follow, such as why they want to help Raffi at all. Gotta seem risky to them. Why does Big Hog feel like he has a claim on earth, and what happened anyway? The climax was a bit too easy given how heavily guarded Big Hog seemed. I also don't really understand the deal with the force field. I assumed it was on, and it was really off? Why didn't they notice this sooner?

The characters were all right for the length and the number you had. With a little more length, you could have made them a little more real to us, especially the one who died. She was here and gone, so her death had very little impact beyond her name (which struck me as a gag using the Sting & Police song). Might have been nice to have a little out of story info about them so we could sympathize a bit more.

Overall, it's not a bad one week exercise, and it certainly stirred a fuss for some reason, so that's got to count for something.

Quoted Text 1. the injection of a fluid into the rectum to cause a bowel movement.

So, was it refreshing?

I think it's just an ignorant comment but I wont delete this post because I want Don to read it.

I don't need to send him any messages. If I wanted your comments gone, I would delete them. I liked the feedback but that extra comment was not needed on this board, you know that or else you wouldn't reply.

I would rather you keep your personal experiences with your anus out of my threads though. I do not need to know about them.

Thanks for telling me about it though.

I was ready to read this script, because I think it was the last one from OWC I haven't  to, but now I'm afraid to do it ,becuase I learned with my ancestral people that power is part of few people and humility belongs to the majority, so maybe next time I will read onother one...Just in time, I did remember my vicar when I was 13...He said: "Son, the heaven was made by demons too!"

Anyway -- I am back from delete land.

If you are true to your craft you will write what is really inside of you.. without reservation for political correctness. We need to really take a deep look at our characters and go into their minds. Feel what they feel. Speak like they speak. If you are not doing that, you are not going to be able to write dialogue that is crisp and believeable. If your character is a racist, then write the things that that character might say. If your character is a christian, write dialogue that matches that characters state of mind.

Be bold to write what matter to you! Be create with everything you write. That means be original. And most of all... stop wihining and start writing!

Spencer

Really? It had a comment that was encouraging others to attack me for being a mod.

Then it went way off topic and a rant like he said in his post.

I should leave those posts because...

Quoted Text 3. Do not be disrespectful of other members, do not put down other members of the board, do not attack or encourage other to attack a member of the board.

That's all you guys are doing. It wasn't a big deal until it was revealed I wrote it. That is my problem. Now I get personal attacks through Pm's... I mean really and it's not even about the script anymore.