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I'll say it again, the best way to write is to side with the reader.
Objective writing is essential to clear presentation. This includes writing techniques that are learned, practiced, and mastered. And screenwriting is a entirely different craft. You don't have the luxury of defining abstract writing, rather, you have to achieve visuals that provide the path of least resistance to the reader.
Beats, dashes, wrylies, and "we see" are a part of this craft, whether you choose to use them or not. I believe the controversy with them is they have the tendency to promote lazy writing, and there is a lot of evidence out there to prove it.
I don't think anybody with an ounce of originality about them should write like their favorite pro. However, it is invaluable to read pro scripts (something that's produced) and learn from it.
Never read a pro script and probably never will. I've read thousands of books though. Writing a screenplay is no different once you learn some simple rules. pHuck how the pro's do it. I do things my way.
I have looked at pro scripts and I just don't see what everyone gets excited about. I didn't even bother to read Tarantino's Hateful 8... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz. I read two pages.
I couldn't care less about anyone else's scripts... unless I know and like the author. The rest can screw themselves... pro or no.
And that's all well and good. Mostly, at this point, I'll read a pro script because I want to, not because I need to. But that doesn't mean I won't read it with a writer's eye, either.
As far as it being an invaluable tool, I meant it from an inexperienced writer's POV, who would like to see how it's done--correctly. That's not to say amateur scripts are incorrect. A lot of them are written extremely well.
Bottom line, as far as I'm concerned, is that the learning process never stops.
I learned from pro scripts. Mistake on my part. I should have learned from spec scripts here on the site because spec scripts read better than pro scripts, and offer a much simpler example as to how scripts function.
This is a common mistake that many amateur writers make, I've made it myself. When they first begin writing, they research scripts of classic movies they are familiar with. So the writing is of an older style or might be a shooting draft or something the studio puts out for the public.
What the aspiring writer needs to do is get relatively current scripts, especially spec scripts that have drawn attention or been produced. I can direct anyone interested to where these can be obtained, PM me.
And can we please stop saying this is about emulating anyone?
It's not. When you read, you learn. You decide which things might be useful to use. Just like ANY profession.
In fact, I'm not aware myself of ever emulating any one writer or technique. The way it works with me is that I am very conscious if a certain technique is not effective. That causes me to experiment on my own, try to find what works best. THEN I often notice something similar done in a pro script and it affirms that I was on the right track. But it's a process that involves thinking things through, not copying.
It's never about emulating. Jeff seems to think it's about taking a famous writer and copying a style simply because he's famous. He should know better. One of my more annoying qualities is that I question anyone and everything, pro and amateur. He knows this, but forgets. I look at techniques used by pros and amateurs and bring the same critical approach. If it works, cool. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Everything I do, good or bad, is with a clear purpose. In the end it might not be the best way,but I think it through. There's no mindless emulation.
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If you're referring to Kevin's example of Inglorious Bastards, I completely understand, but let's also understand that there are numerous ways to show this, without using "we see".
This is VERY revealing. It's a rules based approach. Jeff is saying here that we should avoid "we see" not because it's a less efficient way of doing it...but because it annoys the rules people, so it's worth bending over backwards to describe the shot without using "we see".
That really reveals in a nut shell how it works with the rules crowd. It starts out rational: don't use 'we see' because it's a wasteful way to describe what we plainly see. But from that, it becomes a rule, and as a result, in situations where 'we see' is most efficient, they end up doing cartwheels to avoid using it, and the result can ironically be more wordy or less clear.
I don't even know if that scene was written with 'we see', it's just a hypothetical.
Where Jeff and I agree: it's about what works best.
Where we differ: it's about what's "correct"or "incorrect".
Because sometimes what's "incorrect" is what's best.
If the shot can be described clearly without 'we see'...that's best.
But if we see is not only the clearest, but the most efficient way to describe a shot necessary for the film, then why not use it?
There are other style choices the write might make which go beyond the logic of the blue print approach.
For example, this:
The tanker skids of the bridge and explodes on the cliffs.
or
The tanker skids of the bridge and - BOOM! - explodes on the cliffs.
Or here's one from a script I just opened from the Hit List written by an old member from here known as Mr. Z...an outstanding writer.
Laughter behind the door. Cut short as --
WHAM! - Lance KICKS the door!
A rules guy might ask...why do we need the WHAM? The door is described as being kicked, isn't that enough?
The answer is that many writers have found that this is an effective way to help the reader see this as a movie. It's not covered by the rules...but it's excellent technique...technique which has proven effective.
Two more quick points. First, I think the fact is that most amateurs who take this position that pro level scripts are not worth reading...have not read many pro scripts. They will deny this, but it's true. They've read some famous ones here and there, and maybe a long time ago. But that's it.
An aspiring writer who wants to master his craft should at least open and read part of several pro level scripts a week. I've never once met a person who finally agreed to do this and didn't come back and thank me later. Never. Like any profession, we need to be constantly learning. If a writer doesn't think he needs to keep learning, I hope his last name is Coppola or Weinstein, because he's at a serious disadvantage.
The second point: rules are comforting. They are. That's why people dig them so much. Jeff doesn't like the people who follow structure rules, like the Save the Catters...but it's the same darn thing. The STC people feel they are getting closer because each one of their scripts follows the model. It's comforting to think you've mastered some aspect of it. And it's the same with screenwriting rules. It's the same with many things in life...it's comforting to have boundaries.
To break through in this business, good ain't enough. You have to be elite...best of the best. Playing within the rules...whether Save the Cat or writing rules, a writer can be pretty good. But he will never be elite. He will get comfortable. He won't test boundaries. He will feel satisfied he knows what he needs to know. That is not the path to being elite.
Two more quick points. First, I think the fact is that most amateurs who take this position that pro level scripts are not worth reading...have not read many pro scripts. They will deny this, but it's true. They've read some famous ones here and there, and maybe a long time ago. But that's it.
I haven't read any pro scripts. The only reason I read amateur ones is because it is good practise for editing and spotting mistakes in my own. I'm a writer, not a reader. I read easily over a thousand books until I stopped reading. Now my reading is only about facts. Facts that I can relate through fiction. I don't need to read anyone else.
An aspiring writer who wants to master his craft should at least open and read part of several pro level scripts a week. I've never once met a person who finally agreed to do this and didn't come back and thank me later. Never. Like any profession, we need to be constantly learning. If a writer doesn't think he needs to keep learning, I hope his last name is Coppola or Weinstein, because he's at a serious disadvantage.
I started learning the moment I was born. I don't need to read screenplays to educate myself. I read history, philosophy or science then translate that into my stories. Learning to write stories is for kids. Real education comes from actual study. Reading another guy's screenplay isn't an education for anyone over twenty. There are plenty of books and forums like this around to help one with format.
To break through in this business, good ain't enough. You have to be elite...best of the best. Playing within the rules...whether Save the Cat or writing rules, a writer can be pretty good. But he will never be elite. He will get comfortable. He won't test boundaries. He will feel satisfied he knows what he needs to know. That is not the path to being elite.
I'd say that was partly true... but that is how it should be. However, there are plenty of mediocre writers in this business... as is evident from the shite put on our screens over and over again. Escape Plan is a good example of terrible scrip writing and poor story planning. Whoever wrote that was no pro'. Well, they are obviously a pro... what I mean is, they are not elite. It IS about who you know... you have to be elite AND know people.
I started learning the moment I was born. I don't need to read screenplays to educate myself. I read history, philosophy or science then translate that into my stories. Learning to write stories is for kids. Real education comes from actual study. Reading another guy's screenplay isn't an education for anyone over twenty. There are plenty of books and forums like this around to help one with format.
Of course you should read other things to advance your knowledge and imagination: philosophy, psychology, poetry, science news, history, mythology.
But to assume that you have mastered the writing craft because you've digested all the "how to" books is not a professional approach.
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Reading another guy's screenplay isn't an education for anyone over twenty. There are plenty of books and forums like this around to help one with format.
The statement is so foolish I'm not sure if I should waste much more time with you. I don't mean that to be provocative or an insult, either. I'm just just being honest. Wiser people than me would look at that and say don't waste time with this guy.
Do you think successful fiction writers, such as Stephen King or Hemingway, stopped reading books at age 20? Do you think that successful musicians stopped listening to and being influenced by other musicians? Do you think artists don't examine others paintings?
- If one spends more time reading other peoples screenplays than writing...yes, that's poor use of a writer's time.
- If any writer, certainly an amateur, thinks they have nothing more to learn as far as craftsmanship, that's silly. It would probably be silly for a pro to say that, but for any of us to say that it's absurd.
- While there are things to be learned from reading other amateur scripts, it's very strange to think there is more to learn from amateur scripts than pro scripts. How is it that screenwriting seems to be the only field where so many amateurs seem to think that there's more to learn from amateurs than from pros? It's bizarre. You don't find that in any other field. It's statements like Dustin's which make a lot of talented writers move on from this forum. No one who has a future in this field thinks like that. You're going to get pissed at me for saying it and start hurling jabs...fine...but do me a favor first: read the first 10 pages of a different pro level script every day for the next 2 weeks. Try to do 2 a day, so 20 pages a day. We're talking 10 or 20 minutes a day. A small sacrifice. If after 2 weeks, you still believe there is nothing to learn, then come back here and fire off the best insults you can come up with.
OK, done with the thread. Getting old, using to much time. Enjoy the weekend everyone!
But to assume that you have mastered the writing craft because you've digested all the "how to" books is not a professional approach.
Writing a story is simple. I write a story with a beginning a middle and an end. I mastered the art of telling stories years before I ever picked up a how to book on screenplay writing. The how to books on screenplay writing merely taught me the correct structure.
I learned to write through reading lots and lots of books. Books tell stories too... only they utilise a greater amount of the English language to do it. When I read a book I would visualise everything in my mind... to me it was the same as watching a film.
The statement is so foolish I'm not sure if I should waste much more time with you. I don't mean that to be provocative or an insult, either. I'm just just being honest. Wiser people than me would look at that and say don't waste time with this guy.
Taken within context it makes perfect sense... you just lack the nous - as usual - to see it. Where's the education in a screenplay? They're about drama... not a documentary. Once you know how to tell a story then reading another guy's screenplay isn't going to help educate anyone. Indeed they can serve to misinform... due to artistic license.
There are only so many stories one can tell. With books and films combined every one of us will have seen the same stories told thousands of times. Same old, same old stories. Now my interests lie not with copying other writers... as I did a lot of in my youth... but with reading facts and translating those facts into fiction. I also like adaptations of famous old stories... change them up, remix them. I haven't read a work of fiction in years... and have no interest in doing so. You may believe that that means I will stay an amateur, but I can assure you that you don't know what you're talking about. I know all of the stories already... now it's time to share mine.
Do you think successful fiction writers, such as Stephen King or Hemingway, stopped reading books at age 20? Do you think that successful musicians stopped listening to and being influenced by other musicians? Do you think artists don't examine others paintings?
I couldn't care less what any of those artists do. Nor do I care what you consider an artist should do to be successful. Who are you?
- If any writer, certainly an amateur, thinks they have nothing more to learn as far as craftsmanship, that's silly. It would probably be silly for a pro to say that, but for any of us to say that it's absurd.
Why is it more absurd for any of us to say that? The way you talk about pro's is silly. You think they're some type of elite writers because they got paid to write their last script when half of them are shit. You have bullshit in your eyes mate.
When I read a book I would visualise everything in my mind... to me it was the same as watching a film.
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...translating those facts into fiction.
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I know all of the stories already... now it's time to share mine.
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I started learning the moment I was born. I don't need to read screenplays to educate myself.
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Learning to write stories is for kids.
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Never read a pro script and probably never will. I've read thousands of books though. Writing a screenplay is no different once you learn some simple rules. pHuck how the pro's do it. I do things my way.
Margarine, being just one molecule away from plastic, has many common uses. Most known for "spreading on bread", this wonder of science and deliciousness has one use that most food-lovers don't know about -- the screenplay.
Yes the screenplay, but who would've thought to actually use it for writing? In the small town of Tinderton, one rebel screenwriter has come forward with a new way of writing, and is now on Hollywood's radar.
His name is Tootsie McBooty.
We sat down with Mr. McBooty to get a glimpse of just how margarine not only breaks the boundaries of a script, but what the mind of a genius looks like. It was shocking...
"I just spread all over," chuckles Tootsie. "Not only my scripts, my entire body. Fellow writers say I'm on a slippery slope, but it's a helluva lot better than butter."
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