Great for you that Don decided to chime in. I was surprised about the nonsense with the gore. Although that does explain why so many who read my 7wc script decided not to comment. Anyway, as far as gore goes, you know you're safe with me. I won't be offended or disgusted.

I also feel those who said it was nothing new and blah blah might just be extra hard on you, because you can be hard in reviews of other people's scripts. I still think you're one of the most thoghrough reviewers here so I give you some room to be less than brilliant. If you were Balt, you'd deserve all kinds of shit.

My biggest issue with this script was the believability of the women. Sorry I can't remember their names. I read this last night. I noticed that you said we'd be surprised how many women and "you" do dumb shit and go with strangers...I would agree with that except for a few things. When a guy brags how rich he or as in this case his parents are, but then mentions his dad is an ex cop... RED FLAG moment. This is when you tell the guy to keep walking... if you know what I mean. In other words, it's not that she goes with him that is disturbing, but rather him revealing things about himself that just sends up red flags.

In regards to the gore and Maia, I think that was fine. What brought it down was your lack of giving us some believable explanation to what turned him this way or why he's doing this.  We need something more in order to connect with him and the victims and of course Maia.

It wasn't bad Jeff. We just need better motivations and characterizations. The gore was fine...

Take care.

Pia

Quoted from Grandma Bear I also feel those who said it was nothing new and blah blah might just be extra hard on you, because you can be hard in reviews of other people's scripts. I still think you're one of the most thoghrough reviewers here so I give you some room to be less than brilliant. If you were Balt, you'd deserve all kinds of shit. Pia

I'm the reviewer who said that "there was nothing new and blah blah".


If you were Balt, you'd deserve all kinds of shit.


This is unfair.

Balt is not here.

Balt is a young father.

It's not right to attack someone who has not even been around. He could be dead for all we know.

Stabbed from behind.

*

I also feel those who said it was nothing new and blah blah might just be extra hard on you, because you can be hard in reviews of other people's scripts.

*

My review of Jeff's script began with compliments of his excellent technical skills. There is nothing hard about that.

I sincerely believe that there is nothing new in his recent Soulshadows script. This is not a put down to his skills as a writer and I specifically expressed my high regard for his technical skills.

I'm not going to deliver "sweet candy" to Jeff because I know he wouldn't appreciate it.

Jeff expects honest and critical reviews and nothing less. This is what I've given him to the best of my ability.


Sandra

Sandra dear, it was not an attack on you. I just felt his script would be much better with some character development and some reasonable explaining why some characters do this and that. Gore IMO is not the problem, it's the lack of reason for it.

Now you go cook that turkey!!!  





PS. In regards to Balt...his absense is nothing new here and I believe he set himself up for criticism. I do  hear you though.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Sandra dear, it was not an attack on you. I just felt his script would be much better with some character development and some reasonable explaining why some characters do this and that. Gore IMO is not the problem, it's the lack of reason for it. Now you go cook that turkey!!!   PS. In regards to Balt...his absense is nothing new here and I believe he set himself up for criticism. I do  hear you though.

The gore wasn't the problem for me.

Here's the problem:

I'm noticing that there seem to exist two kinds of scripts:

1.

A script that is completely technically sound. It flows. It has story. Its copy is clean.

2.

A script that is very helter-skelter. The writer might not even know how to introduce a character or do a proper slug...

But nevertheless,

They just might have caught my eye and I know they're a damn good writer.

I've said this before, but I'll say it again.

There's a writer on here , (he's young and I won't say more) and he's absolutely fabulous. I could complain and write red marks all across the hard copy of his script, but it's completely real and alive and when I read it, I feel like I'm reading from his soul.

Like I said:

Two types of scripts.

If the writers on either end of this terrible scale can stick around long enough, then they will probably most certainly be successful.

I can honestly say that the problem with Jeff's script is not new.

In fact, many people complain about "Hollywood" for the reason that it is so formulaic.

Ironically, I do enjoy Hollywood films, but also, I do recognize the humdrum.

From a completely personal and subjective viewpoint:

I enjoy watching live performances.

I especially enjoy watching amateur performances.

And...

It's really cool to watch the buskers on the street!!!

The turkey is now cooked by the way.   I froze white meat and dark meat and the bones for making soup when we get back.

I've got a story about "turkey bones" that's really funny. My son is the protagonist, (or would it be antagonist?) in that story that is really funny. 2010 will be a good year for jokes. It was very funny and I'll try and set aside time for the telling.

Love,
Sandra

Hey Steven, thanks for the read and feedback.  Glad you liked it!

The horror element is not your typical horror, I guess.   As others have noted, I guess, this falls into what many call “torture porn”, but I’ve never really quite understood that.  Some like it, others don’t.

Thanks for the compliments on the smooth flow, quick feel, natural dialogue, well told action, and smooth transition.  I definitely tried and am very happy with the results.  Thanks again, as I know this isn’t your cup of tea.


Thanks Greg!  Appreciate the read and feedback. Not sure we’ve chatted before, but I owe you a read now…let me know what you’d like some feedback on, and I’m all over it.

I definitely like things extreme, and wanted to push the envelope here with this.  Glad it worked for you.

You’re right, it is supposed to be cheesy in many ways.  It’s actually brought up in the script numerous times and is a running gag.  I definitely wanted to tie things up and deliver a big payoff that hopefully wasn’t quite expected.  Glad Maia worked for you and delivered what you were after.

You’re correct about the security…2 girls had been abducted earlier, at the last 2 home games.  Here’s the deal…tailgating in Green Bay is a bit different than most cities.  There are numerous different areas where people gather to party, as well as at just about every single home front yard within walking distance.  Same with all the restaurants and bars in the area…it’s not like you drive into the stadium parking lot, and that’s where it all goes down.  There is always police presence, but there’re just so many possibilities.  The first 2 abductions left no witnesses or clues at all.  I actually had some dialogue lines making this clear earlier, but pulled them out of the final draft.  One correction I will make is to change Logan’s car when he meets Maia.  Since he’s using a fake name and everyone is drinking heavily, Madison’s and Alyssa’s description will be pretty useless (everyone wears jerseys, and most pretty much look alike).  Also, no bodies have turned up, and really no signs of foul play even.  One more interesting thing that most probably didn’t get is that Logan borrows a cell phone from a random person to make calls to his victims, so he’s clean and clear as far as that goes.  Cell records would point to several other people, so police would be pretty much clueless.

Glad you enjoyed it, Greg.  Thanks again!


Thanks so much for reading and posting feedback, Don.  Totally appreciate it, as I know you don’t post very often.

Funny, Don, as I’m actually going to be writing a RomCom as 1 of my next features, based on an idea I came up with about 9 months ago…we’ll see how it turns out, as horror is definitely my genre of choice.  Glad you liked Tyler and Emma…I sure tried to give them some personality, and likability.

I definitely hear you about how things took a drastic turn on page 12.  I think it’s kind of my style to have a sudden shock around the midway point.  I know there are some shocking, brutal, and disturbing imagery.  Totally what I was after.  I asked Bert immediately if he thought it was “too much”.  I was definitely worried what people would think.  Glad the final act worked enough for you to post this.  I would have been crushed if you deemed it “unpostable”.

Yes, that’s how they spell it…”brats”.  Check out your local grocery store.

Damn, can’t believe I missed that dialogue heading!  Great catch.  I’ll get it changed.

I wondered if people would be confused with Logan calling himself “Tyler”.  I asked Bert what he thought, and he thought it was understandable.  I actually like it the way it is, as well, but I hear ya for sure.

Thanks again, Don!

Thanks for checking this out, Screenrider!  Glad you liked it.

Some flicks are known for their high blood, guts, and boobs quotient.  Some writers and directors are also known for it.  I certainly don’t like pulling any punches, and hopefully, never will.  There are numerous examples of disturbing, graphically violent films and shorts (Masters of Horror, for instance – 1 Director’s episode was deemed too graphic, and wasn’t shown on cable, but did make the DVD).

Not sure if anyone is trying to move these Soul Shadows along.  You never know, I guess.

Thanks again!


Hey James, thanks for the read and feedback.

Might as well start with the negative, bud…let’s get it out of the way.  Yes, the dialogue and “shtick” was purposely cheesy.  It’s actually said numerous times in the actual script and is a running gag, of sorts.  I don’t think Logan came off as creepy or even weird.  He was nice, polite, and appeared to be a good guy.

Yeah, I wanted to make Maia “different”, and have supernatural powers, so she could take Logan out.  Maia is a “Protector” as she says...a “good” demon, who takes out assholes and creeps like Logan.  She only shows her powers when she needs to, thus playing along with Logan and making him think she’s just another victim.

Nope, no heart here, other than when Maia stabs his key into his actual heart.  The key was the item, not the heart, but I hear what you’re saying.

Cool, glad you liked it!  Glad the dialogue worked for you and it came of as real…I definitely tried to throw as much in as I could to make it have a realistic feel to it.  I definitely wanted the violence to play out realistically, and as brutally as possible.  All played straight up for sure.  No laughs here, when it comes to violence.  HaHa…a Glasgow smile…LOVE it!!!!

Thanks again, James!


Yo, Stevie!  Thanks for the feedback.  Always appreciated.

I know you’re not a big horror/slasher type guy.  Yes, there were shades of Bateman in Logan for sure.  Twisted fuck all the way around.

I wanted to bring in some realism, and I thought a football game was a good way to do it.  All the games and times, and even weather is exact.

I hear what you’re saying about the feasibility factor, but I know for a fact that shit like this can and does happen…on a much more frequent basis than you may believe.  Tyler came of as nice guy and the situation just seemed “right”…so Em went for it…bad choice for sure, but it does happen.  Especially when loads of alcohol are involved.

Glad it worked for you overall.  Thanks again!


Hey Ghost, thanks for giving it a look.  Do I owe you some reads?  Just let me know, bud…I’m on it.

I really wasn’t trying to reinvent the wheel with this or even mask what this was.  The logline was supposed to let you know what was going to go down, but I did want to throw in some nasty twists and turns and make it come of a bit differently than you expected or are familiar with.

Yeah, as I’ve said a few times, the cheese was intentional.

The angle I was after was to be as brutal and graphic as possible, without crossing the line into ridiculousness.  It’s all played straight up and that’s supposed to add to the disturbing factor.

Ha…I actually love that line!  Is it necessary?  Definitely not, but it’s just a few extra words, when it all is said and done.

The scary factor is that it plays for real…and could actually happen.  Logan’s insanity level as well as the “unique” brutality is where the “scares” are supposed to be, but I totally understand how many don’t see this genre as being scary.

Thanks again, Ghost!


Hey Gabe, thanks for the read.  I hear ya about not being into this genre.  I actually didn’t want to go into anymore detail with Logan and Emma, even if I had more room, page-wise.  As I’ve said before, IMO, stuff like this does happen quite frequently, and people often fall for lines from others.  Obviously, time passes between when they’re eating brats by the car and when they start making out at Kroll’s.  Based on Em’s dialogue, they seem to share a lot in common and she’s smitten by him.  Too bad for her.

Maia’s qualities did present themselves, actually.  She pulled free of both cuffs, easily smashed Logan into a wall with 1 hand, pulled her head free, with no ill effects, and broke Logan’s wrist with a single powerful thrust of her hand.  She has incredible powers that she uses as she needs.  I didn’t want her to go to far over the top, so I only hinted at her teeth, mouth, and tongue.  In a filmed version, once she outs herself, it would be very obvious she’s far from human.

Thanks again!

Hey Rob, thanks for reading and your feedback.

Sorry this didn’t do it for you.  I know you are not alone in not liking the torture porn genre.  As I said earlier, I think this genre being scary, depends on how you look at it.  If it just doesn’t work for you, I can see it not being scary.  I guess “scary” wasn’t really what I was after.  I wanted to highlight the brutality and graphicness of the horrendous acts of violence that mankind is capable of.

In terms of this being “pretty standard stuff”, I have to disagree.  Sure, it is what it is, and it follows numerous standard plotlines, but I tried to differentiate it by the details, and the way it played out, as well as the general tone, which again was all straight up, for reals.

I think the same goes for why this is very troubling for some.  The violence is graphic, brutal, and all played straight up.  The way Logan talks with Emma is troubling in itself, I think.  The stuff about the breasts and the way he cuts them off (all OS) is something I’m not familiar with, personally, as well as the glue and scalping (which we’ll get to in more detail below).  You know, it’s one thing to write gross, graphic violence. I tried to take it to the next level, and make it all the more troubling because of it.  Guess it didn’t work on you, my friend.

Logan’s shtick was what it was…and it worked for him.  Chicks like him, and you know there are lots of guys out there like that.  You may find it unbelievable, but I can honestly tell you it happens all the time with much more cheesy lines. Sometimes, cheesy lines are supposed to be cheesy and they actually work because of that.  Sometimes, guys play the innocent act and it also works when it’s pulled off properly.  IMO, it all plays out very realistically, but I understand where you’re coming from.  Maybe, it’s simply a suspension of disbelief in scripts of this genre.

Maia came in late and I didn’t want to go into anymore detail about who or what she was.  Wanted to leave it up to the readers to decide for themselves exactly what the deal was.

I agree that people will either like or dislike the duality of the pickup scenes.  There are subtle differences, but I really like how it reads, and how it would play out onscreen.

As I said earlier, in a rewrite, Logan will have a different car when he meets Maia.  Keep in mind, no bodies have been found, and really no foul play even, so it’s not like any cops would be able to track Logan down.

BTW, what old guy at a gas station are you referring to?  You mean the guy that Logan borrowed a cell from?  He’d never remember anything about it…everyone is drinking, partying, and everyone’s wearing Packers jerseys…they all sort of blend in, and there’s no reason that he’d think anything of it at the time.

The glue and self scalping is possible.  Again, it’s something that you just have to kind of suspend disbelief on.  If you watch a lot of horror movies, you’ll realize that just about everything that happens is unlikely or downright impossible.  As for the “tiny” incision, it may well be much bigger than “tiny”.  That’s just how Logan worded it.  Or, I could just take out the word “tiny”, and maybe that would work better for you and others.

I’m glad you liked Maia.  Not sure what you mean exactly about the “hitmen” scripts.  I played Maia as a smartass in a way, but only to give Logan exactly what he deserved.  The Protector angle is obviously not developed at all. Wanted each to read in what they wanted.  She’s definitely not human, though.  She works for herself and rights the evils that are brought upon innocent females.  Just wanted to change things up a bit and bring in an element of surprise.

Rob, we’ve had similar discussions before involving “speed bumps, ease of kills, and Crisis being King”. I don’t agree with this standard, and IMO, run of the mill, plotting.  Just about every movie of this sort has things working out the same way…escapes, running around, chases, etc.  Funny thing is that although the Protag seems to have a chance in this scenario, you know damn well what’s going to happen each and every time.  I like being different and I tend to stay away from the tried and true plot structure and plotting itself.

Glad you liked the dialogue for the most part.  You know I’m a talky script person for sure!  I can’t agree with you about the killer monologue here, though.  Keep in mind that all 3 victim kills occurred OS, meaning you don’t know when the kills actually took place.  Originally, there was much more on this, but the page length got way too long.  Logan’s aim wasn’t to simply abduct these girls and kill them immediately.  He wanted to “play” with them for as long as he could, as long as they played along as well.  Therefor, when Logan filled Em in on what was going down, he was merely giving her an opportunity for survival.  Actually, in an earlier draft, Em is still alive when Maia shows up, meaning she played along and stayed alive for 2 weeks.  In the end, it required too much in between games, and I decided to cut it and have her dead when Maia came to play.

You’re definitely correct, that in a filmed version, no one would know that Logan is actually Logan, telling people he’s Tyler.  I think on paper, it works this way, and being such a perfectionist, IMO, it only makes sense to use the character’s actual name in the dialogue boxes.  I hear ya here for sure, bud!

No problem about this not being your thing.  I’m always after people’s honest opinions, and yours always counts and means a lot to me.  Thanks, Rob!

Hi Jeff,

The good:

Well written, well paced. The ending was very apt and worked well. Also liked the way he introduced the previous prisoners.

The bad:

1. Unbelievable mechanics between Logan and Emma. Just didn't buy it at all that she would go off with him so soon.

I noticed that you dealt with this point earlier with one of the classic excuses of the writer (this actually happened! or "this kind of thing happens all the time in real life").

The thing is real life doesn't come into it. It has to believable in your particular story, not in the multiple possibilities of real life. It has to be believable that this particular girl would just run off with this particular guy. It's an easy thing to rectify though. He needs to give her a reason to go with her that no-one else could. Doesn't have to be amazing, just a bit stronger than it is.

EDIT: Pia's advice on that is very good. Women understand women.


2. Too much of the story was revealed in dialogue. Cut down on the talking and give us some more action beats, particularly at the point Emma is in captivity. You have a slow build up in the first half, then all of a sudden everything happens at once when the actual story starts.

EDIT: I've just seen your response to a similar criticism from Rob. All I would say is, you don't fix what ain't broken. Some things are fairly standard because they are natural ways to build tension and elicit fear and anticipation in the audience. If you are going to not use them, they have to be replaced with something else, not simply ommitted. Otherwise you are throwing the baby out with the bath water so to speak. You are making it even more predictable, just a lot quicker and not allowing any time for us to even consider she may survive.

This is especially the case as you are so fond of the slow build. We basically just get a tiny portion of the story when it kicks in. There's absolutely no point in spending a lot of time with a character, just to dispense with their suffering at the end.  It lessens the emotional impact and so defeats the entire purpose of doing it.

3. The reveal of the Protector thing totally threw me out of the story. It just came out of nowhere and struck me as though you'd just thrown it in because you didn't know where to take the story. I'm sure that's not the case, but it really needs foreshadowing if you are going down that route. As it was it just seemed on the verge of laughable to me. Not least because the logic of it doesn't make a lot of sense. She's a supernatural creature who protects girls, but what about the rest of them? Where was she then?

I know you tried to cover that plot hole with dialogue, but it didn't really wash.

Overall, a bit of a mixed bag. Just a standard torture porn thing with mutilated titties and some gratuitous nudity and then a Deus Ex Machina ending but solidly written with a good "weight" to the story.

I have to say, if I saw it as a film, I'd feel a little cheated. No offence. There's no morality at work in here. The bad guy gets his desserts, but I don't know, it's cold and lifeless somehow, a very negative view of the world where violence and brutality is the only way to combat violence and brutality. I can see why you like Hostel so much and why Don was unsure about posting it. It's not the violence, it's the dirtiness of it. It's morbid and gratuitous and has no humanity.

I think there's a better story in there.

Either one that is more myseterious in tone and takes us on a few more twists and turns and foreshadows and adds to the supernatural thing at the end.

Or one that is more in keeping with the title and with the idea of opening his heart with the key. Perhaps if the demon woman at the end was an angel and killed him in a more beautiful, poetic manner it would ne more impacting. She kills him but "opens his heart" and releases him.

You'd need to set that up by having Logan mentioning something along the lines of the fact that he feels a genuine connection with Maia, changing the emphasis of thei conversation and having him revealing his true feelings for once.

I know for a fact that you won't like that. Ha ha.

Actually, thinking about it, the story just starts in the wrong place. It would be better if we saw him killing Emma at the start, then going to find his next victim, Maia. We should get to know Maia and get to like her (she can be feisty and hard to get like she is at the end, just not quite as in control just yet). Really play with our emotions, making us worry for this girl, develop the chemistry and stiffen the belief that she would go with him.  Then have the reveal and you get the delicious irony of the hunter becoming the hunted. That way you have the tension running all the way through the script and we are fearful for Maia.

Yeah, the middle of page 12 is your opening scene. Kill Emma off and then get cracking on Maia.

I know you really like the slow build ups, but it doesn't really work here or in short form at all IMO. You get in and get out.

Sandra, Sandra, my dearest Sandra.  You know I love ya, babe!  I’ve got lots of issues with your words and feedback here, and I’ve struggled with how to respond, but in the end, you know I’ll be me, and let you know exactly how I feel.  Maybe that’s why I hold a special place in your heart.

First of all, thank you for reading and providing commentary.  I appreciate everyone’s feedback, good, bad, or indifferent.  I really do.

Thank you for the compliment on the technical aspects of my script and writing in general.  That’s always nice to hear.  I’ll take any and all “10’s” I can get!

From there, though, I’m quite surprised at the tone of your feedback.  It’s very mean hearted and as far as I can remember, by far the most uncomplimentary I’ve ever read from you, regarding any and all scripts you’ve ever commented on.

99% of your feedback on scripts is wildly complimentary.  I mean you gush and gush over anything and everything, throwing out compliments that are so far from warranted.  In a way, I always get a kick reading your feedback, as you come across as being a person that loves just about everything you lay your eyes on.  That’s all fine and cool, as some are less critical than others, and some are very easily pleased and entertained.  Obviously, this is not the case here.

I doubt anyone wants to hear a line like, “You are without anything that sets you apart.”.  I find this remark to be completely uncalled for, whether or not you hate the script or think it’s a piece of shit.  It’s a very “Baltis-like” comment that seems very out of character from you.

It’s fine to make assumptions or read things into one’s writing, but I can guarantee you that I’m not stuck in any (writing) ruts nor coasting.

Giving me a “zero” on a creativity scale is also quite troubling.  It may not be your cup of tea, and you probably found it disturbing, and/or even sexist or just downright degrading to women, but a ZERO?  C’mon now.  That’s just not nice, Sandra.  You want to see some Zero’s on the creative scale, I can point out numerous scripts and movies, but I take offense to this here, as I highly doubt you’ve read or seen anything quite like this, in terms of details and tone.

Another very mean spirited remark is, “This script feels completely canned. Processed to the point where it's not even Cheese Whiz anymore.”.  WTF?  What is so canned about this?  Why throw in the Cheese Wiz comment?  Just downright mean, IMO.

How have I deviated from the tone of the Soul Shadows anthology?  Have you read and commented on all of them so far?  I know I have, and I know each is unique in its tone and story.  It’s actually up to each writer to bring his/her own perspective on what it should be.  Who are you to tell me or anyone else what is correct or incorrect in terms of this?  I just don’ get it, and I’d love to hear you elaborate on this.

PRC has absolutely nothing to do with this.  In fact, PRC is supposed to be as light as possible in terms of onscreen horror and the like.  Again, no clue where this comparison is coming from…or why it’s here at all.

I know exactly where my heart is, Sandra.  I’m sure it’s not at all where yours is, but I’m OK with that.  Thanks for the solid writer compliment, again.

I’d love to hear more from you on this.  As I said, I truly appreciate any and all feedback and opinions.  Your tone here doesn’t seem to be that you’re giving me much feedback, but more like you’re telling me things you have absolutely no clue about.  Sorry to sound upset, but I am.  I find this commentary to be very mean spirited with very little actual feedback on the script and story itself.  Hope you understand where I’m coming from.

Hey Pia, thanks for the read and feedback.  Always much appreciated from you.

In terms of the gore, most took place OS, and I think the extremeness of it was more in the tone and feel of it, which is what I was after.  Also, I think the fact that it was played straight up, made it seem more brutal…and real, maybe.  Much of the dialogue was quite extreme as well and was most likely stuff many aren’t used to seeing.  I was definitely going for a disturbing feel.

It’s cool if and when people are hard…as long as they’re honest and offer reasons for what they’re saying, I’m totally fine with it.  Any and all feedback is positive, IMO.  When people have a strong reaction to something, positive or negative, I feel like it’s a success for that reason alone.

A few have the same issue in terms of the believability of some actions from some of the characters.  I understand that.  I don’t agree with it, but I definitely understand it.  I think a good example of why I feel this is very believable is the true life story of Ted Bundy.  Bundy did this exact sort of thing time and time again.  He had something about him that made women feel at ease.  They trusted him and didn’t feel threatened.  Everyone is different and people make horrendous decisions all the time.  Also, again, I think people need a certain level of suspense of disbelief.

I don’t think Logan was bragging about his riches, and what he said about his Dad was a lie.  What he said about the boat was also a lie.  Pretty much everything he said was a lie, but IMO, it came off as believable.

I wasn’t after writing a script about the how’s and why’s of anything.  I like leaving those things to the readers imagination.  Maia is the same deal.  No explanation other than what is revealed.  Who is she?  What is she?  Why is she doing this?  I don’t think it matters in terms of what this script is, and I purposely had no intention of providing anymore information on it.

Thanks again, Pia.  I really appreciate it. Pia.

Quoted from Dreamscale PRC has absolutely nothing to do with this.  In fact, PRC is supposed to be as light as possible in terms of onscreen horror and the like.  Again, no clue where this comparison is coming from…or why it’s here at all.

You're absolutely correct. I realized after the fact, thinking, PRC is meant to work on the psychological aspects and not be graphic.

I didn't get the chance to edit it because I've been hell bent on getting a Magic of Letters script up as a personal OWC I had with myself.

You can beat me up with it soon.  

I surely may have been hard on you, Jeff. I thought it would do you some good to hear how I felt and how I felt was that this was purely using things I've seen before, (and I haven't seen that much), but my instincts tell me that your work feels like it's overly dependent on the gore, but I felt it just turned into a big gore fest.

You know, in much the same way, I think that Thief, as has been commented on, turned into too much of a "shit show". I'm wondering if when we get too controlled by one aspect, we screw ourselves around royally. We can probably find these instances in countless scripts.

We need to balance the pace of so many aspects and that's why it's pure Hell to get it right.

In this case however, I think you have to keep in mind that I'm very desensitized to pure violence. I don't know why that is, but to me it's just a cheap device we. Not just you, but me too, use without really knowing why.

Remember Jeff, I still think of Fade To White and this felt like a really good show to me.

I felt you had the images and that BBQ in the beginning. I felt like you were completely inside of that script, but this one, not so much at all.

That's why I wrote that I felt it was all mechanics and processed like Cheese Whiz. It might have a lot of flavor and a whole young generation of horror fans might love it, but for me, I didn't feel it.

When I get back from the trip, I'll try and look closely to see where I feel the script falls down.

It has to do with the story though. Somehow it has to do with when we break into the whole torture thing.

What I'll try and do too, is find some examples of what I feel good about in this script.

There's always good. And I want to sincerely apologize if I had to be a heavy, but I was speaking my honest feelings about what I had read.

There's no taking it back now, and you know, I don't think it would be right to do so.

Sandra

Quoted from Dreamscale A few have the same issue in terms of the believability of some actions from some of the characters.  I understand that.  I don�t agree with it, but I definitely understand it.  I think a good example of why I feel this is very believable is the true life story of Ted Bundy.  Bundy did this exact sort of thing time and time again.  He had something about him that made women feel at ease.  They trusted him and didn�t feel threatened.  Everyone is different and people make horrendous decisions all the time.  Also, again, I think people need a certain level of suspense of disbelief. .

Honestly, I can't tell you how many times Producers get upset at this kind of thinking. Execs who give seminars on writing and such always bring this point up. Drama is not real life. You set the rules yourself in your script, it's not judged by peoples experience of their life or what is possible in the Universe, but by the logic and believability of your script and the evidence that you present us with.

You go into the cinema with fresh eyes. People can't bring knowledge of Ted Bundy to your script. Besides, how do you know what Ted said to those women? He might have used some of the best lines ever. Whatever Ted said may have been believable, it doesn't mean that the interaction in your writing is.

For the record Bundy had numerous tactics he used to gain trust. He feigned injuries like broken arms or legs. Or he would impersonate an authority figure like a Policeman. Hoist by your own petard, as the Bard said.

Your approach was to make us believe that he could make women essentially fall in love at first sight. A large mountain to climb, one that requires some fairly incredible and honest lines.

I think in some ways you've even tried to avoid being believable. You cut out a part of the conversation and jump from them meeting to being almost soulmates and try to deflect the cheesy key line by highlighting it yourself in dialogue. It's manipulative and lots of people won't buy it.

I'm not trying to be arsey or confrontational here by the way, just pointing out that scripts and films are about what the audience takes from it. Intentions and your own thinking don't really matter, the work is only what exists in the mind of others. There are no excuses in films. They are what they are. Anything that is intended to be in there and is intended to be understood by the audience needs to be spelled out.

If you want the majority to believe that Logan is so attractive in both looks and personality that he can get any girl to waltz off with him in an instant, you have to throw out the lines that prove it. Alternatively, you do a Bundy and cheat.  

Quoted from Dreamscale A few have the same issue in terms of the believability of some actions from some of the characters.  I understand that.  I don’t agree with it, but I definitely understand it.  I think a good example of why I feel this is very believable is the true life story of Ted Bundy.  Bundy did this exact sort of thing time and time again.  He had something about him that made women feel at ease.  They trusted him and didn’t feel threatened.  Everyone is different and people make horrendous decisions all the time.  Also, again, I think people need a certain level of suspense of disbelief.

My issue with the believability is that he brags about yachts and stuff and then says my dad is an ex cop. How many ex cops live their lives as high flying millionaires? I personally think you need her to get interested in him as a person not as a rich son...
Seriously, it doesn't ring true at all. Make her go with him because of him. Not some "I'm rich and I know you gonna fall for it" device. I'm with decadence here.

Quoted from Grandma Bear My issue with the believability is that he brags about yachts and stuff and then says my dad is an ex cop. How many ex cops live their lives as high flying millionaires? I personally think you need her to get interested in him as a person not as a rich son... Seriously, it doesn't ring true at all. Make her go with him because of him. Not some "I'm rich and I know you gonna fall for it" device. I'm with decadence here.

That missed me on the surface level.

Pushed forward now, I can see where you're coming from and this might be the reason I felt it was off, but I didn't have a clear understanding of why, except that I felt it was... I'm going to use the lame words: "Over the top" for lack of anything else  entering into the circuitry right now.

I don't even think the actions were over the top for the character doing the evil deeds, but I think that he came on too suddenly and the context wasn't built up firstly.

This might be the key to fixing this.

Regarding the complaints about the girl's intelligence-- that she would have obviously known a little more and her going along with the "I'm rich thing" seemed weak.

It's not necessarily so.

As long as Jeff paints the girl as gullible, it won't matter.

Again, it's a matter of context. We can write completely "wrong", but if "our wrong" is fitting naturally into "our universe" and it is compatible with it, then it will work.

There are many  women and men that can be led to believe almost anything. I don't think it means that they're stupid, but that they're without the experience that allows them to discern the situation.

It all boils down to how Jeff sees the character and how he wants to write her.

The bottom line is:

The construct of the world needs to ring true to the character--

Not our own perceived world as ringing true based against our own world.

In order for this switcheroo to take place,

The construct needs to be laid out in the beginning.

It's probably the mark of a very strong writer, where they create a context early on--

And hold it throughout.

If that happens, then we're always weighing the scales against "the writer's" perceptions as well as our own. They start mingling with us.

Sandra

Quoted from Dreamscale Not sure what you mean exactly about the “hitmen” scripts.

Sorry, Jeff, I should have elaborated on this.

In the "Short" section there are dozens upon dozens of script where the antag is either a hitman or an assassin. The protag usually runs into the antag in some dark place - and always alone - and the antag proceeds to spout off some long and (supposedly) cool monologue before he kills the protag. Total BS.

Like I said, there's alot of these scripts in the "Short"-section and all of them - with a very few exceptions - suck because they are pointless storywise.

Now, my comment to you was only regarding that this was used as an element in your story - not in regards to the story as a whole.

Hope this makes sense.