Hot Summer nights is definitely a script with some great writing...good call, Mo.

Mo, the opening you quoted, IMO, is very poory written.  It reads like a novel and for me, it reads poorly, as it's so overwritten.  And, it's not visual writing, either, IMO.

Kev, not trying to start an argument, but your comment about picking any 10 Black List scripts and comapring them to any "amateur" script doesn't work for me at all.

That comment seems to say that some sort of freaky change occurrs when a script goes from amateur to Black List.  What about the Black List scripts before they were on the Black List?  Would they compare to the current crop of Black List scripts?

We all like different kinds of writing for different reasons and that's all fine and cool.  The same goes for movies themselves.

There are many, many worthy scripts flaoting around that have not been read by someone who could make a difference.  The Black List are not the best unproduced scripts.  They're merely 1 man's opinion on the scripts he's read that are unproduced.

Quoted from Dreamscale That comment seems to say that some sort of freaky change occurrs when a script goes from amateur to Black List.  What about the Black List scripts before they were on the Black List?  Would they compare to the current crop of Black List scripts?

Jeff, I think what Kevin is saying is that the writing is why it's on the Black List and is no longer just another amateur script.

Quoted from Mr. Blonde Jeff, I think what Kevin is saying is that the writing is why it's on the Black List and is no longer just another amateur script.

I understand that, but if you seriously want to make a comment in that regard, you need to understand exactly what you're saying.

For anyone to say that every Black List script is better than every other amateur script, is ludicrous, because you never know...one or more of those amatuer scripts may pop up on the Black List, so then it becomes the one to judge all others by.

Is ever NFL Quarterback better than every non NFL Quarterback?  Was Brady Quinn really better than Andrew Luck before Luck was drafted?

I'm sure there are many well written scripts on the Black List and I'm sure many will go on to become good, successful movies, but again, just because a script is on the Black List, that does not make it all powerful and perfect.

Quoted from Dreamscale There are many, many worthy scripts flaoting around that have not been read by someone who could make a difference.  The Black List are not the best unproduced scripts.  They're merely 1 man's opinion on the scripts he's read that are unproduced.

Just to clear something up on the Black List, it's not one man's opinion on the scripts he's read.  They have a pool of about 500 or so Hollywood execs, agents, managers, etc. who are asked to vote for what they think are the best unproduced scripts floating out there.  The scripts that garner the top votes make the list.  Which is not to say that there aren't some unknown scripts out there that are at least as good.  But the Black List ranks the scripts that have been brought to "market."

As for Brady Quinn, yes he was better than Andrew Luck at the time he was drafted.  But only because Luck was in like sixth grade.  

Quoted from Dreamscale For anyone to say that every Black List script is better than every other amateur script, is ludicrous, because you never know...one or more of those amatuer scripts may pop up on the Black List, so then it becomes the one to judge all others by.

He didn't say that.

Quoted from KevinL But that said...the writing is one thing that MOST of the black list scripts have in common. They are generally MUCH better written than even the good amateur scripts.

Every and most are not the same thing. And he's right too.

I am very happy that my double dash question created such a debate that went its own way.

Quoted from Ryan1 Just to clear something up on the Black List, it's not one man's opinion on the scripts he's read.  They have a pool of about 500 or so Hollywood execs, agents, managers, etc. who are asked to vote for what they think are the best unproduced scripts floating out there.  The scripts that garner the top votes make the list.  Which is not to say that there aren't some unknown scripts out there that are at least as good.  But the Black List ranks the scripts that have been brought to "market." As for Brady Quinn, yes he was better than Andrew Luck at the time he was drafted.  But only because Luck was in like sixth grade.

So, when you say, "brought to market", what exactly do you mean by that?

If a "great" script is read by someone that matters, who can do something with that great script, I would imagine that it would be optioned, or that writer would be taken on by that Agency, ProdCo, whatever it is.

Kev's comments above...and for years, actually, always state the same thing - a Black List script is head and shoulders above any amateur script you could compare it to, and I just don't beleive that in any way, shape, or form.

I hear what you're saying and you're correct about 500 or so Pros doing the voting.

It appears about 225 Black List scripts have been filmed - do you or anyone else have a list of these films?  I'd love to see it and we could have more discussion over just how great these scripts really were.

As for Brady Quinn and Andrew Luck, I have to assume you're jesting in your response.  If not, my point is that just because someone is a Pro, that doesn't mean a non-Pro can't come in and immediately be "better".  There are lots and lots of Pro players making Millions of dollars each year, who could easily be outsourced by college level players before they enter the draft.  Of course, this line of reasoning has nothing to do with Pro writers and amateur writers, but I think there is some sort of relationship that all can understand...hopefully.

When I say brought to market I simply mean the script has entered into this world of execs, agents, and prodcos and is being passed around town.  

I don't have a list of the Black List scripts that have been filmed.  Frankly that 225 number seems surprisingly high to me.  

Yeah, kidding about Brady Quinn.  He's not fit to hold a clipboard, let alone QB a team.  But I think your point would have been better made if you used an undrafted QB in comparison to a first rounder like Quinn.  Kurt Warner was stacking soup cans in a grocery store while a lot of bums were being paid millions in the NFL.

Quoted from Ryan1 Kurt Warner was stacking soup cans in a grocery store while a lot of bums were being paid millions in the NFL.

Well put...a perfect example.  Kurt rocked!!!

As I said, and as J.S. pointed out...MOST black list scripts are written substantially better than MOST amateur scripts. There are some amateur scripts that have fantastic writing, there are some black list scripts that have pretty weak writing.

What's a shame is that there are some talented amateur writers who are not reaching their potential because they've had rules hammered into their head by gurus, other amateurs and even some agents...rules that take tools out of the writer's hand and therefore result in writing which is not what it could be...and which does not reach the levels that the pros do.

But by all means, this is a competitive field, so if writers want to limit themselves...I guess it's ok.

A weakly written black list script is not weak because it broke "rules"...but because the writing was not effective.

Quoted from KevinLenihan As I said, and as J.S. pointed out...MOST black list scripts are written substantially better than MOST amateur scripts.

OK, I'm not going to go back and play quote this and quote that, but IMO, what you were saying and what you have said in the past, is implying that you could take any 10 Black List scripts and compare them to any 10 amateur scripts and it would be simple to see why the Black List scripts are much better than the amateur scripts.

But maybe I took what you said incorrectly.

But, let's quickly focus on your above quote.

I would hope that MOST Black List scripts are written better than MOST amateur scripts.  Most amateur scripts are terribly written and most are written by peeps who have no clue what they're doing.

My point is really quite simple and it has nothing to do with writing asides, we see, we hear, overwriting, poor Slug use, or any of "the tools" that are available to any and all writers.

It's that "any" writer can write a great script, and even a Black List script.  The big difference between these "amateurs" and the Black List writers is the difficulty in being seen and taken seriously by those powers that be that rule the film industry, or just serve as gate keepers.

Just because a script is on some year's Black List, get's optioned, gets sold, or gets turned into a movie, doesn't necessarily mean it's a great script or better than any other script that doesn't get any of the above.

Quoted from Ryan1 I don't have a list of the Black List scripts that have been filmed.  Frankly that 225 number seems surprisingly high to me.

"Over 225 Black List screenplays have been made as feature films."


http://www.blcklst.com/about/

As I said, take any 10 black list scripts...and make your own list of the top 10 amateur scripts here. Some of the scripts here might end up being better, but that's the exception that proves the rule.

There is a very, very strange notion that floats around in certain corners of this board. That idea seems to hold that scripts that make the black list, or spec scripts that actually get sold, only do so because the writer is connected, or because it was a can't miss concept, etc.

No.

Those scripts...in general...are significantly better written. When it comes to the black list, it's more the writing that sets them apart then anything else, because frankly, some of the story concepts are pretty out there.

Many people make the mistake...and I'm sorry, but there's no other word for it...of thinking those scripts are poorly written because they open them up and see "rules" broken.

When we first begin writing, and I mean our very early work, we are wisely given guiding rules...such as don't direct the shot, don't use we see, don't write unfilmables. And we're also told to avoid flashback, avoid V.O.

This is all great advice for the new writer.

But if a writer is to reach his/her full potential, he has to graduate to understanding there are no rules...only tools. At that point you take your writing to another level...the kind of writing that is much in evidence with black list scripts, Nicholls winners, and pro scripts.

The notion that the pro's somehow have it wrong is very strange. Would an amateur golfer tell a seasoned pro he's doing it all wrong? Would an amateur golfer...or baseball player, or musician...think he had nothing to learn from a pro? Of course not...but with screenwriters, in certain circles, this seems to be a common approach. It's very strange.

Quoted from LC And...careful what you try to lock in a suitcase and throw in the oven! I love that avatar SC, brings back some scary memories of watching that ep. of Trilogy of Terror - such a classic!

Oh yes, the Trilogy of Terror.  That was some scary shit for network television back in 1975, and shame on my parents for letting me watch it!  That's a long way back, but I'm sure I must have spent a couple sleepless nights thinking that stupid doll might be under my bed.

Steve

p.s.  I like dashes, use em all the time.