I saw where Dawkins was coming from. Unless there is indeed no God, there's gonna be a whole lotta people... like billions, who are gonna be eternally fucked. Seeing as there's no way of knowing what comes after death and everything you do or don't do is a gamble, why compromise your beliefs? If I'm wrong, I think I'll just be sad to have lived in a world where people were eternally punished for taking a chance.

That said...

Quoted from kev this thread was just a can of worms.

Total can of worms. I threw in my two cents because this is the first proper thread for religion I can remember popping up and it seems like Mr. Blonde has some good intentions. I actually thought we were off to a good start for a moment there. But I think when all's said and done, we're just gonna fragments of a genuine discussion, a bunch of Bible passages no one reads and some links that only serve to dump more nightcrawlers on the table... as always.

So I'm out. People always end up saying what I would say anyway.

So what is the point of this thread?

If it is to bash Christianity and make it defend itself, that is a silly purpose, and this will be a short-lived discussion.

I am not a Christian.  I am just saying lets not go round in circles.

People bitch that we shut down adult topics and serious discussions.

Well, let's have an adult discussion then.  I hate having to monitor threads that are of little interest to me.

Quoted from dogglebe and soon I'm a-gonna open a can of whoop-ass!

Phil, you ain't gonna open nothin' unless He allows it.  

Sez you.



Phil

And screenrider, I know what you are trying to do, and I am sure your intentions are pure, but all you are doing is setting yourself up as a target for this discussion.

The topic is religion.  Bring something to the table besides, "find Christ".

Some proof, outside the Bible, would be nice.


Phil

Quoted from James McClung Total can of worms. I threw in my two cents because this is the first proper thread for religion I can remember popping up and it seems like Mr. Blonde has some good intentions. I actually thought we were off to a good start for a moment there. But I think when all's said and done, we're just gonna fragments of a genuine discussion, a bunch of Bible passages no one reads and some links that only serve to dump more nightcrawlers on the table... as always. So I'm out. People always end up saying what I would say anyway.

I just wanted to have a post where people could discuss their opinions and beliefs. The trouble is, eventually, someone (doesn't matter who. It's always someone) will comes along and tries to preach their beliefs or lack thereof.

Let's face facts. No one is going to change anyone else's opinion. So, state what you believe. Apply to real-world events or discuss how you came to believe what you do. I think this can get back on track and avoid becoming just another flame war.

Quoted from bert So what is the point of this thread? If it is to bash Christianity and make it defend itself, that is a silly purpose, and this will be a short-lived discussion. I am not a Christian.  I am just saying lets not go round in circles. People bitch that we shut down adult topics and serious discussions. Well, let's have an adult discussion then.  I hate having to monitor threads that are of little interest to me.

It had nothing to do with bashing anything. My reasons are posted above. However, like I said, if it gets off-track too badly, by all means, shut it down. That's the last thing I'd want is for people to fight because of this.

Quoted from Takeshi I put it in there because Screenrider was tossing up the “what if you're wrong argument.” So I think the video was apt. Dawkin's point was that people who are prone to be religious usually pick their brand of religion based on its dominance of their culture. Not because it’s more plausible than any other religion If you want a more detailed argument checkout the link in my second post. It's a beauty.

I'll give the second one a read, for sure. I understood what he was saying, and it was all sort of surface; I was just hoping he might've displayed a little more humility with his answers. I actually agree that societal precedents play the biggest role in our spiritual growth, so I guess I just wanted to hear him say he could be wrong, as we all can be.

I'm personally Agnostic, so have no vested interest, but hope to read some interesting views.

Andrew

Quoted from screenrider If I'm wrong about Jesus then I got nothing to lose, Phil.  But if you're wrong then you got everything to lose...for eternity.

Getting back this argument. It's just another version of Pascal's Wager.

Here's the wiki page on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager

And here's a discussion about it on the Richard Dawkins website:

http://richarddawkins.net/articles/1789

  

Quoted from bert The topic is religion.  Bring something to the table besides, "find Christ".

Fair enough.  I'll share my own personal experience.   For years I was a hardcore methamphetamine addict.  Crack, crime, decadence, you name it I was into it.   One night after being up for six days on meth, I encountered what I can only describe as demonic activity.   Something supernatural.  An evil spirit.   And it was in my apartment.

Now any psychiatrist would tell you what I was experiencing was nothing more than meth-induced psychosis.  But it wasn't.  This thing physically wrote shit on my mirror.  It toyed with my mind for hours until I finally figured out what it was.  It was a demon.  Straight up.  

Prior to that I had never even really thought about God, nor did I care.   But once you experience something like that, it's not hard to believe Jesus was telling the truth when he spoke about demons and angels, and heaven and hell...in the Bible.  

I know for a fact, it's real. Very real. There is a fourth dimension.
There is an afterlife.  And Jesus is Lord.  All things were made by Him, for Him and Through Him, and nothing exists without Him. Everyday I experience coincidences that are too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence.  I call them "God winks".  His hand of providence guiding me.  And that's my testimony.  

Bottom line, I hope and pray you too will learn the truth, but without having to take a major ass-kicking like I had to.  Jesus says ask and it will be given; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened.  Matthew 7:7.

...find Christ

Quoted from Mr. Blonde So, state what you believe. Apply to real-world events or discuss how you came to believe what you do. I think this can get back on track and avoid becoming just another flame war.

You're right.  I deleted my other post to avoid flame war involvement haha.  Here are my thoughts:

While I'm Jewish and like what the religion is about, I've kinda made up my own beliefs over the years.  I like to believe there is a God, I like to believe in an afterlife, and I like to think that as long as you're a good person then the afterlife will bring great things to you, whatever the afterlife actually is.  That's pretty much my whole religious philosophy right there.  I don't think it matters what you believe or how you believe - as long as you live life to the fullest and are a good person then you've got it made.  

I think our lives are what we make them to be and I don't believe God, whoever this being is, punishes people for believing in different ways.  I recognize I could be very wrong, but this belief system makes me feel good, so I'm happy with it.  

-Greg

I see things are going well... even very similar to the other 58 threads like it in the past.

I think I'll go write my script now while watching news about Haiti.

Anyone remember the Homosexuality thread? Wonder if someone's going to defend alsatian sex here, too...

Quoted from screenrider Fair enough.  I'll share my own personal experience.   For years I was a hardcore methamphetamine addict.  Crack, crime, decadence, you name it I was into it.   One night after being up for six days on meth, I encountered what I can only describe as demonic activity.   An evil spirit.   And it was in my apartment. Now any psychiatrist would tell you what I was experiencing was nothing more than meth-induced psychosis.  But it wasn't.  This thing physically wrote shit on my mirror.  It toyed with my mind for hours until I finally figured out what it was.  It was a demon.  Straight up.   Prior to that I had never even really thought about God, nor did I care.   But once you experience something like that, it's not hard to believe Jesus was telling the truth when he spoke about demons and angels, and heaven and hell...in the Bible.   I know for a fact, it's real. Very real. There is a fourth dimension. There is an afterlife.  And Jesus is Lord.  All things were made by Him, for Him and Through Him, and nothing exists without Him. Everyday I experience coincidences that are too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence.  I call them "God winks".  His hand of providence guiding me.  And that's my testimony.   Bottom line, I hope and pray you too will learn the truth, but without having to take a major ass-kicking like I had to.  Jesus says ask and it will be given; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened.  Matthew 7:7. ...find Christ

I had a similar experience on acid when I was 21. I took a really strong micro dot and stared at a white concrete wall with a light in the middle of it for hours on end. As I stared at it the circle of life began to swirl around and around the light. At the bottom of the wall was a river and I saw creatures climbing out of the river and “evolving” into land creatures. As they went up the left side of the circle they were entwined with each other like a wreath. As they hit the top of circle and went down the right side of the wall they began to wither and die. Their corpses and bones lay at the bottom of the wall on the right side of the river, as more and more creatures continued to crawl out of the left side of the river. I watched this for awhile and then I began to stare at the light in the middle of the wall. It turned into a tunnel. I stared into the tunnel and began to travel down the tunnel which seemed to be made out of clouds. I followed the twists and turns of the tunnel for how long I couldn't say. Eventually I reached the end of the tunnel and came out into a massive canyon. In the distance I saw a stone hut, kinda like the ones in The Flintstones, sitting on a ledge. I drifted towards the hut. I reached the hunt and went through its dark entrance and then................the trip stopped.

This is probably my favourite atheist quote:

"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts

Being that I stand about as in the middle as you can get, I'm going to chime in here.

Going back and forth asking for proof that God exists, Jesus is the savior, Buddha was husky, etc...isn't really going to get anyone anywhere for one simple reason...

Faith.

Those here who adhere to a certain religion have their beliefs, and they're all rooted in a faith that what you've been taught is true.

I'm Catholic.  I was raised Catholic, and I still adhere to those beliefs.  Am I such a strict Catholic that I don't use birth control, spout off the occasional swear word, or treat my body like a temple?  Absolutely not, but I do adhere to the Ten Commandments the best way I'm capable of.

Despite my religious beliefs, I don't feel the need to beat people over the head with them.  

Adults are fully capable of making up their own minds, and I don't have a dark and storied past that I feel hard pressed to make amends with.