The script up for discussion this time is long time member and contributor to the boards James McClung's latest "Tis The Season".

Read it here then discuss the specifics of the script right here.

You can of course also post comments in the script thread.

happy reading everyone.  

Are we still going to do this? If so, can I copy and paste what I have before here or should I start from scratch again?

Gabe

Gabe,

Yes we are still doing this. I haven't had the time to finish the script yet because I've been reading the OWCs, but I hope others will join in as soon as they've satisfied their OWC reads.

This thread is for the discussion og the script, so go right ahead and post. A review should be posted in James's script thread though.

I'm glad you still doing this. I will too.  

I found the script to be funny in a dark humor type of way. There are some memorable scenes such as a chlorform scene between Dylan and Randall that I can still remember. You can tell that the two characters were really thought up well through their action and dialgoue. I also liked how the reader can see the arch forming in the story. I didn't have much complaints.

Thinking of it now, maybe James should have included a scene with the corporation as a physical pressence rather than just mentioned. Maybe a guy in a suit talking to Santa or Randall. That's it from complaints.

I really enjoyed it.

Gabe

I commented in the script thread, but thought I'd jump in here as well since the discussions are probably a little different.

I commented on how I noticed the lack of a traditional character arc here, where it stops just as the characters are beginning their descent into "redemption", for lack of a better term.  James has already addressed this in response to my column, but I'll go on record here as saying that I can certainly see where he's coming from.

What he's done is gone off the beaten path of tradition, just slightly, and in doing so has crafted a couple of characters that, believe it or not, come off as being quite a bit more realistic.  When you look at it in this way, I think it adds an entirely different element to things.  Yes, Randall and Dylan are essentially both socially retarded, and even though they got that way for somewhat different reasons, it gives them a "same, but different" type of bond.  "You're miserable, I'm miserable, and since we're stuck in this hole we may as well be miserable together."

Moving on to the structure of the story itself, I found this to be quite a bit outside of the norm as well.  Perhaps I missed something, but to me the first act ended around page 15 when Cringle tells Randall of his mission, and the third act picked up around page 80'ish with Randall going back to save Dylan.  That's a whole lot of Act 2.

Coincidentally, I found the end of the first act and the story hook to be the same incident.  Not sure if that was the intention or not, but I didn't feel that the story started moving until then.  I even went so far as to recommend James cut the opening with the teen suicide.  It just didn't offer that much to me, and since the story jumps forward a year not long after, it could easily be cut without any loss to the flow.

Just some stuff I thought I'd put out there for now, but once the discussion picks up I'm sure I'll be jumping back in.

OK, I just finished.  Not exactly sure how we're going to handle this, but I'll start out by giving some comments and responding to the few other comments we've already recieved.

First off, I want to say that this genre is definitely not my favorite.  I typically do not like comedies and dark, depressing comedies are even more difficult for me.  BUT, I think that this was pretty well put together, thought out, and succeeded in what it set out to do.

Dialogue was well done.  It flowed well between just about every character.  For me, it was a bit over the top in its profanity, and use of sexual slangs, but it was funny and worked for the most part.

I didn't think that the structure and transition was very good though.  It came off as a few long, dialogue heavy scenes, without much variance in settings, which for me, made it kinda slow and uneventful.  At times an "insert" was used to show where or when the scene was taking place, but this was kind of hit or miss.  The majority of the scene headings didn't give good information for passing time, or day or night, which hurt the believability for me.

A few have mentioned character arcs.  I usually don't like talking about these type of literary techniques, but I do agree that they need to be discussed here.  I think that some great opportunities were missed here in what happened and where the story went.  For instance, all along, I was thinking that the real story here was going to be that Dylan was actually going to "help" Randall through his troubles and issues, and that Cringle sent Randall for reasons other than what he stated.  It didn't turn out this way though and everything seemed so depressing that I left with a bad taste in my mouth.

Although the ending left us with "some hope" for our 2 characters, it didn't really resolve any of their issues or leave us with a good feeling.  Being a "Christmas" piece, I think a little uplifting message would have been much more effective, BUT, I will give James credit for not following any typical plotlines or happy Christmas cliches.

This brings me to my main complaint of the script.  I'm not sure what kind of audience it's going to appeal to.  It is funny, and even "cute" at times, but the bottom line is that it's very, very dark, very slow and uneventful, and doesn't have many interesting or beauitful settings.  I think it needed more back and forth between the North Pole and Conneticut.  Too much time was spent in Dylan's house, and nothing was really going on.

I also agree with Shelton that the initial scene needs to be either reworked or cut out.  I don't like the nameless character that never comes back into the story.  And I also don't like how 1 year passes.  I don't think it's necessary.

So all in all, I think this was a well written, aggressive attempt at straying way outside the standard lines of story and structure, but in the end winds up missing the mark because of the fact that nothing really comes to fruition, no one really seems changed for the better, and the overall feeling I got was not what I was hoping for.

These are my initial thoughts.

Quoted from Dreamscale I didn't think that the structure and transition was very good though.  It came off as a few long, dialogue heavy scenes, without much variance in settings, which for me, made it kinda slow and uneventful.  At times an "insert" was used to show where or when the scene was taking place, but this was kind of hit or miss.  The majority of the scene headings didn't give good information for passing time, or day or night, which hurt the believability for me.

This is something that crossed my mind during reading as well, but I sat back, tried to look at it in context, and worked out alright for me.

There's a considerable amount of time spent in Dylan's house in the middle of the script over a long period, and showing brief outside shots was an effective way to show passage of time, I think.  The Fade In/Fade out parts probably weren't entirely necessary, but moving outside briefly to establish Day/Night was fine with me.

I don't recall seeing any sluglines that didn't have Day or Night in them, but maybe I'm mistaken.

EDIT:  Actually looks like there are quite a few missing, mainly INT.  Guess I just overlooked it given they were inside, but I guess leaving those out puts the EXT establishing shots in a different light.

Would the fact that Dylan stays in the psych ward not be a good ending per say? He is getting help and can be with other people.

Randall has also learned something about himself: that he can be nice to people shown through his act of giving a present to Chloe.And he can save lives:  he saved Cringle and Dylan's life.

Which reminds me. Cringle should be a bit more developed. Not fully but probably show his descent towards taking his own life.  

Gabe

Yeah, I agree.  For me, it was just too little in the "happening" mode.  So much talk, and so little going on.  I don't have a problem with "talky" scripts at all, but the problem for me was that the vast majority of conversation was always between 2 characters and was always in the same place.  Lack of different settings was an issue for me.

In terms of passing time, I guess I just didn't quite get it.  Here's why.  I know that Randall was supposed to spend 1 week with Dylan, and I'm not sure if he did or didn't stay that long, but drinking the way he did (and Dylan not being a drinker), he'd be out of booze in most likely 1 day.  His buying a case of beer (and Dylan helping him drink it), again, would be done in 1 or 2 days, so passage of time didn't quite work for me, as they always seemed to be laying around on couches, watching TV. It was difficult for me to tell when and how much time was elapsing.

I'm glad there's some discussion going on about this script!!

I've only read the first 25 pages so far (been busy reading the OWCs).

Should we pick one area to discuss first? Plot maybe...

just a suggestion...  

The discussion so far has been more about character arcs and structure.

Ok, that's fine. Stick to it.
I'll join in, in a couple of days after I've finished reading...

"Yeah, I agree.  For me, it was just too little in the "happening" mode.  So much talk, and so little going on.  I don't have a problem with "talky" scripts at all, but the problem for me was that the vast majority of conversation was always between 2 characters and was always in the same place.  Lack of different settings was an issue for me. "

That's kind of good economically if this script ever wanted to be made. Clerks was made in a store and the majority of dialgoue is between 2 people. The same goes with Saw just that its in the bathroom. But the dialgoue moves the story along. If the dialgoue didn't, the story would not make much sense. James' dialgoue is good so I think his script can surivive on that aspect.

About the passage of time, didn't Randall quit before the week was up? He decided to give up on Dylan and leave. And then he got in touch with Cringle and saved his life.  Went back and saved Dylan. Nevertheless, I understand how difficult it is to actually keep track on time when reading material. I'm reading DarkTower and its really difficult. But I think James pulled it off with the camera directions. He should try more subtly but in all he did good.

Gabe  

Not sure about Clerks, but Saw was a completely different animal.  Although the majority of the movie may have been in that dungeon-like bathrom, there were many other scenes, characters, and action.

A few more things I wanted to say...as I continue to think about this script, there's 1 thing that keeps poping into my head, and that's that I feel like James missed out on several great opportunities.

The first is when Dylan and Randall are out and about getting booze.  The 2 interactions they have with people are both extremely negative.  I think it would have ben nice to throw a little light hearted humor in here, and change the mood a bit.

The second is when Cringle is contemplating suicide.  I think Randall and Cringle's interaction could have been handled better, and also could have given a more positive, uplifting message.

And third, and the biggest missed opportunity, is the end.  As I said in an earlier post, this was an opportunity to end things on a positive note...to leave a good tate in our mouths...to give a little Christmas cheer.  I understand that the whole script is jet black, but for me, I really wish there was a little diversity, and downright happiness.

Not much of a discussion going on in here.  I have tried adn posted multiple thoughts and the like.  No one seems to have any interest any longer.

What's the deal, people?

I posted my review in the script's thread but, for the sake of discussion and if anyone's interested, here's one of my suggestions to James:

"I wish that Dylan represented more of a challenge for Randall, since he managed to dominate him pretty quick. During most part of the second act, Randall seems to have Dylan under control.

Since the protagonist’s goal is to keep a suicidal alive, I think the plot demands more scenes where the suicidal escapes the protagonist’s “custody”. By making Dylan sneakier, you’ll give Randall much bigger headaches, escalating the conflict, and injecting more dynamism into the second act.

I don’t think you need to go all the way and allow Dylan to make a suicide attempt (once he does, it’s hard to laugh), but it would be cool if you give him enough rope to get close (repeatedly) keeping Randall busy and on edge."

I've read the script and absolutely plan on taking part in the discussion. I just haven't had the time to type something up yet. I've been busy.

I liked it though and was glad to see there were no Japanese people in this one.  

Quoted from Grandma Bear I liked it though and was glad to see there were no Japanese people in this one.

Was it the lizard man or the vampire herpes?

Oh and don't mind me. I'm not posting anything about Tis The Season until the script club is over.

I did not have a problem at all with there being mostly two characters talking and spending most of the time in one location. One film that came to mind was Secretary. James Spader and Maggie Gyllenhaal alone for the most part in one location and it was a good movie too.

My problem was mostly that I wanted to see more change in the characters. When Randall starts to open up to Dylan on page 51 I would have liked to see something happen after that. Like maybe a reversal of roles.

And James, I meant your Bucket of Blood script and the black market body part script too. I'm glad you didn't stay in Asia with this one.  

Yeah, I agree with Me about the reversal of roles and lack of change for the 2 characters.  As I said earlier, I actually was expecting their roles to be reversed immediately, and I think that still would have been a good idea.

What do you think about the depressing and downright "ugly"nature of the script?  Were you still able to laugh and find humor and entertainment?  I had trouble, especially with the masterbation segment, and constant barfing.  

Quoted from Dreamscale What do you think about the depressing and downright "ugly"nature of the script?  Were you still able to laugh and find humor and entertainment?  I had trouble, especially with the masterbation segment, and constant barfing.

To be honest with you I didn't have a problem with that at all. I can see how some people might, but for me it was a non issue. As some people here know, I've written some "messy" scripts myself.

Comedy is a tricky thing which is why I hate writing it. What works for one person may not work for the next person and taste in comedy even differs from country to country. It's very hard, if not impossible to write comedy that will appeal to everyone. I for one do not have a problem with scripts that border on the extreme or pushes the envelope. In fact I prefer that over dull middle of the road scripts.

In other words, the stuff that you and some others mentioned in the script thread to be over the top, was stuff that I didn't even think twice about. In fact, I probably chuckled at those.

Still, even if a script is "extreme" it still needs to have an effective story to keep us "extreme" people interested.  

Extreme things are not an issue for me at all.  In reality, I am an extremist in everything I do and enjoy.  The problems I brought up are not due to being too extreme, just too ugly, depressing, etc.  Mixed with atempted humor, it's tough for me to find actual humor here, based on the jet black tone.

Looks like we're not getting alot of back and forth in here on this script.

I've tried to get things going, but very few seem to want to involve themselves.  Oh well, sometimes, that's the way it goes.

I'm still here posting. Can't get rid of "me" that easily.

I understand what you mean by the ugliness, but I honestly do not have a problem with that. I also didn't think the tone was jet black...

Okay, so the discussion has dwindled, do we want to talk about some other elements of this script? Or are we done?

I'm in for whatever people want to discuss.  It just doesn't seem like anyone wants to add much here.  What happened to the rest of the group?

Sorry guys for not inputting much, been busy writing the feature.

To answer dreamscales question, I didn't have a problem with it. It was all exaggeration especially when Santa gets involved. Like Pia commented earlier (did bit a back tracking to catch up), comedy is hard. But comedy does serve to announce these problems rather than a serious piece that will make people cry. Look at fight club (deals with a serious matter but is able to pull it off a bit funny). But I think James' script worked in the comedy side of thing. It could be more if James added more chase scenes between Randall and Dylan.

Gabe

Hey, you guys are lurkers!! Waiting in the shadows.  

How about, subtext, layering, through lines, transitions, dialogue...
You guys can pick one.  

Quoted from Dreamscale Extreme things are not an issue for me at all.  In reality, I am an extremist in everything I do and enjoy.  The problems I brought up are not due to being too extreme, just too ugly, depressing, etc.  Mixed with atempted humor, it's tough for me to find actual humor here, based on the jet black tone.

I think this is all a matter of taste all across the board, really.  You'll have some people that like the subtle, dry humor, others that go for the darker stuff, like this, and ones that want the cute "puppy dogs" and ice cream funny.  The last group is those that are pretty much indifferent.  Which is probably where I fall.  I can appreciate a well placed fart or masturbation joke just as much as a built up, dialogue driven comedic conversation.

Anyway, on to your point, and I think it's an easy fix.  Mix in more of the female character.  Chloe, is it?  I'm not 100% sure.  Anyway, she is the other side of the spectrum for Randall, just sugary sweet and nice as can be, and their exchanges seemed to give Randall just a little bit of a push away from the dark side.  At least I noticed.

Quoted from Dreamscale Looks like we're not getting alot of back and forth in here on this script. I've tried to get things going, but very few seem to want to involve themselves.  Oh well, sometimes, that's the way it goes.

Patience.  The OWC is just winding down, and that usually monopolizes the board for a week or two.

I agree Shelton, it is a matter of taste for sure, but it's also a matter of what works, and what doesn't, and then of course, why it works, or why it doesn't.

I'm 45 and I still laugh like a teenager at a nice, big, loud, well placed fart, and masterbation "jokes" are funny to me.  The masterbation scene here is just downright ugly...sick...almost twisted.  I don't see any humor in it at all.  And then bringing it up again when Dylan buys Randall the same device for a present just didn't work at all for me.

It's important to note though, like I said in my original post, I'm not much for comedy in the first place, and black comedy is a step down from there.  But, whether I like the subject matter or not, I found this script to be well written for the most part, but extremely lacking in terms of plot, structure, and most of all, action.  I also feel that James missed several great opportunities to pull this off, based on the direction he chose to take his story.

Even black comedies can have some redeeming qualities and light hearted, uplifting values.  I feel that this is what is missing most here.

I think everyone is on the same page here as far as the redeeming qualities and uplifting values goes.  It's like I had said in my previous feedback.  It felt like the characters had just reached a point of redemption, and that was it.  The End.  

Now, I suppose you could go the route and assume that maybe, just maybe, Randall and crew were going to be somewhat better people and live happily ever after, but the precedent doesn't really allow for it.  So much so, that the few times we do see Randall "open up", he immediately shuts it down by saying he doesn't want or need a friend.

The masturbation (U, Dreamscale, U! ) scene, I had to read a couple of times.  I can see the gross factor in the mind's eye, but thinking about it from a film standpoint, it's a little more tame.  It is a set up for the later joke, which you mentioned, and I thought it worked out okay to point.  At least enough to where the end justified the means.

I think it's one of those things that either works or doesn't work, depending on the person.  But, I think the bottom line is that it wouldn't work for most, unless there are alot more twisted people out there than I imagine.

For instance, the masterbation scene in "There's Something about Mary" was downright hilarious, and turned out to be something that has been talked about ever since.  It was well done, and had lots of comedic elements that made it work.  I don't see the funny side to this one...what I see is the gross side, and it come off as  offensive, rather than comical.

Maybe it's just me...

To me, that's like comparing apples and oranges, though.  

Tis the Season definitely falls into the dark comedy category, with more emphasis on the dark, while "There's Something about Mary" falls more into "vulgar comedy".  A closer relation would be "Me, Myself, and Irene".  The deleted "Watermelon Scene", but even that's more vulgar than dark.

Truth be told, this is just one of those scripts that simply can't be assigned to one genre, although I think James' decision to flag it as a comedy was the right one.

I wasn't comparing genres or anything like that at all.  I was merely giving an example of a masterbation scene that "worked" in a comedic way.  I have to assume that James was aiming for humor in including his...but for me, not only wasn't it funny...at all, but actually turned out as gross, dirty, and ugly.

KNow what I mean?

Quoted from Dreamscale I wasn't comparing genres or anything like that at all.  I was merely giving an example of a masterbation scene that "worked" in a comedic way.  I have to assume that James was aiming for humor in including his...but for me, not only wasn't it funny...at all, but actually turned out as gross, dirty, and ugly. KNow what I mean?

Yes, I know what you mean.  I think the past few posts of ours where we've essentially agreed with each other has proven that.  

My last post wasn't so much in that I felt you were really comparing genres, just styles of comedy.  I just think it's more in that you like comedy that's a little more obviously funny, although vulgar, as opposed to something that strays a little off the beaten path into dark and creepy.

Right on...agreed completely.

So...can we move this discussion on, or is it a dead horse?

I don't feel like we've really given James very much to work with.

One thing I always look for in scripts (in here, or anywhere else), is their commercial appeal...or potential.  I base this on a number of things, as I've already brought up.

I realize completely that the majority of writers in this forum are merely practicing their craft and many times, just writing because they love to write.  This is all fine and good, but when I invest 2-3 hours reading a script, and another 30-60 minutes thinking and writing my critique, I'm going to give it straight up and let the author know exactly how I really feel.  I don't think most are doing this, and I don't think it's doing the author a service by merely saying, "I like it...it's really good...".

When someone posts a script in here, they're opening themselves up for critique, and sometimes...maybe most times, that critique isn't going to be always glowing.  I feel this is good and hopefully helps the writer understand what works and doesn't work, and why.

I have a good feeling that many writers in here think I am too harsh, mean, nit picky, or just downright evil..,I hope not though.  Actually, I'm one the more easy going guys you'll ever meet, and what I say is merely an effort to help, to educate, and to move the writer forward in the process.

So...is there some topic we can address with this scipt?  I'm open and ready to go.

I mentioned some...  

Quoted from Dreamscale I realize completely that the majority of writers in this forum are merely practicing their craft and many times, just writing because they love to write.  This is all fine and good, but when I invest 2-3 hours reading a script, and another 30-60 minutes thinking and writing my critique,

I may not be the best reviewer on the planet, but I take offense to your comment! When I read a feature, I always print it out first then I read it. I'm a slow reader too... then I let it simmer in my head for a day or two then I re-read it and type up my comments. This process takes me many many hours. Don't assume you're the only one that put in some effort!

Merely practicing our craft!! The writers here vary from first time writers to optioned and sold writers!

I'm sorry that you took offense to my comments...that wasn't my intent at all.  I do not in any way think that I am the only one who puts effort into this.  I enjoy it, so the effort isn't like work or something that I have to do.

I'm merely saying that based on the time that I do invest, I'm not going to sugarcoat anything, and I'm not merely going to say, "it was good...I liked it...".  I always think my responses out, and usually think about them for days after...if something comes up in my mind, I'm going to throw it out there.

I also undertand that there are many, many talented writers in here.  But as I said, the majority do not fall into that category, which isn't a bad thing at all.  That's what makes this place fly and also what this site is all about...writers reading other writers works, and giving their thoughts and opinions on those efforts, to help them along.

If you're really investing a double read, as well as a well thought out critique, you're investing one Hell of alot of time...most of us don't have that amount of free time.  I respect the fact that you're doing this very much.

OK?  Didn't mean to piss you off.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Merely practicing our craft!! The writers here vary from first time writers to optioned and sold writers!

I've been produced!


Alright, enough of that bullshit.  I don't think Dreamscale's assessment was an all encompassing assessment of reviews, just a general observation, and he's totally right.  Yes, there are some people here who give really shit reviews, and here's a surprise, for very different reasons.

1)  "Cool script" - That's it.  No feedback on anything, just a brief blurb to let somebody know that they may have read it.

2) "There's a typo on this page, and this page, and this page" so on and so forth.  These annoy me as well because the reviewer is bulking up their feedback with nothing more than pointing out typos.  Realistically, any writer that knows what they're doing is going to catch these at some point, and if they don't...well, they have problems.  I will point out things that seem like they won't be caught "ahem...masterbation..ahem", but other than that, the writer is pretty much on their own.

One thing I recently pointed out, from a technical aspect, was Blakkwolfe's use of "hotel" in Mercy.  It's a common mistake, but not a lot of people catch it.  It was somewhat weird of me to point out, but there is a difference between a motel and hotel, so I went with it.

My reviews, are pretty much relatively straightforward, where I give feedback on what I thought of things on the whole.  Since I've gotten a little more experience under my belt, I've been able to discuss things like plot points, character arcs, etc...but I try not to focus as much on those things since having them doesn't necessarily equate to having a good script.  Story is still king, and that's really where I try to stress things.  Of course, I will point out if certain elements aren't met, because in the grand scheme of things it really does help to improve your chances of selling.

As far as continuing the discussion.  We can talk about whatever.  No big deal to me.

Thank you Shelton, you are right, first of all, in that I was talking about a general assessment, and I thought I made that clear.

Secondly, I totally agree with your example about hotels and motels in "Mercy".  I've seen that mistake more than once myself, and I have a feeling that, like you said, many don't "catch it".  But it makes a huge difference.

Also, as I said, I have a feeling that I have this way of pissing people off in what I say, or maybe the way I say it.  That is never my intention.

I gave a scathing review of Cornetto's script in the OWC, and I never one thought that he would be upset in what I said, or the way I said it, because I know that he realizes he's a great writer, and can take any critisism he's going to get.  I feel that when you get a less than stellar review, it makes you appreciate the times that you get a glowing review all the more.

Maybe in a way, I was merely trying to get some back and forth going in here.  As I said, I don't feel that Jame's script is getting what he thought he would get, being in a "Script Club" format.  Guess I was just stirring the pot a bit.

But I'll stand tall in what I said about investing 2-4 hours in reading and reviewing scripts in here.  It's kind of the way I approach life...if I'm in, I'm way in, and I won't pull any punches.  Hopefully, the authors of the scripts I've commented on understand this and appreciate my insight, whether or not they agree with it.

Every new angle or view point can only help in the long run, if that's truly what the author is looking for.  I don't like pissing people off, but sometimes it just may be exactly what the doctor ordered.

So...back to "Tis the Season"...where do we go from here?  

Evening ladies and gentlemen... I just caught on to 'Script Club', and I would like to be apart of it. It's looks like you guys are well of into this script, so I'm wondering, since I haven't read 'Tis the Season', should I wait till Script Club III or get busy reading 'Tis the Season'.


I did read a few of the recent comments, which appeared to about something I've been pondering, a reason actually I want to be apart of this. Which is about reviewing, I've read handful of reviews that didn't get any response by the author. I usually stay in the horror genre because it appeared to be the most active with reader/writer-response. I look through the thriller section and see all these scripts with zero reviews like 5 or 6 in a row. I think how ridiculous can you get. I don't understand how someones, I mean literally, first post be a script and not a review, baffling. It's gotten to the point, where I don't won't to read a script untill I've seen how many posts that writer has. I don't think I'm being unfair, here. Do you? When I review I read the script, along with the other readers review, for approach in my on review. Anywho let me know whether if Script Club III is coming up or I should 'Tis the Season'.


One more question do you have to submit a story in order to review in the OWC?


Thank you, BLB.

"Madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it needs is a little... push."

Hey, Bee.  At the risk of sending the Script Club thread spiraling off track, I will just pop on here to say that you do have generally the right idea about checking an author’s post count before reviewing a script.

I have seen you dropping some fairly comprehensive reviews, and it is frustrating to see you give a good treatment to somebody who:

(a)  Posts their script without knowing the discussion board exists.
(b)  Posts their script with no intention of ever being active on these boards.
(c)  Pops in to say, "Thanks for reading my script" without acknowledging any of your points or questions, then disappears again.

It is perfectly fair to only read scripts from active members.  That is all I read, and I make no apologies for it.

*  As for Script Club, ask Pia.  I have kind of handed this off to her, since it was her idea.

*  As for the OWC, you have to wait for them – they are approximately quarterly.  When they come around, write something up and send it to Don.  If you are not sure how to submit a script, drop me a PM and I will tell you.  It is very easy.

Perhaps a bit too easy, but that is a conversation for a different thread.

Now, back to the discussion of James' script, already in progress....

It's my thing now?

Well, first I'm going to apologize for getting mad earlier in this thread. That is so "unlike" me as a few people here knows. Just ask anyone from the Friday night SS Skypers. In fact I'm so cool and calm that I make the most unemotional Swede look like a hot headed Italian.

Anyway, yes BLB, this will continue, I hope. I know I for one would like to discuss a little deeper the details of this script. Also James McClung is a long time member here and is one of the most proficient readers and gives very valuable input on scripts. I would love to see a discussion of this script to continue.

Pia  

OK Pia, so how about you give some feedback on this, then.  Whatever you want to discuss, I for one am ready to go.

I agree that James needs much more than we've given him.

Why don't you select a new idea and run with it.  I'll jump in with my comments as soon as I see your post.

Cool?

PS  Sorry for making you mad earlier.  Are we cool?

Quoted from Dreamscale Are we cool?

Of course!!

I'm just a cranky old bat. Never mind me..... feel sorry for my husband though.  

How about transitions?
I keep mentioning this, but no one ever says anything in response to that. I think they are hugely important in the flow of the story. I recently read a feature by an "up and coming" writer from Argentina that had some really nice ones.

How can we help James make some of his transitions more "pro"?

OK, I'll think this over...although it has been awhile now since I read this.  I think I have some comments though.  I'll get back on tomorrow.

I think I commented briefly on transitions earlier.  It's been awhile now since I read this, but I do remember that I was not impressed with the transitions.

In regard to transitions, I'm talking about how the script moves from scene to scene, plot point A to plot point B, etc.

I think the transitions here are rather generic, and not well thought out.  Kind of like one scene ends, and the next one starts up.  Passage of time was also an issue with me in this script, and I would tend to group that with transitions.  Not much happened on screen, so when hours or days passed, I have to assume that just about nothing happened.

There was one transition that I liked and remember.  It had to do with Dylan and Randall making breakfast and Randall asks if he has any coffee.  The next scene starts up and they're drinking a cup of coffee.  That's how transitions should work (when you have the opportunity).

Let's get some other comments on tranistions...

Evening


I'll get to transition, but first I got build to my points (or just skip to second posts)


  Though there are many forms of comedy, comedy is at it’s best when it deals with a universal experience. It’s not always the case, surely something derives from the personal, but even that hangs on something that is scene as universal. I don’t how many people can relate to suicide, but it does deal with things like relationships, wanting to fit in, which are things I think people can relate too. Depends on the author, tough gig.

  I wrote a review to the story, which can be checked out back at ‘Tis The Season’, I’ll try to summarize some of it here, going into my points a little more. I’ve read threw all the reviews in the Comedy section, and here at the Script Club, so I think I’m caught up.

I think while the dialogue was good. The dialogue carried too much of the burden having to not only carry the story, but also the jokes. There isn’t much plot in the middle, the bulk of any story, sense this a comedy, you’ve also added another burden, which is why comedies are so difficult because you have to be funny too.

  Most comedy derives from colorful and exaggerated characters in sticky situations. The story has good characters, but because of its lack of plot doesn’t allow our characters to venture into wild adventures and instead remain in a simple house, nothing spectacular. I also found this strange because it’s a Christmas overtone to it, which I felt got lost after the beginning and picked up at the end. Even Randall remarks he for got it was Christmas. You have two options here a.) Putting a wild character in a normal world which you do when you put Randall in the North Pole, though he’s extreme he’s pretty normal, the North Pole isn’t b.) You can put a wild character in a normal world Randal can do this too he just extreme enough to cause enough to cause friction and laughs in the normal world, which is what makes him great character.

  But I feel that isn’t enough. And that Chloe, a wild character being from the North Pole and extremely nice would cause a lot of laughs in the normal world. This also adds what’s lacking by adding a little more opposition; plot comes from opposition, two characters or more creating and hashing out planes to reach the goal. Speaking of the goal it’s too vague, how does one know he’s reached goal when the goal is to prevent suicide. Though it’s possible to pull of, ala one of the greatest movies of all time “It’s A wonderful Life”, but suicide was neither the goal nor where the opposition derived from. I think the key opposition here isn’t the actually outcome, but between methods, Randall method and Chloe’s method. Some people mentioned a switch where Dylan helps Randall but the story would really turn on it’s head the pressure of dealing with Randall, Dylan and real world depression puts Chloe into a depression.


Continued....

Transition


  I think transition of scene works best when characters are entering a scene, learns something he/she didn’t know. And in that same scene or the next scene is what they do about it. Now you can crosscut between different characters. It’s the writer’s decision to show how this new information is presented and who gets it. I agree with Dreamscale that the transition could have been better, again because of lack of plot. Randall and Dylan gather little information, therefore all of the action they do lacks motive. And it’s not that it has to be some big plot point every time, but it should force the characters to act on it, motive. It also shouldn’t be repetitive, like drinking and running out of beer, unless each time they learn something different. There’s a difference between repetitiveness and escalation of the same conflict.


  Again I point to the beginning. Now, I don’t see the point of the first suicide after it became apparent that it was for nothing. At first I thought this was the boy that needed help, like George Bailey. How this does work is because after that we need to get to a character that discovers this information, and does something about it we go to Chloe who finds out, this is when he learn about Christmas Spirit dropping, and the scenes that follow are appropriate because we see what she does about goes to Cringle, though the suicide is no longer new to us, it’s new to this character how will the react. But we do continue getting new info about character, Cringle’s quite a character. I think it would have been appropriate to show a scene with corporate who’s putting the pressure on Cringle, this is a perfect time to present the conflict between the two and establish that corporate is the behind the scene opponent, and we get there decision which is to come down on Cringle, providing motive.


  Maybe corporate reveals something to Cringle that the business has been split 51/49 in ownership and the contract stipulate that if the spirit falls than 2% of that control goes to corporate to get sales or whatever back up. Than we can introduce to Randall and we see how interesting he is where wondering what he has to do with anything. Cringle decision after the revelation is to get Randall to save Christmas spirit, you already have this scene, but I think that the parts with corporate are missing. And based on what we’ve scene of Randall prior to him getting this “new” information for him, we the audience gets the suspense of waiting to see what happens because we know that Randall is a bizarre character about to go on this adventure.

  The key here is this constant of revelation and decision. The dialogue about the family and such derives out of revelations and discussion about what to do and why and this is usually where characters come into conflict and plan hidden or direct attack, which creates more revelation (punch – counter-punch) and that doesn’t necessarily mean a physical one.

  I mean there’s the scene with the mailman, and as some mentioned how did he know Randal was there. It’s odd to me because you gave the audience something to complain about for no reward because the mailman doesn’t offer anything. Randall gets the package and that’s it. I don’t even think nothing was in it. Like news that Cringle is going insane.

  Because by story end it seemed out of the blue to me that Cringle would want to kill himself. I mean I can make an educated guess, but it won’t be based off of anything I saw on the screen because we don’t see him except in the beginning and the end.

Hey Bee, nice posts!  I agree with what you're saying.  Wish we could get some more folks to add their thoughts here as well.

I think you've pretty much hit the nail on the head in saying that one of the big problems here is lack of plot...and action.  Also, I feel lack of sub plots is a big culprit for teh slow, rather boring flow and feel.  Without "other things" going on, it's difficult to give smooth transactions.

But, as i said earlier, the one transition that worked for me (with the coffee scene), worked because it showed what had just taken place, without boring us with actually showing what tookm place (making coffee).

As writers, we get to show exactly what we want in our 1 1/2 - 2 hours of screen time.  Obviously, alot goes on that isn't shown, and when the writer can let the viewers in on what has taken place off screen, it's effective.  I didn't see alot of examples of this happening.

I feel more back and forth between the North Pole and the main setting of CT would make this move much better.  It could also offer more effective transition possibilities as well as build on the sub plots of Choe, Cringle, and even the under developed "corporation entity".

Sorry for having been absent here.

BLB,
You're post was excellent!

I think most of us agree that there could've been more plot. It also seems that some enjoyed this and some did not. We all agreed too (I think) that comedy is tricky to write. Dark comedy even trickier.

Do we want to continue discussing this script or do we want to move on to another one or let this end?

I don't know what else I have to say about this one, but I'm game for another one if a few of you guys are too.

Pia, I don't want to get you mad again, but you're the one who suggested that we move onto discuss transtitions, yet you never said a single thing about them.

No one else seems to have any interest here either (other than Bee), so it looks like this is now officially a dead horse.

James is yet to chime in.  Once he does, the conversation should pick up a little bit again, but I do think it's time to start looking for the "Script Club III" script.

Sounds good.  How can we get James to post his comments, so we can get this thing moving again?

Dreamscale,

Yes, I did bring that up, because some people write really good ones that make the story flow visually and seamlessly from scene to scene. Then someone threw away my paper copy of the script that had my marks on it and to be honest, it's been a while since I read it that I don't have it that fresh in my head. I've been busy with other stuff too, but I can try to take a look again while at work tomorrow.

My guess is that James might be busy at the moment getting ready for school to start again.

..and what the hell do you mean about me getting mad?? I never get mad! Ever! Not very often at all. In fact I haven't been mad since this morning, but that was understandable. My cat threw up on the window sill... and my daughter refused to come over and clean it up!  

Here I am.

I was waiting for this thing to peter out before putting in my two cents. Better people get to keep their own opinions and not be swayed by writers explaining context until the end. That's how I understood this Script Club to work anyway. If that be the case, I agree.

Anyway, it would appear the main issues with the script would be lack of plot, action, transitions/passage of time, and a subjective tone.

The tone is the easiest to explain so I suppose I'll start with that. The implication of almost all Christmas movies (including Bad Santa) is that there's something that comes with Christmas that brings out good will in everybody, even if there was never any good will to exist in the first place. This is complete and utter bullshit. I wanted to do something different, in that any changes in attitude within the characters came from actions or realizations they, themselves, experienced, not just because "it's Christmas." Again, bullshit.

Dreamscale, you've mentioned a few times I should lighten things up a bit here, so as not to leave a bad taste in one's mouth. I'm thinking about expanding Chloe's role. I've actually met people like her before, who are just so positive in their outlook that they never let anything get them down. She's the "light" in the story, so to speak. As for other instances of light moments, it has to come from the characters or I won't have it. Toning down darker elements is one thing but adding in nicities is something else. Coincidentally, I wrote a new ending in which Dylan meets a girl at the psych ward. I chucked it. It didn't work. In the end, it's what works for the script.

I am sorry you didn't like it though. It is supposed to be pretty repugnant and I really pushed myself in not holding back the more serious dramatic elements of the story. It is what it is. Not for everyone, I suppose. I do hope you'll check out my next script though. I am planning a new comedy to serve as something of a sister piece to this one. It's going to have its cynicism and gross moments, like this, but in terms of tone, themes and subject matter, it's going to be the polar opposite of Tis The Season (no pun intended).

You're funny!  Agreed that when cats throw up, it's not the best thing that can happen.  I keep telling mine that if they're going to be sick, just do it on tile, as apposed to carpet...much easier clean up.  I think they're beginning to understand the English language.

At this point, I wouldn't worry about commenting anymore on this.  No one else seems to have much to say, so maybe we should move on, like Shelton said.  Let's wait and see what James has to say, and go from there.

Hi folks, This is a really great thread and a great idea.

I would like to take part in the next one if that is okay Pia? Probably won't get the time to read 'Tis the Season' for the next couple of days. But am away next weekend and as usual will be printing off a couple of features for the plane. If you have any ideas on the next one by then then please let me know what to read. I can really see this being useful as a learning exercise.

Cheers

As for the rest (transition, lack of plot/action/North Pole nonsense), I'm going to have to work on some things. I rewrote Randall and Dylan's first scene in the kitchen so that both characters are more antagonistic and get on each other's nerves a lot more (something I plan to continue). I think I can make a plot around Randall wanting desperately to get out of the program. I might have him calling up Cringle and Chloe for advice so as to expand that part of the story. Also, I think I can make the transition from the two characters not getting along to respecting each other a little smoother and gradual.

As for passage of time, I'm also working on that. Not sure how at the moment though.

Overall, I think you guys have made a lot of good points and helpful comments. So much so, in fact, that I'm kinda overwhelmed. The most frustrating (though not at all bad) advice I get is that there's a bunch of directions I can go in or so many things to explore. Usually when that happens, I haven't a clue where to begin (as is the case now). It's a lot easier when there's stuff in a script that flat out sucks and should be chucked/reworked (or otherwise entail cutting down on the script). With that said, it'll be a while before I do a rewrite.

Anyway, I hoped everyone liked the script, at least somewhat. I knew the idea was kind of a gamble from the start and comedy's not my thing. With my other comedy scripts, I tried all sorts of different styles on comedy. Here, I tried to be more focused and do something a little closer to my personal taste. Unfortunately, dark comedy/satire is a little esoteric.

Thanks a lot to everyone who read and commented. I'll try to get some return reads done as soon as I can but I'm already swamped with those at the moment. Still, the comments have been very helpful so far and will help not only with this one but also my next comedy, which falls into the absolute hardest subgenre anyone can write. Both scripts are going to need a lot of work.

Thanks again to everyone who read. I think I'm starting to like this idea. I'll see if I can't get involved in the next Script Club.

Hey James, glad this helped a bit.  I was worried that we didn't really get much back and forth going, and thought that overall, we didn't really give you alot to work with, but I guess I was wrong.

As for your comments, I think you're on to something in getting some back and forth conversation going with Randall and Chloe and Cringle.  You could cut  in and out of the North Pole during the phone conversation and that would add alot in terms of additional sub plotting, as well as just some different scenery.  As it is now, it's just too much in one setting, which tends to really slow things down.

Best to ya in your rewrites!

Decisions, decisions, decisions thorns in our sides. I do like the additions you plan on making with Randall wanting and creating a plan to get out of the program and Cringle and Chloe in the middle of the script.

Anytime someones goes for comedy they're taking a chance, so bravo. Nothing wrong with testing the waters espically with comedy because you definitely have to find your comedic niche in that.

As for Script Club III, we've already done a comdey and believe script club I was a horror, so we're probably likely to go to a different genre before we start recycling to these.

I'm not familiar with who deserves what as far as reviews go, but I'm going to look over some premise that sound promising and get back to you guys, unless were continuing with 'Tis the Season.'

There was an earlier suggestion for me to throw my script up for Script Club II (or III).  It is horror though, and has not been posted on this site yet.

If we can get enough people to show interest in this forum, I'd be willing to give it a shot.  If not, that's cool as well.

Okay, so should we stick a fork in this one and call it done?

If so, lets have some suggestions for a new script to consider. Some have already offered theirs. Personally I don't care what genre, but I'd like for it to be something written by someone who's an active member on these boards and does not have a script with millions of reviews already. Other than that anything is fine with me.

Let me know what you guys think.  

Honestly, I'd prefer something Action or Sci-Fi since those two genres almost never get read. Then again, that might have something to do with contributing members avoiding said genres. Anyway, just my thoughts. I'll be down for whatever, so long as my next semester isn't as heavy duty as the past two and I actually have time to read.

Let's put somebody in charge here and make a decision.

I am personally not into Sci-Fi or action, but am willing to go with whatever is decided on.

Dreamscale,

Feel free to take the reins. I'm busy begging for funding for a documentary and a reality show. I will read whatever is decided on though.

Btw, wasn't The Cleanup Crew sci-fi/action?

Quoted from Dreamscale Let's put somebody in charge here and make a decision.

Pia has been dubbed the unofficial sponser of script club, but anybody is free to pick up the baton if she does not have time.

I would count 60+ posts as a success.  Sorry I did not have time to participate on this one, James, but I hope you got something useful out of it.

Quoted from Dreamscale There was an earlier suggestion for me to throw my script up for Script Club II (or III).

Your script would have to be posted on the boards, D.S.  I think that is the only point that is not negotiable.

So we will drop the gavel on Script Club II -- I will lock it in a few days, once we are sure everybody is done here -- and this is the link to the discussion thread to use while Script Club is in a holding pattern as interested parties -- anybody is welcome -- decide what to do next.

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-cc/m-1212603825/s-45/

I don't want to be in charge of this, but I will offer my script up.  I have no problem posting it on the boards either.

I have reviewed a ton of scripts in here, and maybe, just maybe, some of those people would like to see what I have to offer and where I'm coming from (or just get the chance to tear my script apart, like I've done in the past).

Bert, do you want to retake the helm here?  I think you did a good job on the first Script Club.  You could probably drum up interest also, as we didn't have many different view points in this last attempt.

Let me know.

[bert's edit:  This thread is for James' script.  Please take general "Script Club" discussion to the "Script Club Discussion Thread".]

Quoted from Grandma Bear Btw, wasn't The Cleanup Crew sci-fi/action?

It had a few sci-fi elements but I got more of a horror/comedy vibe than anything else.

Quoted from Dreamscale I am personally not into Sci-Fi or action, but am willing to go with whatever is decided on.

Not so much me either. I'd just like to check out something new. SS has become more and more of a horror place over the years. Not a bad thing at all, in fact the scripts have gotten better and better and the fanfic numbers have gone down. It's just nice to read something else every now and again. That's why I'm not currently writing horror, to tell you the truth.

  I've visited the sci-fi/action section. It's difficult to pick one because the people who appear to be active poster have had a number of reviews already, and we don't want to go over something with pages of reviews already, do we?
  And alot of the others are between posters with less than 10 posts themselves. Others with no reviews or response by the author so you don't know if they are really active members, and they date back 2006.


When it comes to genre, I'm like good premise is a good premise and good story is a good story. I only stay in the horror section because it has the active people. I too would like to read something other than a horror or comedy. Though I am reading the really good script in the horror section called "Hope Falls" if anybody wants to take a look at that, not for script club just recommedation from me. I'm going to back a survey the sci-fi/action again, there has to be something.