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I'm going to take a shot on this one as there was support for it and support against it. I probably wouldn't have but I've seen the people here be civil enough to handle this properly.
It goes without saying that if it starts to get out of hand, that Bert should shut it down. I think it'll be ok, though, at least for the first few pages.
So, let's have it. It's all about organized religion in any fom (except Scientology, which already has a thread in the General section) and any dissemination.
My main interest when it comes to religion is suicide.
But, as Screenrider brought up, it may also be a very good time to mention the earthquake in Haiti.
So, let's discuss. What are everyone's thoughts and what would everyone like to talk about?
Phil, it's not about changing people's minds. It's about getting a different person's point of view. Because you can fake it, but all you really have is your own point of view. It just seems like a nice change of pace to hear a different person out, right?
Besides, I think there's some people here who would want to discuss something like this.
There's no point in discussing religion, here. It's not as if any of us can convert anyone else his or her way here. Phil
Attention: Sock Puppet --> (The definition of General Chat) Talk about anything that you would like not related to screenwriting.
Go for it, Mr. Blonde. There couldn't possibly be a better time than there is now to discuss this subject. I.E., in the wake of the recent Haiti tragedy.
Dogmatic religion=Bad Healthy questioning spirituality= Good. Not much more to be said....
There's actually a lot to be said, Decadence. Are you confident that your spirtuality will get you into heaven after you die? If your answer is yes, then basically you're telling God, sending his son Jesus to die on the cross as a propitiation for our sins was a huge waste of time. That's a pretty bold statement.
On the contrary, you would only have nothing to lose if there is no God whatsoever. If you worship the wrong religion, you would be just as screwed as we non-believers.
Is it an actual fact that Jesus Christ existed? I never understood and thought there were several possibilities:
Jesus was real but just an ordinary guy? Jesus was real and our Savior? Jesus was a part of the Bible and can be proven he existed? Jesus was a part of the Bible but cannot be proven whether or not he actually existed?
Personally, I'm an atheist and frankly, religion has no impact on my life whatsoever, good or bad. My best friend was a hardcore Christian growing up and still has belief. So far, our difference in belief has been a complete non-issue. If I had to give an opinion on the subject, it would've already been stated by Decadence above but it really has no influence in my realms. Coincidentally, I used to be Catholic. I was baptized, did a holy communion and went to Sunday school. My family stopped going when I was still a kid after they started talking to kindergardeners about partial-birth abortion. My family's beliefs have remained varied since.
As a screenwriting device, I think religion is fantastic. By that, I mean something to write about, not a means to convert people. Religion is such a deeply personal phenomenon which varies from person to person and, as it is in real life, is ripe for conflict. My horror script House of God featured five or six characters each with completely different religious views which made their interactions very interesting to write. I'm planning to rewrite it this year with four more years of both writing and personal experience and further expand on those interactions.
Really good link there, Chris. A good stimulating video that.
Personally, I thought Dawkins was unnecessarily defensive, no? I mean, he didn't answer the question and stated that "if Indian, you'd be Hindu". Well, my ex who is Indian is Christian, so not sure what she'd say about that. I understand he was shooting from the hip, so, it's easy to stereotype, yet he was hardly convincing either.
It's pretty obvious stating we're a product of our culture, family and time, thus our religion may reflect that - yet, that's basics, Rich, so please embellish and tell us: what's your point?
It's a sad state of affairs when people can talk about blood, guts and boobs all day long and nobody bats an eye, but the minute someone mentions Jesus people are up in arms about it. Unless of course you're using is name as a cuss word. And then it's all good.
Getting back to Jesus for a moment, we know he existed because the historian Josephus records it.
As far as proof he's divine - obviously religion is a matter of faith, so we leave that where it is...
Interestingly enough - and screenwriter can correct me if I have my facts a bit blurry - the gospel of Mark, widely recognized as the earliest, represents Jesus as more of a faith healer than anything else.
I believe there's also a passage where he says something to the effect that his family (brothers, sisters - I forget the exact phrase) do not believe in him.
The other significant thing about Mark is that if you go back to the earliest known copies (I believe written in ancient Greek), he gives us an empty tomb at the end of his gospel. The best historical wisdom is that the sighting of the resurrected Jesus by Mary Magdalene (or the apostles? it's been a while dudes) was added afterward to conform to the other 3 gospels.
Remember, the New Testament was assembled basically on the orders of Constantine, some 300 years after Jesus died. When the emperor says to you "okay, your religion is no longer illegal - oh, and by the way, I want a copy of your "manuscript" on my desk by 5:00 next week - you scramble to put one together. You also include the most "establishment friendly" books, since you do not want to run the risk of irking the emperor. Which is why some of the more revolutionary books (Thomas, Judas, etc.) were left out.
Really good link there, Chris. A good stimulating video that.
Personally, I thought Dawkins was unnecessarily defensive, no? I mean, he didn't answer the question and stated that "if Indian, you'd be Hindu". Well, my ex who is Indian is Christian, so not sure what she'd say about that. I understand he was shooting from the hip, so, it's easy to stereotype, yet he was hardly convincing either.
It's pretty obvious stating we're a product of our culture, family and time, thus our religion may reflect that - yet, that's basics, Rich, so please embellish and tell us: what's your point?
Andrew
I put it in there because Screenrider was tossing up the “what if you're wrong argument.” So I think the video was apt. Dawkin's point was that people who are prone to be religious usually pick their brand of religion based on its dominance of their culture. Not because it’s more plausible than any other religion
If you want a more detailed argument checkout the link in my second post. It's a beauty.
Screenrider, posting random statements from the Bible carries no weight with me. Nor is it an argument. Where’s your evidence to support the claim that God exists and his will for us is detailed in the Bible and that when people die they go to heaven or hell?
I saw where Dawkins was coming from. Unless there is indeed no God, there's gonna be a whole lotta people... like billions, who are gonna be eternally fucked. Seeing as there's no way of knowing what comes after death and everything you do or don't do is a gamble, why compromise your beliefs? If I'm wrong, I think I'll just be sad to have lived in a world where people were eternally punished for taking a chance.
Total can of worms. I threw in my two cents because this is the first proper thread for religion I can remember popping up and it seems like Mr. Blonde has some good intentions. I actually thought we were off to a good start for a moment there. But I think when all's said and done, we're just gonna fragments of a genuine discussion, a bunch of Bible passages no one reads and some links that only serve to dump more nightcrawlers on the table... as always.
So I'm out. People always end up saying what I would say anyway.
And screenrider, I know what you are trying to do, and I am sure your intentions are pure, but all you are doing is setting yourself up as a target for this discussion.
The topic is religion. Bring something to the table besides, "find Christ".
Total can of worms. I threw in my two cents because this is the first proper thread for religion I can remember popping up and it seems like Mr. Blonde has some good intentions. I actually thought we were off to a good start for a moment there. But I think when all's said and done, we're just gonna fragments of a genuine discussion, a bunch of Bible passages no one reads and some links that only serve to dump more nightcrawlers on the table... as always.
So I'm out. People always end up saying what I would say anyway.
I just wanted to have a post where people could discuss their opinions and beliefs. The trouble is, eventually, someone (doesn't matter who. It's always someone) will comes along and tries to preach their beliefs or lack thereof.
Let's face facts. No one is going to change anyone else's opinion. So, state what you believe. Apply to real-world events or discuss how you came to believe what you do. I think this can get back on track and avoid becoming just another flame war.
Quoted from bert
So what is the point of this thread?
If it is to bash Christianity and make it defend itself, that is a silly purpose, and this will be a short-lived discussion.
I am not a Christian. I am just saying lets not go round in circles.
People bitch that we shut down adult topics and serious discussions.
Well, let's have an adult discussion then. I hate having to monitor threads that are of little interest to me.
It had nothing to do with bashing anything. My reasons are posted above. However, like I said, if it gets off-track too badly, by all means, shut it down. That's the last thing I'd want is for people to fight because of this.
I put it in there because Screenrider was tossing up the “what if you're wrong argument.” So I think the video was apt. Dawkin's point was that people who are prone to be religious usually pick their brand of religion based on its dominance of their culture. Not because it’s more plausible than any other religion
If you want a more detailed argument checkout the link in my second post. It's a beauty.
I'll give the second one a read, for sure. I understood what he was saying, and it was all sort of surface; I was just hoping he might've displayed a little more humility with his answers. I actually agree that societal precedents play the biggest role in our spiritual growth, so I guess I just wanted to hear him say he could be wrong, as we all can be.
I'm personally Agnostic, so have no vested interest, but hope to read some interesting views.
The topic is religion. Bring something to the table besides, "find Christ".
Fair enough. I'll share my own personal experience. For years I was a hardcore methamphetamine addict. Crack, crime, decadence, you name it I was into it. One night after being up for six days on meth, I encountered what I can only describe as demonic activity. Something supernatural. An evil spirit. And it was in my apartment.
Now any psychiatrist would tell you what I was experiencing was nothing more than meth-induced psychosis. But it wasn't. This thing physically wrote shit on my mirror. It toyed with my mind for hours until I finally figured out what it was. It was a demon. Straight up.
Prior to that I had never even really thought about God, nor did I care. But once you experience something like that, it's not hard to believe Jesus was telling the truth when he spoke about demons and angels, and heaven and hell...in the Bible.
I know for a fact, it's real. Very real. There is a fourth dimension. There is an afterlife. And Jesus is Lord. All things were made by Him, for Him and Through Him, and nothing exists without Him. Everyday I experience coincidences that are too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence. I call them "God winks". His hand of providence guiding me. And that's my testimony.
Bottom line, I hope and pray you too will learn the truth, but without having to take a major ass-kicking like I had to. Jesus says ask and it will be given; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened. Matthew 7:7.
So, state what you believe. Apply to real-world events or discuss how you came to believe what you do. I think this can get back on track and avoid becoming just another flame war.
You're right. I deleted my other post to avoid flame war involvement haha. Here are my thoughts:
While I'm Jewish and like what the religion is about, I've kinda made up my own beliefs over the years. I like to believe there is a God, I like to believe in an afterlife, and I like to think that as long as you're a good person then the afterlife will bring great things to you, whatever the afterlife actually is. That's pretty much my whole religious philosophy right there. I don't think it matters what you believe or how you believe - as long as you live life to the fullest and are a good person then you've got it made.
I think our lives are what we make them to be and I don't believe God, whoever this being is, punishes people for believing in different ways. I recognize I could be very wrong, but this belief system makes me feel good, so I'm happy with it.
Fair enough. I'll share my own personal experience. For years I was a hardcore methamphetamine addict. Crack, crime, decadence, you name it I was into it. One night after being up for six days on meth, I encountered what I can only describe as demonic activity. An evil spirit. And it was in my apartment.
Now any psychiatrist would tell you what I was experiencing was nothing more than meth-induced psychosis. But it wasn't. This thing physically wrote shit on my mirror. It toyed with my mind for hours until I finally figured out what it was. It was a demon. Straight up.
Prior to that I had never even really thought about God, nor did I care. But once you experience something like that, it's not hard to believe Jesus was telling the truth when he spoke about demons and angels, and heaven and hell...in the Bible.
I know for a fact, it's real. Very real. There is a fourth dimension. There is an afterlife. And Jesus is Lord. All things were made by Him, for Him and Through Him, and nothing exists without Him. Everyday I experience coincidences that are too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence. I call them "God winks". His hand of providence guiding me. And that's my testimony.
Bottom line, I hope and pray you too will learn the truth, but without having to take a major ass-kicking like I had to. Jesus says ask and it will be given; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened. Matthew 7:7.
...find Christ
I had a similar experience on acid when I was 21. I took a really strong micro dot and stared at a white concrete wall with a light in the middle of it for hours on end. As I stared at it the circle of life began to swirl around and around the light. At the bottom of the wall was a river and I saw creatures climbing out of the river and “evolving” into land creatures. As they went up the left side of the circle they were entwined with each other like a wreath. As they hit the top of circle and went down the right side of the wall they began to wither and die. Their corpses and bones lay at the bottom of the wall on the right side of the river, as more and more creatures continued to crawl out of the left side of the river. I watched this for awhile and then I began to stare at the light in the middle of the wall. It turned into a tunnel. I stared into the tunnel and began to travel down the tunnel which seemed to be made out of clouds. I followed the twists and turns of the tunnel for how long I couldn't say. Eventually I reached the end of the tunnel and came out into a massive canyon. In the distance I saw a stone hut, kinda like the ones in The Flintstones, sitting on a ledge. I drifted towards the hut. I reached the hunt and went through its dark entrance and then................the trip stopped.
This is probably my favourite atheist quote:
"I contend we are both atheists, I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts
Being that I stand about as in the middle as you can get, I'm going to chime in here.
Going back and forth asking for proof that God exists, Jesus is the savior, Buddha was husky, etc...isn't really going to get anyone anywhere for one simple reason...
Faith.
Those here who adhere to a certain religion have their beliefs, and they're all rooted in a faith that what you've been taught is true.
I'm Catholic. I was raised Catholic, and I still adhere to those beliefs. Am I such a strict Catholic that I don't use birth control, spout off the occasional swear word, or treat my body like a temple? Absolutely not, but I do adhere to the Ten Commandments the best way I'm capable of.
Despite my religious beliefs, I don't feel the need to beat people over the head with them.
Adults are fully capable of making up their own minds, and I don't have a dark and storied past that I feel hard pressed to make amends with.
I've kinda made up my own beliefs over the years. I like to believe there is a God, I like to believe in an afterlife, and I like to think that as long as you're a good person then the afterlife will bring great things to you, whatever the afterlife actually is. That's pretty much my whole religious philosophy right there. I don't think it matters what you believe or how you believe - as long as you live life to the fullest and are a good person then you've got it made.
That's a beautiful philosophy, Greg. There's only one problem with it. When Adam and Eve broke God's one law and ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, they inadvertantly gave the authority of this world over to Satan. And now we are all born of a sinful nature.
Just look around at the state of the world and you can see that's not unfathomable. The heart is decietful above all things and desperately wicked. That's why a holy and just God sent His only begotten son Jesus to redeem us.
Why is the message of the cross so dispicable to some people? God is good. Unfortunately he's gotten some real bad PR over the decades.
Despite my religious beliefs, I don't feel the need to beat people over the head with them. Adults are fully capable of making up their own minds, and I don't have a dark and storied past that I feel hard pressed to make amends with.
Here is some proof from outside the Bible that an event in the Bible actually happened. I selected this event because out of everything in there, it's the most likely to have outside proof since it would have affected the entire world.
I give you Joshua 10:12-14: "12 On the day the LORD gave the Amorites over to Israel, Joshua said to the LORD in the presence of Israel: "O sun, stand still over Gibeon, O moon, over the Valley of Aijalon."
13 So the sun stood still, and the moon stopped, till the nation avenged itself on its enemies, as it is written in the Book of Jashar. The sun stopped in the middle of the sky and delayed going down about a full day. 14 There has never been a day like it before or since, a day when the LORD listened to a man. Surely the LORD was fighting for Israel!"
This event occurred at about 1448BC by Biblical reckoning (you know, counting back through the kings and dates and all that).
Egyptians had accurate clocks that measured time and they recorded a day that lasted twice as long as a normal day.
China recorded that there was a long day in the year of the world 2554, which works out to 1448BC.
The Aztecs ran up against a long night, and called a conclave of the Gods and offered a sacrifice to bring it back.
Peru recorded the sun hidden for nearly 20 hours during the reign of a king from the 1400's BC.
The Quiche Mayans of Guatemala despaired for the rising of the sun.
In North America, there are more stories of a long night. The Ojibways, Wyandots and the Bungees tell of a long night. The Omahas tell of the sun being caught in a rabbit's trap and only released just before dawn.
Finally, on the eastern island of Fiji an explorer recorded that the natives tied weeds together to stop the sun from going down, as their tales say it once did.
The guy on that site worked all this out here and figured out that in Israel, it was about 9am, since the West Africans were waiting for the dawn that didn't come, and the Fijians had stopped the setting of the sun. There's even a map.
So there you go, Phil. Non-Biblical evidence. If you want to find it, there has been scientific and archaeological evidence for a lot of the Biblical events. Some can't be dogmatically proven, but others have been because man has wanted to prove the Bible's existence (and the lack thereof, in some cases) for quite some time.
I am personally a die-hard Christian, but I prefer to demonstrate my faith instead of ramming it down anyone's throats. I dislike religion because it's a conceptualization created by man to pigeonhole people into a sect. It's also something that people tend to practice as opposed to live. Rather, I find Christianity to be a lifestyle as much as any other. It's not religion, since that's preached by people to be separable. Instead, it's the way I live my life every day without thinking about it. I hope you would be hard-pressed to find me hypocritical, though no one is perfect.
People will choose their own paths and make their own decisions based on their lives and their personal influences. It is a far better choice to be a positive example than to be a persuasive speaker. Or as we say around here, show, don't tell.
So do not let this thread become a battle of wits or words. If you want to preach, write a screenplay with a subtle message. It's the best way to get it across. Have you read my slasher script, Vengeance? It's a horror tale with no profanity, no on-screen sex, and the message of "Thou shalt not commit adultery." Weird huh?
Mike Shelton, You and the sock puppet should take your act on the road. You guys are a real hoot.
And to think this whole thing stemmed from me trying to rally SS'rs to match my simple $10.00 donation for the Haiti relief fund. Bert tried to warn me this thing might get out of hand, but I wouldn't listen...yeesh. Live and learn.
Any-who, let's all try to please keep sending out those donations:
A religion that is pure and stainless according to God the Father is this: to take care of orphans and widows who are suffering. James 1:27. Maybe we can all just agree on this one for now.
Mike Shelton, You and the sock puppet should take your act on the road. You guys are a real hoot.
I wasn't making a joke. Look at that stupid family that sits by the road with the hate signs, or people who were involved in the Branch Davidian cult. Fanatics, and far worse for religion than anything that can be stirred up about God.
Another outlet is all the issues with the Catholic church, namely the touchy priests. It's become so widespread that it's now a commonly used stereotype.
This isn't bad PR for God. It's bad PR for those who act "on behalf" of God. Anybody who takes that at face value is a fool.
Yeah. I think I said that all the back in post number 2.
Phil
That is true, Phil. But people must've overlooked it at some point because there were people on both sides who looked like they were guaranteeing that what they said was fact.
I felt it needed to be stated again. It didn't seem like me saying it helped either, but it was a shot.
Why is the message of the cross so dispicable to some people? God is good. Unfortunately he's gotten some real bad PR over the decades.
It's not dispicable, Mike. It's just not believable.
Bible thumpers say that the world is six thousand years old because the Bible says so. Archeologists prove that the world is a couple of million years older than than. And they've proven it with carbon dating and how deep fossils are buried.
One 'theologian' went assofar as to say that God planted the dinosaur bones to test the faith of the scientists.
Too much faith is being placed on a book, plain and simple. We were taught that the Bible is true, without questions. In the past, those who questioned it, and the church, were branded heretics and killed... so people learned not to question it.
The church doesn't have this kind of power anymore. And, with the advancements in science, people can believe in facts that have been proven through scientific method.
Is the Bible true because people say it's true? If so, then Amityville Horror is true. And the Hitler Diaries. And the Blair Witch Project.
There's no logic behind religion and there's no faith needed for science - so never the twain shall meet...
Also, there's a difference between being religious and being spiritual - churches are filled with embezzelers and mafioso and the like.
I'd rather be a spiritual person who doesn't profess any sort of faith than be a hypocrite who shows up every day but is devoid of real goodness.
Of course, it's possible to be both religious and spiritual.
For a great lay person's view on this, you should all read "Varieties of Religious Experience" by William James. James goes on for pages on how he admires the complete and utter devotion to their faith by the martyrs. He doesn't conclude in the end that anything religious is true, but he longs for that feeling - the peace a martyr feels when someone says "abandon your faith or we'll kill you" - the peace that allows the martyr to say "no" and to go to his or her grave with absolute faith.
I for one don't believe in any of it - but it's an admirable trait just the same, no?
Mr. Blonde, you started this with a question. I say read William James. Read Aquinas. Read Nietzsche. Read Howard Thurman. Read the gnostic gospels and books by people who comment on them.
All much better qualified people and sources than the SS board, my esteem for all you people aside...
There's no logic behind religion and there's no faith needed for science - so never the twain shall meet...
Ah, but there are a number of brilliant researchers who have reconciled their science with their faith.
A know personally of a physicist who claims that his work brings him closer to God.
In the biochemical sciences, there are a great many instances where some unseen hand seems to be working behind the scenes.
There is a lot of poppycock to Intelligent Design, but to those who have studied it with a true scientific eye, there are some nuggets there, and compelling questions.
To throw anyone's beliefs onto the fire is ignorant. To implicate any belief system by pointing to a subset of individuals with flaws that are all too human is unfair.
This is the second time you've referred to me as the 'sock puppet,' at least in this thread. A little insulting, don't you think? I'm being reasonable and logical in what I say. Since you can't use these two character traits in this discussion, you resort to name calling. Phil
Phil,
I'm sorry for calling you a sock puppet. I have nothing but the utmost respect for you as a fellow screenwriter, and Mike Shelton, too. You guys are great sports.
Evil + Good = a mathematical system of forces given and existing in man
All comes from God
The purpose of life is for man to find his complete individuality and experience infinity and unbounded pleasure
For that to happen, a great negative deficiency needed to be created opposite this--
That great deficiency equals the entire history of our world, wherein we are currently reaching the height of all desires--
ie: Many of us are reaching a point where we have seemingly everything we could want in this corporeal life, but we desire something beyond this--
We desire something spiritual.
And many of us instinctively know, that when we meet certain others with this same desire, we are meeting up with divine sparks, that we recognize and remember from before:
As Carl Sagan said, "We've been this way before...." It's in the cruisin' thread.
Anyways, we each are responsible for ourselves, but there's a reciprocal relationship where we are all connected and need to love others as ourselves.
THAT'S the catch. How the hell do we do that?
It's not in our nature. We are actually naturally repelled from each other. Even in the most loving relationships, it always breaks down at some point.
So...
After all this long winded mercutious speech...
I say this:
Religion was a necessary part in human development. It's not a bad thing.
Spirituality is different. I think it crosses over religious and cultural boundaries.
None of us stand perfect. We know it within ourselves. I think. Now, maybe there are some people that think they are without sin, but that would be another story.
The very fact that we "think" we sin, or feel some kind of remorse tells me something personally. It tells me that I'm above the purely animalistic nature of any other beast on this planet.
The very fact that people want to discuss religious questions. Ask the question: What am I living for? What's the purpose of my life? Why is there suffering? How could there be a God if there is such suffering?
These questions tell me for certain what I know from experience with my own engagement with something above me, but that's me. I don't believe in telling other people what they should or should not engage in.
I will however say that they should engage with "something". They shouldn't be apathetic. If all you can engage with is football, then be the best engager in football this planet has ever seen.
What I'm saying, is if you need to search, then search. That's something that comes in time. When you're ready, it happens.
Anyways, what I'm talking about is not really religion the way people think about it.
I like to study mathematics sometimes and maybe sometime, I'll put up a formula that I don't have the ability to actually work out, but it's a reciprocal rule.
There are many good books you can buy if you enjoy math that you can check out.
Who knows, maybe some of you will give up screenwriting and be the next Arthur Young or someone like that.
Maybe you'll write a book about how a "religion thread" on Simply caused you to go out and buy a book and yada-yada-yada... the rest is history.
Well, wherever this thread goes...
I just want to say for the record:
God created atheists too. Oh, and you don't have to be an atheist to be non-religious.
You're right. I deleted my other post to avoid flame war involvement haha. Here are my thoughts:
While I'm Jewish and like what the religion is about, I've kinda made up my own beliefs over the years. I like to believe there is a God, I like to believe in an afterlife, and I like to think that as long as you're a good person then the afterlife will bring great things to you, whatever the afterlife actually is. That's pretty much my whole religious philosophy right there. I don't think it matters what you believe or how you believe - as long as you live life to the fullest and are a good person then you've got it made.
I think our lives are what we make them to be and I don't believe God, whoever this being is, punishes people for believing in different ways. I recognize I could be very wrong, but this belief system makes me feel good, so I'm happy with it.
-Greg
I'M COMPLETELY WITH GREG!!! IT'S SO COOL!!!
Anyways, the fact we can complain about it all, I see it as a good thing.
Really. Well, sometimes not. Sometimes it's so very depressing and I'm most definitely feeling Phil's sentiments. But other times, I'm right there in the moment and can feel something that is really so funny and wonderful.
You say it like I didn't know that going in, Pia. By the way, why'd you leave out the part of my quote where I admitted that I thought it was a bad idea? Lol. I'm not ashamed that I fucked up. That's why I said, "I took a shot." Lol.
We'll get the verdict from Bert, who really didn't want it in the first place.
So, how 'bout them Bears, huh?
Yeah, you're right. I don't care about the Bears. I don't even like anywhere near them. Sports are another thing people get touchy about, easily. Not as easily as politics or religion, but for some people, sports are a religion. (And, as we've seen, they also can become politics)
Ah, but there are a number of brilliant researchers who have reconciled their science with their faith.
A know personally of a physicist who claims that his work brings him closer to God.
In the biochemical sciences, there are a great many instances where some unseen hand seems to be working behind the scenes.[quote]
Bert,
Absolutely true - one of the best books I've ever read was "The Tao of Physics" by Fritjof Capra, which basically states that the quantum world and Eastern Philosophy (or religion, if you prefer), are quite similar.
I was referring to the rift between them not in the way in which they can be unified, but rather in the way one can be used to attack the other.
In other words, using science, and thus logic, to attack religion is like using a sledge hammer to open a pistachio...
You say it like I didn't know that going in, Pia. By the way, why'd you leave out the part of my quote where I admitted that I thought it was a bad idea? Lol. I'm not ashamed that I fucked up. That's why I said, "I took a shot." Lol.
You didn't fuck up dear. Us "old timers" just seen it before.
Mr. Blonde don't let Pia bash you down like that. I'm pretty sure her bark is a whole lot worse than her bite. Stand your ground, man! And anyway, I PM'd him and egged him on when he was mulling over the idea to open this thread. If anybody deserves to get bashed, it's me. Keep the thread, Bert. I'll take full responsibility. It's all good.
With what I've seen, no one online could "bash me down", as you put it. I'm of the opinion that I don't do anything because a person tells me to. I'm a very different person on here than in real life. Never once have I actually been upset at anyone online and that's definitely not changing tonight. =)
And, no, it's not you, Rider. I wanted to do it. Your PM came while I was dealing with an e-mail about a quick re-write someone wanted me to do. Even without your PM, it's not your fault. And, if it gets taken down, it's more for Bert because he really didn't want to moderate it in the first place.
With what I've seen, no one online could "bash me down", as you put it. I'm of the opinion that I don't do anything because a person tells me to. I'm a very different person on here than in real life. Never once have I actually been upset at anyone online and that's definitely not changing tonight. =)
Mr. Blonde don't let Pia bash you down like that. I'm pretty sure her bark is a whole lot worse than her bite. Stand your ground, man! And anyway, I PM'd him and egged him on when he was mulling over the idea to open this thread. If anybody deserves to get bashed, it's me. Keep the thread, Bert. I'll take full responsibility. It's all good.
Is that what a good Christian does? Eggs on?
Screenrider, if you think not, then you are mistaken.
We know how Jesus egged on; and so, you are our our wonderful stereotype like Jesus.
And I'm serious and not joking now at all. I find it very beautiful actually.
I think about lines that I can't repeat word for word, but like:
I didn't come to bring peace to the world, but a sword...
Is that what a good Christian does? Eggs on? And I'm serious and not joking now at all. I find it very beautiful actually. I think about lines that I can't repeat word for word, but like:I didn't come to bring peace to the world, but a sword...And I understand this, but not everyone does. Anyways, I enjoy you. You're cool. But you might not want to hear that from me. Sandra
It was a bad choice of words, Sandra. I encouraged" him to post this thread after he asked a question about God on my thread where I was trying to get SS'rs to match a small donation I made to Red Cross.
And the scripture you're thinking of is Matthew 10:34-36. "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household. But that's okay. Jesus is cut the grass and pull up the weeds when he returns. -->Revelation 1:7/ Rev. 19:20-21/ Matthew 13:24-30. Of course some people might not wanna hear that.
It was a bad choice of words, Sandra. I encouraged" him to post this thread after he asked a question about God on my thread where I was trying to get SS'rs to match a small donation I made to Red Cross.
And the scripture you're thinking of is Matthew 10:34-36. "Do not think that I came to bring peace on the earth; I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I came to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law; and a man’s enemies will be the members of his household.
But that's okay. Jesus is gonna sort it all out when He returns. ---> Revelation 1:7, & 19:20-21 and Matthew 13:24-30. Of course some people might not wanna hear that from me.
Screenrider, I understand this.
This very thing is written in the Thief Script by me, I apologize, in the characters of Gabriel and Jeana.
There were so many feelings and to try and process them in one go is a chore, but that's the game.
We're here. We're all here. And it's so very unreal and real at the same time.
When I listen to my friends here, sometimes I just really feel like I could explode in thankfulness.
I get this "thing". It's where you feel this kind of connection that even if it's deadpan sorrow, you feel like you can laugh.
That's the only way I can put it right now.
We knock up against one another, but it's really very very very special.
It's THE reason I love my husband the way I do. He's like the opposite ends of the world to me. We are so completely different and yet, we're so completely the same.
It doesn't make any sense at all.
When you go deeper into the rabbit hole, you learn it from experience.
But that experience is without logic.
Kinda cancels things ya know... and you're left at square one
Fair enough. I'll share my own personal experience. For years I was a hardcore methamphetamine addict. Crack, crime, decadence, you name it I was into it. One night after being up for six days on meth, I encountered what I can only describe as demonic activity. Something supernatural. An evil spirit. And it was in my apartment.
Now any psychiatrist would tell you what I was experiencing was nothing more than meth-induced psychosis. But it wasn't. This thing physically wrote shit on my mirror. It toyed with my mind for hours until I finally figured out what it was. It was a demon. Straight up.
Prior to that I had never even really thought about God, nor did I care. But once you experience something like that, it's not hard to believe Jesus was telling the truth when he spoke about demons and angels, and heaven and hell...in the Bible.
I know for a fact, it's real. Very real. There is a fourth dimension. There is an afterlife. And Jesus is Lord. All things were made by Him, for Him and Through Him, and nothing exists without Him. Everyday I experience coincidences that are too much of a coincidence to be a coincidence. I call them "God winks". His hand of providence guiding me. And that's my testimony.
Bottom line, I hope and pray you too will learn the truth, but without having to take a major ass-kicking like I had to. Jesus says ask and it will be given; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened. Matthew 7:7.
...find Christ
Interesting post. There a lot of holes in the story though.
It's far more logical and sensible to put down your experience to hallucinations (you admit to being up for 6 days on meths!).
Do you have video footage of the things being written on the mirror? Photographic evidence would be interesting, but it wouldn't preclude the notion that you had simply written on the mirror yourself in a physcotic episode.
It's also interesting that you assume that the demon is one from the Christian pantheon. Did it identify itself?
There are demons in almost all religions/mythologies, many lifted and plagiarised for the Bible or "created" as acts of ideological colonisation (eg using the Pagan God Pan as a now famous image of the Devil to try and forcibly convert the naturally Pagan people of the British Isles.
A process that extends as far as Christmas (which is merely Saturnalia). Early Christians did not celebrate people's Birth "as it was considered a Pagan tradition".
Quote the World Book Encyclopedia.
The world always goes full circle and religion is no exception. Christmas is a Pagan tradition, it goes against early Christian teachings, and was not celebrated for hundreds of years after Christ's death, yet now people have campaigns to "keep Christ in Christmas" and these kinds of things. Very ironic.
We fight the same wars over and over again, never moving on and never taking the time to simply objectvely evaluate the truth.
If one has recourse to history, they can simply start filling in the pieces and seeing where all the little myths develop.
For instance Baal and Yahweh (The Judeo-Christian God). Both these were Gods originally and the two Priesthoods (as Priesthoods tend to do) became extremely competitive. In the end the Yahwens won out and the victors as always get to write the history books. Baal becomes castigated and demonised and now is seen as one of Solomon's demons, whereas he was considered the very Lord of Heaven by his original worshippers.
Whoever wins the fight gets to impose their Gods. It's as simple as that.
There is a modern day mythology developing all around us and it's interesting to watch it develop as it grows like Religions do over time: The UFO mythology. The Roswell incident in particular. A craft of some kind crashes. Over time vague reports circulate that an Alien was invloved. UFO researchers in the past concluded that the official version of events was the corrct one, yet over the years a very impressive story has developed round the incident.
The aliens have been given a race (the Greys), even individual names (Google it), a sex (androgynous) plus a whole back story about how they need our genetic samples to pro-create. These things are now recounted across numerous books and websites released every year and it has been codified and made believable.
For people like me who are interested in Religion on a more academic level, this mythology is interesting to watch build up. It has all the fundamentals there to develop and become a very powerful belief system.
You get to see first hand how systems of belief can be built up over time, by adding to the story.
What think is hilarious is the talk of Biblical reality, and it appears that my post providing proof that a piece of the Bible is actually true has been completely overlooked. I love the topic of the dinosaurs, etc., because it really sets the Bible thumpers against the world, and yet, when the thumpers start making stuff up, it only shows their ignorance of their own material. I direct you to Genesis 1:1-2: "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."
This reads like a seamless narrative, but if you happen to have the New International Version, research is about as hard as glancing at the footnotes where you find the word "was" that falls between earth and formless could possibly be the word "became." The story behind the writing of Genesis is that God gave this information to Moses who passed it onto the children of Israel. God doesn't bandy words, but says what he means. It is man that tries to figure him out. So if we re-read verse 2, we get:
"Now the earth became formless and empty..."
This creates what amounts to an unanswered gap between the creation of the world and the creation of everything that we know. A popular scientific explanation of the extinction of the dinosaurs is an asteroid collision which created worldwide chaos including darkness as indicated in verse 2 and wiped out everything. If you re-read the creation account from the perspective of God putting it all back together, you get a different picture altogether.
One single word makes the difference between 6,000 years and a span of time the we can't fathom, but apparently included the dinosaurs and all kinds of things that don't exist anymore. But equally inexplicably, we have a bunch of stuff that wasn't around before and came out of pretty much no where.
There is a lot of ignorance in the world of believers just as there is ignorance in the world of the non-believers. Most of you know me as someone who comes across as fairly well-informed about the screenwriting craft, but I've been a Christian longer than I've been a screenwriter, and I've read a lot on that topic as well, and through everything I've read, I remain a believer.
I suppose you see what you want to see and ignore what you want to ignore. This is not uncommon in the Christian world either. It is a far better position to acknowledge that you could be wrong than to stick to your guns, though. A lot of people tend to have a life philosophy and in the case of Christians, there tends to be a particular verse they cling to. Here's mine:
"Prove all things; hold fast that which is good." 1 Thessalonians 5:21
It serves me well.
EDIT: Decadence is completely right about Christmas. Christmas was created by the Catholic church years ago as a response to the celebration of the winter solstice by the pagan sect. They wanted their people to be a part of Christianity, but let them have their comfort level of their winter party, so they turned it into a celebration of the birth of Christ. It is accepted by many religious authorities that Jesus was most likely born in August or September. What was celebrated by the early church was Jesus' resurrection, since that is the backbone of the Christian faith.
I'm still trying to figure out why Easter is on a different date each year.
Ok, so Jesus was crucified on a certain day in AD 33(or whatever calendar you want to use). So if it was ,say, Friday March 20, by whatever reckoning, then why isn't that a fixed date each year like Xmas? We all know that he wasn't born on December 25 by our calendar, yet we have this day fixed. Why not the same for Easter?
For the record, I went to a Catholic primary school till I was 14. we used to go to churhc each week but weren't full on worshippers. I started forming my own views round about then. I believe in a force behind things. If its God, then thats cool. God is just a name for it. I believe there has to be some point behind the universe - it sems illogical that all it all just came into being.
Its a matter of belief I guess - if you wanna believe in an entity out there, no prob. If you don't, no prob. We ain't gonna find out till we cark it anyway. And no one has really come back to tell us the score, have they? Which proves or disproves nothing...
Enough dribble, i'm off to bed. I also believe climate change is now sort of similiar to a religious debate, but in a smaller way - you either believe it will happen or you're a sceptic. Personally, I'm the latter( I was a beliver but changed).
Jesus rose from the dead the Sunday after Passover, so the Easter celebration will always fall on the Sunday after Passover which is prescribed to begin at twilight on the 14th day of the first month of the Jewish calendar (Leviticus 23:5). Trouble is that the Jewish calendar is 12 months of 30 days with a thirteenth month added every seven years to balance it out. Their first month also fell during our springtime, so technically, Easter does fall at around the same day every year, but due to the translation from that calendar to ours, it moves around.
I had a pastor once that threw a royal fit when the calendar placed Easter on the Sunday before Passover. He let the congregation know on Easter that he wasn't celebrating until the following Sunday because it was placed on the wrong day. It really tossed a damper on that day at church, even though he was technically right.
Don't be ridiculous, Mike. Some of us are growing tired of this thread and aren't giving it priority anymore.
George posted an interesting argument. Something significant happened and it's in the Old Testament. My question is this: when was the book of Joshua written? Years later? Decades later? As Rick pointed out, earlier, stories build over time. That fish that got away when I was ten is about 72 feet long now....
I'm not saying that this event happen. I'm questioning the Biblical reporting of it. The Aztecs gave a sacrifice to their gods. Maybe the Aztec gods were responsible and not the Judeo-Christian God. Maybe the Egyptian gods had something to do with it?
The New Testament wasn't written until decades after Jesus supposedly ascended to heaven. Once these books were put together, they were translated and copied hundreds of times over and kept by the Catholic church for about 1000 years. There's plenty of room, here, for misinterpretation and error. And no one would ever know because the Bible wasn't made public until the Gutenberg Bible in the 15th century.
Did you ever play the game 'Telephone?' It doesn't take much to screw up the message.
Both movies Psycho and Texas Chainsaw Massacre are based on the story of Ed Gein. You'd never know that from watching the movies. The reason for this is that the writers interpreted the stories differently. The same can be said with the Bible; stories were changed during the rewrites and the story got bigger and bigger. Things were added over time. Veronica, who wiped Jesus' face while he carried the cross, is not listed in any of the Gospels. Where did her story come from?
I mentioned, earlier, The Amityville Horror. The cover of the book stated it was a true story. And people believed it at first, until it was disproven. People believed that The Blair Witch Project was real when it first came out. Many still did even after the actors in it appeared on The Tonight Show.
While Amityville and Blair were quickly dismissed as fiction, a part of it was that we had the resources to do so. Communication was at a call (if anything) during biblical times. And the fear of being called a heretic (and killed) kept a lot of people quiet.
Don't be ridiculous, Mike. Some of us are growing tired of this thread and aren't giving it priority anymore. Phil
Then why are you still posting messages, Phil. Why does the Gospel of Jesus get you so wound up? it's almost as if you're afraid. You don't believe in God so why should you even care about this discussion? I dunno. But I do know this. Hebrews 4:12 says "the word of God is alive and powerful. It is sharper than the sharpest two-edged sword, cutting between soul and spirit, between joint and marrow. It exposes our innermost thoughts and desires".
You can dispute the integrity of the Bible until you're blue in the face. It' doesn't matter. The Word of God stands. Jesus said it best in Matthew 5:18. "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished".
If this Earth was one centimeter off it's gravitational axis we'd be sling-shotted into oblivion. God holds the universe in place, so based on that knowledge I'm confident he had complete control of what was put into the Bible and what was left out. I know that's a hard pill for you to swallow. I'm really not trying to be argumentive with you, but nothing, and I mean nothing, will ever change my mind about this.
EDIT: And here's the scary part about this whole this thing. Revelation 1:7. Behold, he cometh with the clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they that pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth shall mourn over him.
I hate to say it but that's not gonna be a good day for a lot of people.
The LORD will go forth like a warrior, He will arouse His zeal like a man of war. He will utter a shout, yes, He will raise a war cry. He will prevail against His enemies. Isaiah 42:13. Game over.
I said it wasn't priority; I didn't I was abandoning it. And I'm not afraid of anything in the Bible. I'm annoyed that you try to support the validity of the Bible with quotes from it.
What think is hilarious is the talk of Biblical reality, and it appears that my post providing proof that a piece of the Bible is actually true has been completely overlooked.
Quoted from screenrider
It's funny how that happens...a typical strategy of the enemy. And when I say enemy I mean the "system of the Antichrist".
It's funny how you've ignored my argument, too, about the multiple translations and and rewrites of the Bible. And the questions regarding who was responsible for that long day incident that George brought up. I guess if the answer isn't in the Bible, it's not a worthwhile question.
Quoted from screenrider
Here's the bottom line...God (Jesus) will bring every work into judgement, including every secret thing, whether good or evil. Ecclesiastes, 12:14.
EDIT: Here's another bottom line... faith, hope, love. But the greatest of these is love. That is overall the most pertinent message of Jesus.
Here's the bottom line--the real bottom line: The Devil isn't responsible for the earthquake in Haiti (as you say). God isn't responsible for the earthquake in Haiti (as that douchebag Robertson says). It was tectonic plates shifting somewhere around or under Haiti. Your drug problem wasn't the work of the Devil; you're recovery wasn't the work of God. Both were your doing.
I said it wasn't priority; I didn't I was abandoning it. And I'm not afraid of anything in the Bible. I'm annoyed that you try to support the validity of the Bible with quotes from it.
All right, Phil. On the front of "proving" anything in the Bible, you are correct. It cannot be proven. There is nothing that I can bring to the table that would provide a sufficiently convincing argument as to the validity of the Bible. There is no story I could relate or any testimony I could give that would sway any skeptic. By the same measure, there is no argument that can conclusively show the opposite. There is nothing you can present to show that the Bible is not true, and I don't expect you to.
Quoted from dogglebe
It's funny how you've ignored my argument, too, about the multiple translations and and rewrites of the Bible. And the questions regarding who was responsible for that long day incident that George brought up. I guess if the answer isn't in the Bible, it's not a worthwhile question.
Well, in all fairness, I hadn't looked at the site since you posted your argument, so a lack of presence can hardly be called ignoring it. For what it's worth, the Mormons use the same argument to present their version of the Bible as a whole. Again, I cannot give you any argument you would believe to reinforce the idea that the Bible's text somehow survived for centuries. For what it's worth, the story of the flood is not just in the Bible either. Greek mythology has one too. Who's to say, right?
Quoted from dogglebe
Here's the bottom line--the real bottom line: The Devil isn't responsible for the earthquake in Haiti (as you say). God isn't responsible for the earthquake in Haiti (as that douchebag Robertson says). It was tectonic plates shifting somewhere around or under Haiti. Your drug problem wasn't the work of the Devil; you're recovery wasn't the work of God. Both were your doing.
I wouldn't claim to know who or what is responsible for the earthquake. Obviously, the tectonic plates moved which created the shaker. Was there a higher power? How should I know? I'm not that cool.
So if that means that there are no arguments that could possibly prove or disprove the Bible's validity. All I have is faith. I have no proof. Nothing that would present a clear, convincing argument. So, my wise friend, since I still believe that it is true without anything concrete, what does that make me from a scientific perspective?
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