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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Drama Scripts  ›  Thistles Moderators: bert
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  Author    Thistles  (currently 15366 views)
Don
Posted: October 5th, 2011, 4:55pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Thistles by Mark Lyons (rc1107) - Drama, Independent - An introverted white teacher tutors a gifted black student in a violent urban neighborhood. 83 pages - pdf, format


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Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown)
Don  -  August 2nd, 2014, 7:06am
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rc1107
Posted: October 5th, 2011, 11:53pm Report to Moderator
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thistles2


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grademan
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Hey Mark,

Read your story. I wasn't sure to expect. I liked it.

The opening scene was not a grabber. Although it makes sense in the end, it could still use more of a hook.

The main character's name, Sazha, is hard to pronounce with the Z. Perhaps Sasha will be easier. Also, your description of Sazha did not say she was a girl. It took me a couple paragraphs to figure that out.

You know I will call you on this. Bolding and transitions. Don't like them. Especially the cuts.

The teacher's instruction on English was way too complex for sixth grade. I doubt I could understand that in English at college.

Interesting use of words: not handsome. Not unhandsome.

I understand the title. If the saying is yours congratulations. If it's somebody else's, please give them credit. Nice artwork. Wink.

The advice given by Sazha to the teacher was years beyond her experience.

SPOILER!

When she threatens her brother to be quiet, she threatens him with revealing his pot smoking. That seems insignificant if he was sleeping with her. She should have threatened him with that.

The teacher returned to the classroom with backbone, he makes a comment regarding girls hair. I thought that was a bit too much.

I haven't seen MOS used so much in a script.

I thought it was neat how you revealed that Turrel was possibly the father.

You lose your PG-13 rating. That scene was nasty but I couldn't stop reading. Signature scene.

I could smell trouble as soon as 12-year-old girl invited herself to the teacher's house.

On page 24 when I saw the word plumeria I figured out the gist of the story.

When the teacher committed suicide I believed it.

I felt the girl should do something nasty to Cora to humiliate her.

I also felt that Cora should have a crisis over her antiabortion views.

Was there symbol for the white rose or the thistles? If so, I missed it.

There were a number spelling errors.

Overall, I liked the story. When I read the log line, the story did not grab me and wondered how you're going to make an interesting story out of it. Well you did!

I liked the girl, the teacher and Mr. Smithers. Who would star as a 12-year-old girl for this?

This would be a gritty film.

Gary
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rc1107
Posted: October 8th, 2011, 1:10pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Gary.

Thank you very much for taking a look at this one, and thanks for the detailed notes in PDF you e-mailed me with all the mistakes.  That's a really cool way to review somebody's script for them and helps a lot.  Now if only I could figure out how you did that, I may be of more help with the scripts I read for people.  (I'm not very technologically advanced)  I'm sure I'll figure it out sooner or later, though.

I'm glad that you liked it.  I know it more than most likely won't garnish any 'Feel Good Script of the Year' awards, but I'm glad you enjoyed it enough to stick it through the end.  I know it might push limits for some people and they might not want to finish.

As for Sazha's name... well, I just needed a black name and that one just kind of rolled off the tongue for me.  And it's really not that rare, either.  I see what you mean about not knowing she was a girl at first.  I just took for granted that people would know it's a common black girl's name.  I'll make sure I identify her a little better.

Crandall is teaching Sazha some advanced English, yes, but really, what he's teaching the class is simply just past tense verbs, (words that end in -ed), which I know I learned in at least fourth grade, and I know my girlfriend's son already has a great grasp on it already at age 11.  The reason why it does sound so difficult is because I wanted it to be obvious that Crandall was not teaching by his own method, that he was a man who has pretty much given up on everything and was reading just directly from the text book.  In the scene where he gets the class interested in the new book, I wanted to show more that Crandall was dumbing down the English for them, doing it his own way, but I didn't want to go on with what could be a rather boring scene.

I mentioned originally that Crandall picks up a book off his shelf written by Jose Martin, but I guess I sliced it off when I was trying to trim the descriptions down in a redraft.  I will have to put that back in because I do love that saying, and I do want to give him the credit for it.

I came across the saying years ago, and I forget where.  It wasn't in any of Jose Martin's books.  I don't remember the saying exactly because it was in Spanish when I read it, but I translated and reworded it a little myself, just from memory, so I don't know exactly how close it is, but I know the theme is there.  I might have to look for it online and compare and contrast it.

I also see what you mean about Sazha threatening with the pot-smoking.  I never thought about that.  I'll have to go back to that part and imply that he's doing something really bad, but I don't want it to be revealed just yet.

That reveal, though it was always was in my head, I didn't add it in until one of the last drafts.  I added it just to see if I liked it, planning on taking it back out if it cluttered everything up.  But, after a lot of deliberation, I think it adds another element to the story.  Another element for why Sazha's psyche is the way it is.  I'm glad to see it worked for you.


Quoted from grademan
I felt the girl should do something nasty to Cora to humiliate her.


I thought about that, and initially wanted Sazha to have some sort of revenge, but I also wanted Sazha to follow the metaphoric theme of the saying, about growing white roses for people instead of thistles.  Even the cruel ones.

As far as who would star as Sazha, I have no idea.  I had absolutely nobody in mind when I wrote this.  I just wrote the characters and hope the actress can pull Sazha's feelings and characteristics off.

In fact, the only character I did sort of cast in my mind was Smithers.  I pictured Tom Waits, (who has been known to flex an acting muscle every now and then), as Smithers.

Thank you again very much, Gary, for taking a look-see at this.  Your notes are very much appreciated.  I'll e-mail you either when I get off work late late tonight, or in the morning with replies to the more detailed notes you sent me PDF.

Thanks again!

- Mark


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grademan
Posted: October 8th, 2011, 2:32pm Report to Moderator
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Mark,

Glad to help, the PDF thing requires Adobe Reader X (free)

Here's a thought: If Sazha is NOT going to take revenge, then you might show her about to do something to Cora than stopping so the audience knows it was an active decision. The way of the white rose in action,

Gary
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leitskev
Posted: October 9th, 2011, 8:45pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark

Just finished the first half. I had promised myself to read 25, but the script is such a breeze I kept going. Your work is very easy to read. No stumbling blocks in the descriptions, sensible dialogue, appropriate number of characters. No need to reread sections, which I very much appreciate.

I messaged you explaining I would try to analyze from these categories: protag development, antag, inciting incident, break into two, goals, stakes, urgency, intrigue. And also whether the opening page and the opening 10 pages is effective at grabbing the reader. So I'll begin there.

protag: I'm not sure if it's Sazha or Mr Crandell. I guess it's both, though we start with Sazha. I think we get a good picture of both characters. It is often suggested that a protag should have a strong goal and be active about pursuing that goal. I think both characters do that to a sold degree. Sasha wants an education, so she aggressively pursues private studies with her teacher. Mr Crandel is passive at first, but with Sasha's encouragement tries to take control of his classroom.

antag: none to speak of, unless you want to say the neighborhood.

inciting incident: Sazha getting naked p 17

break into 2: Turrell's death p 37

stakes: the stakes are low in the first half, though they are building with Turrell's death and Mr Crandel's getting fired.(no unions in this school?)

urgency, intrigue: none by the half way point.

general discussion: I have some problems with the marketability of the script with this inciting incident. A 12 year old girl asks for private lessons at a teacher's apartment(odd), he agrees(odder still), and she gets naked and throws herself at him(I can't see a producer wanting to touch that). In today's age, people are very conscious about potential sexual situations with minors. Mr Crandel would never allow a student to come into his apartment for a lesson. Even if everything was innocent, it looks really, really, really, really bad. But let's assume this man is the most naive man in the world and allows this. Will a director want to film it? A 12 year old getting naked and throwing herself at an adult, trying to grab his junk?

For that matter, the conversation of the teens before this scene strikes me as something a director would avoid. Look, I'm not naive, I know that stuff happens nowadays, but 12 and 13 year old kids talking about blow jobs and hand jobs is not the kind of thing for film, IMO.

So for me, the question is can you get rid of these elements and still have your story? And I think the answer is yes. Sazha does not need to get naked for her brother to see something he misinterprets. She could even take her shirt off for some reason while in the bed room, maybe to remove a stain, I don't know, and Mr Crandel never knows, but Turrel sees it.

I guess that changes a lot of your premise, but I just think this 12 or 13 year old naked black girl throwing herself at an older white male is a nonstarter.

The story does succeed in building dramatic tension and is well written, so you have a strong foundation to work with here.

One other suggestion: I would like to see a little more on Crandel's project to take over his class. I didn't really understand that part as it currently stands. I think you need more than some book to excite their interest. And that part of a story like this, the winning of the class's attention, is always critical in these stories.

Ok, Mark, I will finish tomorrow. I took PDF notes too, though the writing is pretty tight, so not much needed there.

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rc1107
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Hey Kevin.

Thank you for taking the time to read this.  I won't go into too many things about the story or characters right now since you're not finished with it.  I don't want to accidently ruin the vampire ending or anything.

But I will say that I did try some different things, especially with the characters, in this one.  I'll get more into that after you're finished.  And I will also admit that you are right about the marketability factor.  This is definately not a Hollywood script.  And I didn't write it for it to be sold or even produced.  (Don't get me wrong, I'll still whore the script out to every director that's written to me these past couple months, but I have no qualms about just letting this one languish on the shelf after I finish the final draft.)  It's just a story that popped into my head that I wanted to tell.  That's why I wanted to slap an Independent label on this one.  And because of that, I did take some liberties with the characterizations of antags and protags.

But I'll get into it more whenever you have time to finish it all.

And I do want to clear up a typo that I didn't mean.  Sazha is 13.  Not 12.  Not that it makes much of a difference, but I do label her as 12 in the beginning, then she says she's 13 later in the story.  (Or earlier in the story, however you want to look at it.)  That 12 was supposed to be a 13.

Anyway, thanks again for taking a look, Kevin.  I look forward to hearing from you again and I'll let you know what I was trying to do while writing this.

- Mark


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leitskev
Posted: October 12th, 2011, 3:52pm Report to Moderator
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Mark, sorry I didn't finish the script yet. For some reason this OWC has been a struggle, so I got stuck on that. I just finished a draft, and it's about the worst thing I've ever written, and that's a bold statement since I no doubt have plenty of clunkers. Hopefully I can fix it up somewhat, but I'm going to take a break from it and finish your script tonight. your stuff is easy to read, so it's definitely a break from work.
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leitskev
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Finished the script. I hope some other regulars will look at it for you. Emailed my notes and thoughts.

As you will see from that, this was just way too much for me. It made Jeff's recent OWC look like The Sound of Music. There's just way too much brutality and things go so far over the boundary of what's acceptable in film in terms of sexual portrayal that this script is untouchable, IMO. To be honest, I think in the US it would be a violation of child pornography laws, though I know that is not at all your intention.

I realize this is meant as serious, heart ripping drama. And it is, too. And you are a veteran writer who executes the pages very well. Drama is your talent, too, you portray it well. It's just too much, I think.
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rc1107
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Hey Kev.

I know  this one was going to be a really hard one to get through.  Sorry for putting you through that.  Trust me, as hard as it was to read, it was just as uncomfortable to write.  Even for me.  I don't know if you've ever read some of my other really really gritty stuff, but in case you hadn't, I don't like to hide the violence.  The violence isn't hidden in real life, so why hide the violence in a story that I'm trying to make as real life as possible?  Maybe there's someone who has a temperment a lot like Cora's, and the next time she's about to lose it, she'll remember that movie that didn't hide the disgusting results of violence, and it might make her stop and think for a moment.  Fat chance, I know, but I still wanna try.

And although this wasn't based on anybody explicit, I did get the idea for this when I heard about a mother here in Youngstown who beat the bejesus out of her pregnant daughter with some sort of stick.  I don't know the details as I just heard about it through word of mouth, but I just wanted to be clear that this story wasn't just done for shock.  I wanted to convey a message and wanted to shine a light on things that sometimes get swept up underneath the carpet and forgot about, only to be repeated again later on.

Lol.  In regards to Jeff's 'What a Wonderful World', I read people's comments on it and saw they didn't care for the depressing nature of it.  (Although I liked it.)  When I read that, I knew this one wasn't going to go over so well.

But this story is what it is.  I am proud of it.  I love the characters.  I felt for them.  They had good traits, all of them, and they had bad traits.  Just like regular people.  Not everybody acts like heroes.  In fact, in this town I live in, I think there's very few.  I hate it here.  I want to move so bad.  But while I'm here, I'm going to shine the flashlight on every gritty story I come across in this place, and I'm not going to hide anything that I see.

Well, except maybe for this, which just happened here a week or two ago:

http://www.wfmj.com/global/cat.....t&clipId=6329593

I'm not touching that one.  Raping their own 13-month old daughter in a visit AT CHILDREN'S SERVICES!  And recording it on a cell phone!  And you thought 13 years old was bad?   I've been writing a story about the Children Services Bureau here for the past couple months, but not even I am going to think about tackling that story.

In regards to filming this, of course I don't expect the director, or the production company, to shoot this frame by frame.  I fully expect them to (like I was talking about before, about hiding violence) pan up when things get too rough down there.  But I wrote what happens in the story.  I did my job.  It's up to the director now to take it as far as he wants to go.

And I don't see it as too much of a task to avoid child pornography laws.  Especially because Sazha's a bigger boned girl, there's probably quite a few 18 year-olds out there who can pass themselves off as several years younger.  Just like there's enough 13 year-old girls who could pass themselves off as 18.  Plus, Sazha's very advanced for her age, remember, so I think the audience'll buy a young-looking 18 year-old as Sazha.

If no director or company wants to touch it, that's okay.  I understand.  I'm happy enough with it as a story just in my documents folder.

And I understand also, how the story didn't appeal to you.  And trust me, I don't blame you one bit for how you feel about it.  :-)  I just snuck off and read the e-mail you sent me.  I'll address it to you more in private.

Thank you for the kind words, though, and trying to slosh through the end as best as you could.  I really do appreciate it and I'll be talking to you in a bit.  (Although I don't know if I'll be able to send you an e-mail, tonight.  I got off pretty late and I'm ready for bed.)  But I really appreciate you taking a look and telling me your thoughts.

- Mark


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leitskev
Posted: October 13th, 2011, 8:46am Report to Moderator
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Picture this Mark. Let's try a reverse example, sunshine instead of gloom.

Let's say our story is about an overweight, pimply, shy and clumsy girl named Clara. She works in a nowhere job, lives in a tiny apartment, has no friends. Then an amazing thing happens one day, and she gets a letter saying she has been selected to be on her favorite show, Dancing with the Stars in a new feature where a member of the public is brought on. She's excited, but then later in the day, she gets in a fender bender with Brad Pitt, who is struck like a bolt of lightning and falls in love with her. At lunch, she gets a huge job promotion to VP, but it doesn't matter long because later in the day she finds out she won the lottery of 99 million dollars! And if all this isn't good enough, she gets a visit that night and finds out that Royal Genealogists have discovered she is long lost royalty and is in the Princess who stands in line to inherit the throne. So Clara's life has turned around.

This, for me, was the main problem with both Thistle and It's a Wonderful World. It's too much. In Thistle, first shock is the 13 year old girls talking about blow jobs and hand jobs. Not too much of a shock as no doubt it happens, but not something you see in film. Then the 13 yr old gets the teacher to agree to tutor her at home, a very unlikely possibility that any sensible teacher would avoid. While there, she simply gets naked and throws herself at him. And it just so happens her brother can see this from his apartment. A lot of unlikely things are adding up. But this story is just getting started.

After the brother gets killed, and the teacher gets fired(unions would not allow this), and the teacher, who is already a recovering alcoholic who has lost his wife and kid to tragic death, returns to drinking and ends up drinking mouthwash when he runs out of cash, the girl once again throws herself at him, and this time he allows it. After the sex, she calls him from her cell and brags about pushing his juices inside her...a 13 yr old girl. But we're not done.

The mother, who's job seems to be protesting abortions, beats the infant in the womb to death when she finds out, and to top it off, the mother finds out the brother had been banging the sister anyway.

You see what I'm saying? The problem isn't just that this is too shocking or too gritty. The problem is this is too much. Any one event by itself might be extremely unlikely, but movies are about unlikely things, and the unlikely does happen in life. But when so much unlikely happens, as with my Clara example, you lose the audience. It becomes way too far beyond belief.

Actually, I think this problem is fairly common with non professional writers, and I'm sure I am guilty of it too. We want to make a point, and we POUR it on. But what happens is not what you expect. What you a re trying to drive home does not become more shocking, but less. Think of a horror movie where everyone dies. At some point you become immune to it, and you don't care. It's too much.

I think that's where you should consider taking this. You are looking for shock and grit. The grit can be a little more subtle, and then hammer things home with one really shocking thing. You want that event to stand out, so you want to isolate it, put a spotlight on it.

For example, what if the first time Sazha throws herself at the teacher is changed. What if everything is completely innocent there, but somehow looks bad to her brother. The tension would result from the fact that while they are acting innocently, they are acting unwisely in being alone in his apartment, and from our vantage point, we will be uncomfortable. We'll be happy when nothing happens, and we'll appreciate the sweetness of their innocent relationship.

And then the fight happens where the brother dies because of what he had misunderstood. He thinks he is protecting his sister. True tragedy, and we'll feel it powerfully.

Then, in a shocking twist, Sazha has sex with the teacher. They are both lonely, vulnerable in a bleak and gritty world, and it happens. It's wrong, but it's not so much an animalistic act as the actions of two isolated people who connect.

No raunchy cell call when it's done, either. That ruins any effect you were looking for.  That just makes her a 13 yr old ho.

And no revelation about sex with her brother. That also ruins any of the ironic drama you have succeeded in building up, especially with Turrel's hiding place where he stores photos of happier times. Come on, why the F is that in there? That needs to change.

And then finally, when Cora attacks Sazha, it has to be less of a conscious act, and more of a reaction, like it was earlier with the woman at the abortion clinic. That's where, again, the irony is effective. You have a woman who spends her life protesting abortion, and in a fit of rage she accidentally kills her daughter's baby. But it has to be unintentional for this to be effective and ironic.

Does this make sense? I think a lot of people will react to this the same way I have, but maybe I'm wrong. Unfortunately, most will probably just stay quiet. You write drama well, and I think if you tone this back, it will actually be more shocking and more powerful.

Kevin

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leitskev  -  October 13th, 2011, 1:55pm
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thebloodfiend
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I agree with Kevin. In a few hours, I will post a detailed review.  


"In our world," said Eustace, "a star is a huge ball of flaming gas." "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is, but only what it is made of."

We don't know very much, but we know that something went wrong somewhere, somehow. So we can't believe that what you call the truth is true.
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thebloodfiend
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With my reviews, I'm terribly blunt, regardless of whether it's a script, novel, movie, so I'm going to tell you up front -- I didn't like this. If you don't have a thick skin, don't read on. I curse a lot and I try to be as honest as I possibly can.

*SPOILERS AHOY*

What's the basic premise of your story? Black people screw up and have incestuous sex? Maybe there's some "deep" message about human nature hidden behind it. If there is, I don't see it. This is Precious. This is For Colored Girls. This is The Color Purple. There's nothing new here, and the fact that there isn't infuriates me.

But, I'll address the problems I had with the script structure first, rather than the actual story.

This is an indie drama, which, I guess, could kind of excuse the thin plot. Maybe. No, not really.

This is your logline: An introverted white teacher tutors a gifted black student in an increasingly violent urban neighborhood.

When I read it, I instantly thought of Finding Forrester or Akeelah and the Bee. Both of them won the Nicholl. Why? Because they were feel good, magical negro stories.

You've got the anti-thesis of that. It's what I like to call misery porn. Truth is stranger than fiction. While you can use real life examples to back up your work, you still have to adhere to the believability quotient of film. I don't care if Billy of Nebraska got struck with lightning seventeen times and hit with an truck forty times by his dad in real life. For a script, I'm not going to believe it unless it's presented in an accurate way. Here, it's not.

It reads like you're trying too hard to be Spike Lee. The difference between this and Clockers? There was a story to offset the misery. Every character had a goal. What's Sasha's goal?

Fuck her white teacher.

Once she fucks him, that's it. When she gets pregnant, it feels like a different script. By the way, I saw the incest coming from a mile away. I'm wondering if all scripts about black people have to have them fucking their relatives or working as maids or dealing drugs in the hood. Seriously.

Anyway, if Sasha (I refuse to spell Sazha) isn't the protagonist -- as she doesn't really drive the script other than trying to seduce the teacher -- it must be the teacher. Unfortunately, he dies before the second act ends. It's not him. This isn't No Country For Old Men.

So, if I don't have a protagonist to identify with, what's the point? I don't like large sprawling dramas with unlikable/uninteresting stereotypes and a bunch of reverse moralizing.

Which brings me to my next point: where's the structure? What's your inciting incident? Is it Sasha trying to seduce the teacher or the teacher killing her brother? And what do these have to do with pushing the story forward?

What is this story about? It's not about a teacher helping a gifted student. He doesn't help her and she's not particularly gifted.

It's basically another ghetto urban drama.

If I'm not supposed to like a character, that's fine. But they have to be interesting. Sasha isn't interesting. The teacher is a cliche pulled out of the Karate Kid, Akeelah, and Finding Forrester.

You repeatedly hit the audience over the head with your pro-life message, so much that you've alienated me. So I'm not supposed to like the mother, and I sure as hell don't find her interesting.

Now, I do think there's a good script in here somewhere. But first, you have to pick a main character. Give them a goal. This experimental indie shit isn't working for me.

Follow Sasha through every single scene. Make every scene relevant to her progression as a character because she stays pretty static from beginning to end. Stop trying to shock the audience or portray the realities of living in the ghetto. Tell a story.

Don't have the white dude as the only normal person (well, not really, as he fucked a twelve-year-old) in your story. I'm sorry to say this, but only American Beauty, and possibly Better Living Through Chemistry and Young Adult can get away with the extremely unlikable character gets redeemed in the end arc.

Also, I found your formatting kind of wacky. Why are the scene headings bolded? And why are there so many cuts? Unless you plan to direct this yourself, get rid of them. It feels like the story is really 90 pages, not 99.

And please, for the ever loving fuck of god, get rid of the -- mother thinks TWELVE YEAR OLD GIRL SEDUCED HER OLDER BROTHER. That's the stupidest shit ever and it pisses me off every time I read it.

I don't care if she's sad over her son. It makes me think she's an idiot. And you're either a) adding it here to make me feel sorry for Sasha, or b) trying to pull out more tears from the "grittiness" of reality. Stop. Scripts are meant to entertain. Once they pass the entertainment point, then they can moralize on the state of the world. You haven't entertained me yet.

And the ending? Where suddenly Cora is a good guy after ripping a child out of her daughter? Yeah, no. And then you have the wise old man who imparts wisdom for no particular reason? That's almost as bad as the pretentious child in (500) Days of Summer.

Finally, what was the theme of the script? What was the point? Every script should have a point. I'm not seeing yours.

(500) Days of Summer: Keep looking and you'll find your true love.

The Godfather: Do anything to keep your family together and avenge their deaths. Respect above all else.

Aliens: Listen to the redheaded chick cause she usually knows what she's talking about.

You don't really have a theme, therefore, I can't really justify the plot-less indie melodrama you've got going on here. Even Blue Valentine, a script I abhorred, had a theme. Study Toni Morrison, specifically The Bluest Eye, if you must use incest without a solid plot. Otherwise, it comes off as an insensitive portrayal of African Americans in the ghetto with their savior white dude who didn't really want to be a hebephile, but the girl forced him to do it. Right.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do with this script.

-- Cory


"In our world," said Eustace, "a star is a huge ball of flaming gas." "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is, but only what it is made of."

We don't know very much, but we know that something went wrong somewhere, somehow. So we can't believe that what you call the truth is true.
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rc1107
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Hey Kevin and Cory,

Sorry I haven't been able to reply again since yesterday.  Things got a little hectic around the house here, and now I'm off to work again.

I appreciate the time you both took to read the story and I'll get to your comments as soon as I can.

Kev, hope things are going good for you for the OWC, this week.  A couple more hours, I think.

Thanks guys again for your time and thoughts and I'll get back to you in a bit.

- mark


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leitskev
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Hey Mark

OWC about to be entered.

I'm gonna take a quick moment to discuss Cory's remarks. Regarding the inciting incident, I believe it is the first encounter in the teacher's apartment. All of their lives are changed by this eventually. The teacher at first becomes determined to take control of his classroom and his life. Sasha is more determined to accelerate her learning. Turrel, having seen his naked sister in the apartment, is set on killing the teacher.

It is slightly late for an inciting incident, but not as late as it seems because of the cut to's in the opening pages.

The end of act one would be the death of Turrel. Again, a little late for this transition, but a clear turning point.

I tried to avoid discussing some of the racial aspects to this, but the points Cory raised have validity. Handling the topic of race is always hard, though, and no matter how you do it, some one will say you are wrong. I think the best thing to do when it comes to that topic is to show as much diversity of character as possible. For example, of we're doing a story about white Irish drinkers(yes, I've seen that movie), it's ok to have the stereotypical characters, especially to the extent that the stereotype is true, as long as we try to have some different characters to show that not all white Irish are fighting drinkers.

Sasha wants to do her homework and learn, but is afraid of being taunted by other kids. That stuff happens everyday in every classroom, so it's effective. But in other ways she really takes on the negative stereotypes, and I'm not even sure how accurate those stereotypes are. Most of the black girls I have known are fairly conservative in a lot of ways. Maybe things have changed, but I don't see them talking the way Sasha and her friends do. Guys talk like that, for sure. Or for Shizzle!

Mark, I hope you consider some of the changes I suggested. You're not afraid to break taboos, that's good. Maybe break a few less at one time!
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thebloodfiend
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Quoted from leitskev
Regarding the inciting incident, I believe it is the first encounter in the teacher's apartment. All of their lives are changed by this eventually. The teacher at first becomes determined to take control of his classroom and his life. Sasha is more determined to accelerate her learning. Turrel, having seen his naked sister in the apartment, is set on killing the teacher.

It is slightly late for an inciting incident, but not as late as it seems because of the cut to's in the opening pages.


I suppose my main issue with this is that it's not clear cut. I'm not a fan of obviousness, but it just doesn't hit me the right way. I'd make it more defined.

There are varius moments throughout the script that felt like they could be inciting incidents, but they don't really push the story forward. At least, they don't feel that way to me.

If Sasha is indeed the main character, I think the inciting incident should affect her in some way or the other. Sure, it can inadvertantly affect the teacher or the brother or the mother, but it has to provoke her to change or do something. And she doesn't. She's the same static character all the way throughout. Even Juno changed, despite the complaints that she's too static.

So, here's my question to you Matt -- what does Sasha desire and how does she change to get it?

You could say that she wants to further her education, but that goal dissapears in the third act. In fact, for acts one and two, she's more determined to seduce the teacher. She doesn't have a solid character arc. The teacher does. I'd pick one or the other to focus on. And, I never thought I'd say this, but if you haven't seen either of the two Nicholl winners I mentioned above, I think you should watch them.

They've got the same set up as yours -- depressed/reclusive/downtrodden teacher with dead family helps black kid succeed in one way or the other. I'd look specifically at the beats in both of those and try to place them a bit closer to the mark. You don't have to be obvious, but you can focus in on the main theme -- whatever that is. Par down to the bone, eliminate the melodrama (I'd advise ditching the incest too, as well as the abortion, or re-writing them), and really trying to develop either one of your main characters.

The thing about having Tyrell drive the script with his attempt to kill the teacher? It didn't really resonate with me. Either he really cares about his sister and thinks she was molested or he's jealous. And the jealousy thing doesn't fly. It's old and cliche. Even Cider House Rules has black father/daughter incest. And I liked that script, despite that.

Also, someone else, I believe it was Kevin, said something about Cora's reaction to having preformed an abortion. She does seem too calm about that. It just feels like a really busy script. You've got too much going on. I like that you're willing to push boundaries, but somestimes, too much is too much. And I'm not a squeamish person. Everything just kind of piled on and on and on.

Good luck

-- Cory


"In our world," said Eustace, "a star is a huge ball of flaming gas." "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is, but only what it is made of."

We don't know very much, but we know that something went wrong somewhere, somehow. So we can't believe that what you call the truth is true.
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B.C.
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Hi Mark. I haven’t read any of the other comments yet.

As an admirer of the brave, dark shorts that I have read from you, I was looking forward to a feature.

In general, this was a real fast read for me. The first 30 pages seemed to fly by without a blink. Your action flows, and the premise was set up nicely. Being non-american, I’m obviously no authority on the dialect/slang of your characters, but I didn’t sense anything that felt out place.

That’s in general, allow me now to get a bit more picky.

I’m a bit of a lone wolf on things like this, but I didn’t like the technical aspects of your opening scene. Those ‘cuts’ just don’t work for me as an opener. I’d rather just have it in normal format. I don’t like things like that anywhere in a spec, so to do it on the first page really stands out as a no-no. I just think things like that should be left to the editor. Let them do the transitional jiggery pokery.

P.17 – 18. Ok, now here we go. As I said, I like your dark shorts, including the subject matter. However, there’s a time and a place. Considering the established tone of the piece, and the fact that this has been set up as a socially conscious drama, and considering the age of the girl – what happens here got a reaction from me. It’s probably not the reaction most people will have. We have a big hairy pube attack followed by seeing ‘wetness drips down her inner thigh’. My initial reaction was to laugh out loud about how innappropriate this was, and why you put in this level of detail. It’s easier to do this scene with a degree of subtlety, and I actually think it would have more impact.

I had a thought halfway through about Sazha. Why is she attracted to this man? I just can’t seem to fathom why she wants to sleep with him. So she has no father figure, she is intellectual compared to her peers, she feels sorry for him. But even with all the hormones of someone her age, I’m just having a problem grasping why she is so desperate to have him. Especially after Crandall has killed her brother…

P56 – “…she suddenly stops and looks at her crotch. A huge smile on her face.” This is followed by the phone call where she says that other thing. Again, I’m not sure how you expect to get away with this. More importantly, I don’t think it’s needed.

The incest part of the story – I was wondering if it was included to give us more of an understanding of Sazha’s behaviour, but I’m not entirely sure. A re-read may clarify this for me.  

Crandall’s suicide read really strange to me. How can we see the level of detail in the bathroom from Turrells bedroom window? That’s the only time in the entire script that I had to go back and read something to ‘get it’. (that’s actually a backhanded compliment – to reiterate: the script is really quick, Good work).

The anti-abortion angle was interesting, but as soon as we find out she is pregnant I knew that something bad was afoot…

Which leads us to the P83 when Cora decides to kick ass and drop the people’s elbow on her pregnant 13 year old daughter. Again, I’m not sure about the level of detail… as we then descend into the territory of underground Japanese hardcore-Gorno movies (that get banned in most of parts of the western world) I’m a fan, by the way. But tone-wise – do you need to go there in this story? Is it for shock value? Placenta art?  

There seems to be a conflict, Mark. On the one hand I think you may have a good social drama with interesting things going on, on the other hand we have some exploitation scenes which would be fine in a certain type of movie – but NOT a movie that has 13 year old children as their focal point.

I hope this makes sense.

I like your stuff Mark. I’m sure this script well get people fired up and talking. I look forward to the fall out!

Thanks for read.

EDIT -- I've just read the other posts. For the sake of balance. I'll say something that I may regret.

There's a alot of talk regarding -- inciting incidents/protags/antags/characters goals.

In my opinion (which may be mocked) I didn't see any problems here. Mark has correctly stated this would be in the realms of indie. Therefore, it's his perogative (some might say responsibility) not to follow such structured story 'rules'. To be slightly different.

I like movies where the character doesn't have a 'goal'. They do exist. I also like the occasional film where there isn't one main character who has to jump a series of walls to get from A to B.

The problems I have with the script are above, but not at one point did I start wondering about this kind of stuff. I didn't feel it was important to the story at hand.

Just my thoughts...

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B.C.  -  October 14th, 2011, 4:58pm
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thebloodfiend
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Quoted from B.C.


EDIT -- I've just read the other posts. For the sake of balance. I'll say something that I may regret.

There's a alot of talk regarding -- inciting incidents/protags/antags/characters goals.

In my opinion (which may be mocked) I didn't see any problems here. Mark has correctly stated this would be in the realms of indie. Therefore, it's his perogative (some might say responsibility) not to follow such structured story 'rules'. To be slightly different.

I like movies where the character doesn't have a 'goal'. They do exist. I also like the occasional film where there isn't one main character who has to jump a series of walls to get from A to B.

The problems I have with the script are above, but not at one point did I start wondering about this kind of stuff. I didn't feel it was important to the story at hand.

Just my thoughts...


I don't mock people who state their opinion in an honest, repectful way.

My point is that this is a very odd, often unorthodox way of structuring a story. Instead of actually having a goal (which, yes, even a lot indie movies give their characters) Matt's got a bunch of shocking torture porn, melodramatic events driving the script. It's like I'm reading a Tyler Perry/Jack Ketchum collaboration.

I'd like to see the movie defined by a character growing to acheive something, rather than bad shit happening, horrible shit happening, and even worse shit happening until it peeters out with a resolution. It works for super talented writers, read -- Toni Morrison, or stories that have bittersweet moments throughout, read -- Cider House Rules.

Honestly, I do read a lot of indie dramas. I love them to death. But even they have dynamic character who have arcs and goals and so on and so forth. This reminds me a bit of Blue Valentine, which, truthfully, I hated specifically because it revolved around melodrama, rather than an actual plot.

But I'm in the minority here, so I'll respectfully back out. I follow the rule of three. If one person says something, take it with a grain of salt. If two say something, think hard on it. If three say something, you've got a problem.

Once again, good luck Mark.

-- Cory


"In our world," said Eustace, "a star is a huge ball of flaming gas." "Even in your world, my son, that is not what a star is, but only what it is made of."

We don't know very much, but we know that something went wrong somewhere, somehow. So we can't believe that what you call the truth is true.

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thebloodfiend  -  October 14th, 2011, 9:56pm
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leitskev
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Hey, Basket.

I can respect that. Here's my thoughts on character goal.

The critical thing with a story is that there needs to be powerful engines driving the story at all times. A protagonist with strong goals, usually a likable protag who is actively pursuing those goals, is a common way of establishing a story engine. But it's not the only way. If something else is driving the story, then it's perfectly fine of the protag has no goals and isn't even likable. It's just harder to do it that way.

Think of a film as a book, and the idea is to always give the reader a strong reason to turn the page. If this is a film in the theater, make the audience stay in their seats. If it's TV, make sure they don't change the channel. That's what powerful engines do.

It's hard to do that if we don't like the characters. But not impossible. Think Phil in Groundhog day. And powerful goals keep us 'turning the page' because we want to see character achieve those goals. That's why their should always be stakes in play.

As far as inciting incidents, I actually don't really care either. I include it in the review because professionals that might look at his script might be interested in structure. But I don't care where the incident comes, or whether there is one, as long as something is driving the story.

The biggest problem I had here was overkill, and disbelief brought on by that overkill. It was too, too much. And it really isn't all needed. One or two really shocking things should be enough. They lose their power if there is too much. I think if Mark toned this down along the line suggested, this would work much better.

The say writing is rewriting. So Mark can absorb all the things that didn't work for people and address in the next draft. If he prefers. That system works pretty well.
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B.C.
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Yeah, it's all cool. I'm not saying don't have these things. I love movies like that. I love generic, cliched stories as much as the occasional film that has a bunch of random stuff happening for ludicrous reasons. (which may be intended, or even at the core -- due to terrible writing!)

There's room for both. I just wanted to say that I didn't really spoil the read and I didnt really think about it.
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rc1107
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Hey, Kev, Bloodfiend and BasketCase.

Sorry for not being around as much as I wanted to yesterday.  I'm kind of in the same boat today as I was yesterday, but I'll try and address some of the comments before I go to work.  I'm sorry I won't be able to tackle them all, but I'll have a few days off early next week and I'll be able to address some more things.

:-)  So, I guess not everybody's a big fan of my little tribute to the Grand Guignol.  I totally understand if someone didn't like this because of how graphic it was and how I really really pushed the envelope.  I do feel I have to defend myself (somewhat) against some of the comments or accusations, but in no way am I getting smart-aleccy or don't respect anybody's opinion about the story.  I'm just going to try and explain where I'm coming from.

As far as the way that Sazha's classmates talk...  that is just how it is nowadays.  I don't like it either and I don't like hearing it on the bus, especially coming from people so young.  Maybe, hopefully, it's not like that in all neighborhoods, but that's how it is here and this area is what I'm trying to portray in the story.  I'm not going to copy and paste dialogue from other teenage films because that's how everybody expects teenagers to talk.  I'm going to make them talk like I hear.  Of course, I'm not saying all teenagers talk like this, and I'm not saying that's how all black teenagers talk, but that's what I heard that's really popped out at me.

And trust me, Kevin, I admit I pushed this one really far.  This was just how the story came out to me.  I set out to write a tragedy, and the bad things just kept piling up.  I'm not going to say it's how real life is, but in my life, all the bad things seem to just pile up at once and at the end, when the wave finally breaks, I'm left just trying to push on with life and I try to get through it with a smile.  Eventually, I even find myself happy and don't think about how hard those times were until much, much later.  And that's what this story was ultimately about.

I'm sorry that's all I have time to write for now, but I should be able to get to your comments tomorrow, Cory (bloodfiend) and BC.

Once again, I apologize for not being able to comment all at once.  And thank you again for all taking the time to check this one out.

I'll talk to you guys later.

- Mark


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rc1107
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Hey Cory.

I think I got a pretty thick skin, so you don't have to worry about being blunt around me.  There was only one thing said where I think I'll have to stick up for myself anyway, but with the rest I do understand where you're coming from.

One thing I do have to say, though, is that I'm really not up to speed on movies lately.  Yes, I used to watch a ton of movies when I was a teenager and in my early 20's, but I haven't seen much of any movies lately, unless it's those stupid 'couple comedies' that the girlfriend has been dragging me to.  So, unfortunately, almost all of the movie references you made were lost on me.  I might have seen one of them, I think, but some of the others I've never even heard of.

I know, I know.  It's bad form for a writer not to be up to speed on his craft, but something tells me I'll survive.

All right.  Down to the nitty gritty.


Quoted from bloodfiend
Maybe there's some "deep" message about human nature hidden behind it.


I like to think there is.  In fact, I think the story says a lot about human nature.  (Or at least the way that I view human nature.)  With this story, I intended to focus on the good and the bad in us all.  Every character in the story has good and bad in them that I tried to bring to light.  Even the minor ones.  That's what I wanted to portray, that side of humanity.  No matter what, we're going to do something wrong.  I'm hoping that people take a moment to stop before they go through any immediate reactions to something.

Maybe it is thin for some to see, but I know I see it in spades.


Quoted from bloodfiend
I'm wondering if all scripts about black people have to have them fucking their relatives


No.  Absolutely not.  I have white people do it, too.  :-)


Quoted from bloodfiend
You're trying too hard to be Spike Lee.


Not even close.  Never even seen any of his movies.  Only thing I know about Spike Lee is what I've seen of him at Knick games.  I'm not saying I wouldn't be a fan of his stuff, but one thing I can promise is I don't try to be like anybody.  Yeah, maybe I wrote some of this in the style of Grand Guignol, but I certainly don't set out to be like somebody.


Quoted from bloodfiend
What's your inciting incident? Is it Sasha trying to seduce the teacher or the teacher killing her brother? And what do these have to do with pushing the story forward?


I think this just might come down a difference of opinion for everybody.  To me, I think those incidents are exactly what pushes the story.  Is it more exciting than humans fighting an alien invasion?  No.  Is it more exciting than someone in a shopping mall defending themselves against mutant zombies?  No. Is it more exciting than a teenage mortal falling in love with a heartthrob vampire?  Well, probably, yeah.  But the point is, the characters still have to react to the situations. In fact, the whole story doesn't even revolve around one inciting incident.  The incidents keep escalating and escalating.  

Some have said now about how quick and easy this reads.  I was very surprised to hear that, for a drama.  Yes, sparse writing may have something to do with that, but I'm sure the pace that the incidents are set up may contribute, too.


Quoted from bloodfiend
Don't have the white dude as the only normal person


Whoa.  I'm not sure where you got that idea in the story.  The man's severely depressed.  He can't even make his own decisions for himself.  The whole story, people are telling him what to do, adults and children.  And in the end, he gets his just desserts, I feel.  Maybe I wrote him as a character to feel sorry for, but in no way do I portray him as someone to empathize with.


Quoted from bloodfiend
Also, I found your formatting kind of wacky. Why are the scene headings bolded? And why are there so many cuts?


The bolded scene headings are just a personal preference.  I really like the way it highlights scene separation.  The cuts were an experiment for myself, and only on the first page.  I agree with how weird they are.  I was just trying something.  I plan of finding another way of opening this.


Quoted from bloodfiend
And the ending? Where suddenly Cora is a good guy after ripping a child out of her daughter?


Hmm.  I'm a little curious as to how you came to that conclusion.  Yes, Sazha's going to try her best to forget, (she's unfortunately absorbing some of Crandall's traits in just having to move on), but in no way is Cora redeemed.  She even has to tell Sazha to lie to keep herself out of trouble.


Quoted from bloodfiend
And then you have the wise old man who imparts wisdom for no particular reason?


I'm sorry to say, I'm lost there, too.  What wisdom does he impart?  He only helps her out cause she seems to be in a bad situation.  In no way (at least not purposely) did I have him impart wisdom.

All right.  Sorry the story seemed to have angered you.  There is another issue I want to get to that you bring up, Basket Case brought it up, also.  About the incest.  I'll get to that in my next reply.

Thank you very much again for sharing your thoughts, Cory, and welcome to the boards!  Do you have anything posted here on SS yet?

I'll be seeing you around.

- Mark


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Electric Dreamer
Posted: October 25th, 2011, 10:53am Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark,

Since the OWC double barrel dust bowl is settling, thought I'd crack this open.
Apologies for the delay, but you know I've had my hand in many jars as of late.

I'll take notes as I read, then sum up a bit after each section.

P. 4  Patton's line here reads odd. You need to stick it through and
        work through it.
The double through tripped up my read.

P. 9  I'm just as perplexed as Crandall. Why would he do that?
       No teacher in their right mind would consent to such an arrangement.
       I've not gotten any indication that Crandall is off his nut either.
       Save for being a bit of a wimp with the taunting kids in class.

Stopping at page 20 today, pretty breezy read.
That's nothing new from you. Heh. Bit more unfilmables from you than usual.
Nothing wrong with that, just noting it's a bit of a departure for you.

Overall, I'm intrigued to continue.
However, I have a low tolerance for stories that hide events for too long.
Whatever is in the past of these characters better start getting doled out soon.

Sazha's advances didn't shock me, because you set it up.
Which turns part of the shock into genuine attraction for the girl.
She's wounded and sees something even worse off than her. I get that.

Let's see where we go from here.

Regards,
E.D.


LATEST NEWS

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rc1107
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Hey E.D.


Quoted from Electric Dreamer
I've had my hand in many jars as of late.


Yeah, right.  You're probably one of the laziest people on the boards that I've come across.  

Thanks for taking the plunge into this one, Brett.  Hope you enjoy the ride.


Re: Pg. 4  -  The 'through' and 'through'.  -  I did catch that before in my editing, it even made me stop.  I'm at a loss as to why I didn't clean that part up when I first came across it.

Re: Pg. 9  -  Crandall agreeing to Sazha's terms.  -  I'll let you get a little more insight into Crandall's character, first, before I give you my opinion on that situation.


Quoted from Electric Dreamer
Heh. Bit more unfilmables from you than usual.  Nothing wrong with that, just noting it's a bit of a departure for you.


  I'm guessing you're talking about the pubic attack, right?  If I were the director, I would be sure to show Sazha (namely, the 18 year-old actress playing Sazha) come up behind Crandall and rub her crotch against his elbow, but I do agree that the wetness dripping down her thigh would probably be unfilmable.  The wetness was just an example of something that I wrote for the short story making it into the screenplay, just to put a powerful image in people's heads.

Just out of curiosity, though, were there any other unfilmables you happen to remember offhand?  I thought I had edited them all out.  (And trust me, unfilmables were rampant in the beginning, so it doesn't surprise me that a couple slipped by.

Thanks, E.D., for taking a look.  I hope you enjoy the rest of it!


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Electric Dreamer
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Quoted from rc1107
Hey E.D.

Re: Pg. 9  -  Crandall agreeing to Sazha's terms.  -  I'll let you get a little more insight into Crandall's character, first, before I give you my opinion on that situation.


I realized that while I was reading, but here's the thing.
I let it go, because I know you, not because I accepted things as they were.
If I didn't know who the writer was, I probably would've dropped the script.
Seemingly arbitrary behavior with a sensitive subject matter never washes.

IMO, the script needs something to anchor the audience to Crandall's decision.
It could be just a hint of things to come, but the pages need that "tease".
Whatever about Crandall that goes along with this, "bread crumb" it right there.
Because if you don't, folks aren't going to come along for the journey, IMO.


Quoted from rc1107

Just out of curiosity, though, were there any other unfilmables you happen to remember offhand?  I thought I had edited them all out.  (And trust me, unfilmables were rampant in the beginning, so it doesn't surprise me that a couple slipped by.

Thanks, E.D., for taking a look.  I hope you enjoy the rest of it!


Oh, there was one about Taye Diggs that I thought was cute.
And this on page six stuck out...
The whole class breaks into hysterics. Except Sazha. She
lowers her head and frowns, embarrassed for him.


The embarrassed for him part, was a little unlike you.
Not complaining here, just noting a style departure.

E.D.



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Electric Dreamer
Posted: October 26th, 2011, 10:56am Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark,

Going to pick up from page 20 today.
My first thought...
I'm hoping to get some quick insight into Crandall's decision making.

P. 20 Here's another unfilmable, since you asked about them
        Sazha laughs. The ice between them breaks a little.
        I don't mind, they read fine, just not your usual fare is all.

P. 23  Didn't care for the drawn out explanation of the quote.
         Crandall "tramples" it with his first words, that part's fine.
         But Sazha expounding even more rang false to me.
         Too much immediate insight from her into Crandall kills the effect, IMO.

P. 27  There's a word or two missing in Clyde's line here...
         I have to concentrate on what needs changed in me and my attitudes.

P. 28  I'm confused here, I thought it was against the rules to know folks at AA.
         It seems Clyde is a colleague at Crandall's school?

Stopping at page 40 today.
I like the progression in Crandall, though it could be a little more subtle.
Then the reveal with Turrell, you took it a different way.
And if you don't divulge the details of said incident later, I'll be cross with you.

Looking forward to picking this up tomorrow.

Regards,
E.D.


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rc1107
Posted: October 26th, 2011, 2:35pm Report to Moderator
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Oh yeah.  I forgot I had one about Taye Diggs.  I did put that one in there knowing that it wouldn't translate well to film.  With all the heavy-handed things going on, I felt a little comic relief wouldn't be bad for the reader.  :-)

All the other ones you pointed out, though, I didn't even think of them as unfilmables as I was reading over them.  They just felt so natural while I was writing them as prose, they snuck in on me.

Ah, the explanation of the quote.  I'll have to go back over that again.  When I read over it with my tired eyes, I thought it might have been a little melodramatic and on the nose, but decided to see how it would play out.  I'll revisit that.

As for AA, it's bad form to know your sponsor personally, but there's no hard rules against it.  And there's no rules (that at least I know of), that people who know each other can't attend the same meeting.  At least, that's how it works around here.  Although, I'm not 100% on anything.  I've attended meetings before (forced and not forced), but I've never considered myself a member.

Anyway, thanks again for your time, Brett.

I'll talk to you later.

- Mark


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Electric Dreamer
Posted: October 28th, 2011, 3:05pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from rc1107

As for AA, it's bad form to know your sponsor personally, but there's no hard rules against it.  And there's no rules (that at least I know of), that people who know each other can't attend the same meeting.  At least, that's how it works around here.  Although, I'm not 100% on anything.  I've attended meetings before (forced and not forced), but I've never considered myself a member.

Anyway, thanks again for your time, Brett.

I'll talk to you later.

- Mark


I've never been either, but it stuck out to me for one reason:

Just had watched the new episode of "Homeland" and it came up on there.
In that scenario, one character was using that point to lure another into talking.
As if, they would be "bad together" and somehow bond because of it.

Had I not just seen that, I wouldn't have probably gone there.
So, I'd pretty much ignore me then on that one!

Regards,
E.D.




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Electric Dreamer  -  October 28th, 2011, 3:59pm
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Electric Dreamer
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Hey Mark,

I'll climb back into "Thistles" today.
It will help me take my mind off the big elephant event tomorrow!

I'm picking up from page 40 this afternoon.

P. 41  For some reason I saw intercuts in my head here.
         The funersal service intercut with Crandall as he cleans.
         Screw the timeline, those visuals really impacted me for some reason.

P. 49  The margins appear to be off for these two lines of dialogue
        
          CHESTER
          All right. I'll walk you out to your car, then.
          CRANDALL
          Mr. Clyde send you here to make sure I didn't
          take anything from the school?


P. 51  General note: I enjoy how Cora holds onto her hate, literally even.

P. 52  This line would be great, with one change, IMO:
         CORA
         My baby just died! Ain’t no child should
         have to die.

         Lose the on the nose first sentence.
         Drawing direct attention to her hate here, robs the scene of its power.

P. 56  A sprinkling of pleases from Sazha here would work better.
         "Don't deny...." reads more like an order, and I don't think you mean that.

Stopping on page 61 today.
I'm not done processing the events that took place.
I have questions, but good questions, not a matter of clarity or logic.
I know why everyone hates themselves in this script, but Sazha.
Because to me, her connection with Crandall didn't come from a "good place".

I'm looking forward to finding out what Sazha's "picket sign" of hate is.

Hope this helps. To be continued.

Regards,
E.D.


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rc1107
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Hey E.D.

Hope you're having fun at the event!

Ah, pages 40-60.  These scenes I wrote were heavily inspired by a few certain songs I had in my head while writing them.  That's why there's a lot of images and not too much dialogue.  I hope it doesn't read too much like a music video.  (It's also the main part where I'm afraid I might have gotten a little too artsy-fartsy.)

I'm not too sure what you mean about the dialogue lines on pg. 49.  I did only use Microsoft Word Processor writing this, but they seem to keep in synch in the pdf version.  Do you mean they go a little too far to the right marginally?  I have been guilty of that a lot, lately.  Just my way of avoiding some orphans.


Quoted from E.D.
pg. 56 - "Don't deny...." reads more like an order, and I don't think you mean that.


:-)  Actually, I did mean for it to sound like an order.  She knows Crandall can be forced into things at this point.


Quoted from E.D.
I know why everyone hates themselves in this script, but Sazha.
I'm looking forward to finding out what Sazha's "picket sign" of hate is.


It's right around the corner.  :-)

Talk to you later!


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Electric Dreamer
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Quoted from rc1107
Hey E.D.

Hope you're having fun at the event!


It was several kinds of awesome.
I'll post on the Sherwood Oaks thread about it later.

Quoted from rc1107

Ah, pages 40-60.  These scenes I wrote were heavily inspired by a few certain songs I had in my head while writing them.  That's why there's a lot of images and not too much dialogue.  I hope it doesn't read too much like a music video.  (It's also the main part where I'm afraid I might have gotten a little too artsy-fartsy.)

I don't recall getting that impression while reading the pages.

Quoted from rc1107

I'm not too sure what you mean about the dialogue lines on pg. 49.  I did only use Microsoft Word Processor writing this, but they seem to keep in synch in the pdf version.  Do you mean they go a little too far to the right marginally?  I have been guilty of that a lot, lately.  Just my way of avoiding some orphans.

That must be it, the right margin was too long and stopped my read.
Something to consider reviewing.

Quoted from rc1107

  Actually, I did mean for it to sound like an order.  She knows Crandall can be forced into things at this point.

It's right around the corner.  

Talk to you later!

Ok, but in that context it robs the scene of emotional power for me.
We know Sazha is needy for...a whole lot of things.
But throwing the dominance out there like that, didn't come across for me.
Perhaps if it was displayed earlier with friends, I can digest it better.
As a surprise it takes away from the focus on the characters in a key scene.
Unless you're going for pure shock there, I don't see the benefits, at this time.

But that can change.

Regards,
E.D.



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Electric Dreamer
Posted: October 31st, 2011, 11:23am Report to Moderator
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Okay, time to crack this open again.

Picking up from page 60 this morning.

P. 71  Doubling the price of the prenatal vitamins? Wow. Why so steep?

I'm stopping at page 80 today.
The read was smooth, but the pages didn't do much for me.

The two people that starkly contrast Sazha are gone.
Without them, I felt the story comparatively stagnated.
Also read odd that Sazha has completely alienated all her friends.

Does Sazha ever ask Cora why she does all the protesting at the clinic?
I think it would come up between mother and daughter in some form.

Looking forward to wrapping this up tomorrow.

Regards,
E.D.


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Electric Dreamer
Posted: November 1st, 2011, 10:54am Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark,

Gonna put a bow on this bad boy today.
Apologies for breaking it up into so many chunks.
It's the best way I can manage my time between SS and industry endeavors.

Picking up from page 80 this morning.

P. 85  Very untimely typo during an intense scene.
         The blody flops out into the tub

P. 86  I read these lines and thought of the plumeria box.
         She finds the piece with the nose and mouth.
         She drops her head a moment, then wraps it in the foil.

         Dunno why, just did.

P. 87  Love this bit of business.
         Cora just sits there, staring at the T.V. that’s turned off.
         I've done that, when I know I did something bad.

P. 96  Typo in the middle of your ending there.
         Smithers peaks in,e leaves her alone to her good byes.

Thistles lives in a very uncomfortable area.
After what Sazha went through, I do not pity her, nor do I celebrate her.
It's a more mature choice than simply making her a child to be pitied.
She is a walking contradiction, much like her mother.
And that's a more shocking choice to me, than the events depicted.
But Sazha can grow, where Cora seems immovable.

I kept seeing Sazha near the end protesting her own baby at a clinic.
Using her special sign, charging a couple. She wheels the man around, it's Crandall.
She wakes from her nightmare. And feels... nothing.
Part of me saw Sazha take the sign from Cora and finish the job.
Act out as she sees her mother, there's a turn no one would suspect.

Was there outright clues to Turrell's indiscretion? I don't recall any.
There were hints, for sure. Unspoken behaviors are tricky, but rewarding on the page.

This one feels incomplete, but I'd have to meditate on why, with you.
But I suspect I'm seeing those strong images for a reason while reading.

Provocative pages, brain's turning. Kudos.

Regards,
E.D.




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rc1107
Posted: November 3rd, 2011, 12:45am Report to Moderator
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Hmm.  I thought I replied to you this morning when I got up, Brett.  I guess I never posted it.

Anyhow,


Quoted from E.D.
P. 71  Doubling the price of the prenatal vitamins? Wow. Why so steep?


I went back to make sure there wasn't a typo that time or anything.  (Well, this morning I did, anyway.)  I believe it only raises four dollars, from 16.95 to 20.95.


Quoted from E.D.
The two people that starkly contrast Sazha are gone.


With this script, I challenged myself in a couple different ways just to see what I could do and what I couldn't do.

One of those challenges was to have two main characters and to focus on both of them equally, without anybody feeling it's more about one person than the other.  In my head, I think I accomplished it, but I don't know as to what others think.

In the first half, the story's focused on Crandall a little more, but Sazha's definitely around and involved.  Then in the second half, it tells the story of the rest of what happens to Sazha, and I was hoping to portray that Crandall had made such a strong impact on Sazha, that she's picking up his characteristics.  (Such as wanting to be alone, (that's why I didn't show her hanging around her friends in this half).)  

In fact, Sazha picks up the characteristics of the different people she's around.  She doesn't talk as ghetto as her friends and her mom, but the slang's still there in her voice when she's around them.  Then, around Crandall and her psychologist, she talks not perfect english, but a lot better than the english that is around her at home and play.  Then, she even accomodates to Smithers' almost country politeness twang.  (That's a lot harder to hear or see on paper, but the main clue is how Sazha, like Smithers, starts using the term 'I appreciate it' more.  (Of course, Smithers'll actually annunciate it as I 'preciate it, but I refuse to write my dialogue like that.  Just makes it a harder read, and a little more stale and on the nose.)

Another thing I wanted to do with this story, was show good and bad in all my characters.  Crandall of course was good-hearted and kind, but he was also weak and had his crutches.  Sazha was smart and seemingly normal, but we also saw her unhealthy desires, and sometimes just downright creepiness, (with the placenta print and mementos of her baby).  She was normal, but something wasn't right about her, is how I wanted her to come off.

With Cora, she was someone I wanted to go from one extreme to another, even in her beliefs.  At first, she's strong and takes care of her family, (we see this in her working for her family and cooking for them), then I wanted her to experience a complete 360.  She stopped cooking, she was always frazzled or quiet.  

Then I did with her what I don't think quite a lot of people understand, and I think is somewhat of a phenomenon that no one understands in real life.  She's so against violence that she starts embracing it.  The hate against violence becomes so bad that the whole idea consumes her and she sees it everywhere and can't stop it, so she uses it in sick ways to prove her point.

The whole slew of abortion clinic bombings I remembered hearing about in the 90's are what heavily influenced her character for me.  People who are so extremely pro-life, that they take life because they're so blinded by their beliefs.  They don't see they're performing what they preach against.

Even Turrell, at first, I show good.  I show that he cares for his sister and doesn't want her molested by an older man.  Then, later on, we see he may have acted out more out of jealousy than protection.

Even Derrick Clyde, the principal, shows good and bad.  He proves that he's there for Crandall, but then, instead of fighting against the school board, uses Crandall's weaknesses and inability to make decisions himself, to force Crandall into putting in a voluntary resignation.

Anyway, those are just a few of the things I wanted to challenge myself with while working on the story.


...To be continued in a couple minutes.


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rc1107
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All right.  Sorry about that.  Wanted to grab something to eat real quick and wanted to post that before I somehow lost it again.

Part Two:



Quoted from E.D.
P. 85  Very untimely typo during an intense scene.
         The blody flops out into the tub
P. 96  Typo in the middle of your ending there.
         Smithers peaks in,e leaves her alone to her good byes


God I hate typos in my shit!  And this one had a lot of them.  I don't know what I was thinking.

But, and I know this is going to sound really bad to say, especially for a father, but I SWEAR TO GOD THAT THE PAGE 96 TYPO IS ALL MY SON'S FAULT AND I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR THAT ONE!

Yes, my son Austin has become very good at scaling things recently, and he had to've climbed up onto my desk and did some editing of his own.  (I did catch him a few times.  That one must've got by me.) That's the only way I can see that much of a sentence deleted and an extranneous comma just thrown in.  I checked the Microsoft Word Processor draft and the whole sentence was there, so he must've did it after I transferred it to Word and before I pdf.'ed it.  Right before I .pdf'ed it, because that was at the end.

(Maybe if I were still drinking heavy like back in the day, I'd admit it was probably my fault, but this one's all on Austin.)


Quoted from E.D.
It's a more mature choice than simply making her a child to be pitied.
She is a walking contradiction...  And that's a more shocking choice to me...  But Sazha can grow


I was hoping to leave people with a positive image of Sazha, that everything was going to be okay for her.  That she would make it okay for herself.  She'd get through this.  I don't know if I accomplished that in those few short scenes at the end, but I also didn't want to draw this out any longer than it needed to be, either.

Just wanted to get in, tell what happened to these people, and get out.  I wonder if that's why it felt so incomplete to you.


Quoted from E.D.
Was there outright clues to Turrell's indiscretion? I don't recall any.


This was a dilemma for me throughout the whole story while writing it, if Crandall should be the only father of the baby, or add Turrell into the mix.

I think adding Turrell into the mix brings a different couple layers to the story that I liked.  It definitely made Sazha's character more complex and also might explain just why she's after Crandall so bad.  She wants to feel what it's like to be the aggressor, and realizes how submissive Crandall can be.  But I also wanted it to be love for her, rather than just a crush.  I wanted to show her true feelings.

I will say that at the birth of the short story and the outline, I had always planned for Turrell to be molesting his sister.  But I wasn't sure.  So instead, I just wrote the story straight out without that nasty little twist involved, and it just felt incomplete.  (And don't forget, I wrote this way way before 'A Few Will Find This Difficult' was even conceived, so I wasn't worried about the too much incest theme.)

Then, especially after 'Difficult', I took it out again.  But ultimately, I decided to keep it in because of all the layers it added to Sazha's character.

Your thoughts on that aspect of it?


Well, thank you again very much, Mr. Martin, for taking a look at this one for me, and don't worry about having to break it up over a couple days to make time, I totally understand where you're coming from there.

Usually, I like reading a script all in one sitting and absorbing it all at once, but it's just getting so impossible with my schedule lately, breaking stories up is the only way I'll ever get any reading done.

You take it easy, too.  Don't take too much all at once.  Relax and enjoy, also.  :-)

I'll talk to you later, Brett.

- Mark


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Electric Dreamer
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Quoted from rc1107

One of those challenges was to have two main characters and to focus on both of them equally, without anybody feeling it's more about one person than the other.  In my head, I think I accomplished it, but I don't know as to what others think.

Hey Mark,

Honestly, I never thought for a second this was a shared lead protag story.
It's all about Sazha and how others interact with her is how they're defined.
That's pretty much a classic single protag dynamic you've created, IMO.
We start with her and Crandall comes in later.
Almost everything Crandall does in the script is a reaction to Sazha.
So, in my mind, that makes her the sole protag of this story.

Quoted from rc1107

I was hoping to portray that Crandall had made such a strong impact on Sazha, that she's picking up his characteristics.  (Such as wanting to be alone, (that's why I didn't show her hanging around her friends in this half).)

I didn't pick up on this, but it sounds good.
However, consider this about reuniting Sazha with her friends later.
If she behaves differently with them, the audience will pick up on it.
Even her friends may resent the changes, creating tension.
It's a nice opportunity to get something out there you want the reader to embrace.

Quoted from rc1107

Sazha was smart and seemingly normal, but we also saw her unhealthy desires, and sometimes just downright creepiness, (with the placenta print and mementos of her baby).  She was normal, but something wasn't right about her, is how I wanted her to come off.

Then I did with her what I don't think quite a lot of people understand, and I think is somewhat of a phenomenon that no one understands in real life.  She's so against violence that she starts embracing it.  The hate against violence becomes so bad that the whole idea consumes her and she sees it everywhere and can't stop it, so she uses it in sick ways to prove her point.

I really like the idea of embracing hatred as an overall theme.
And I think you achieve that to near perfection with Cora. It's very striking.
It's a strong statement about how the character feels about themselves.

I do feel you can run Crandall and Sazha through that filter and see some changes.
Off the top of my head along that thought, why is Clyde the AA guy?
How does your script benefit from him being in that position?
What if...humor me here...Smithers was the AA buddy?
Then, when Crandall falls off the wagon, he goes into a liquor store. Bam!
There's his AA pal. And they are both embracing something they hate.
And yet, Crandall would still go there, every time as he descends. Punishing himself.
That, and I love the idea of an AA member running a liquor shop.
Personally, I see more benefits to Smithers being the AA buddy.
And this idea would hard wire Smithers into the theme as well. Just a thought.

In summation, I think you can run your script through that "theme filter".
And I wouldn't be surprised if you start to see it a little differently.
This also ties into that "other script" we've been in talks about.

Quoted from rc1107

Even Turrell, at first, I show good.  I show that he cares for his sister and doesn't want her molested by an older man.  Then, later on, we see he may have acted out more out of jealousy than protection.
.

I'm down with that progression, for sure.
But I felt like Sazha was robbed of a chunk of her power by blaming Turrell.
It felt cheap to blame the dead as I was reading. Sazha felt diminished somehow.
If she defended her love on her own merit, she gets stronger.
We, the reader, are with her in that suggested conundrum.
We know what Sazha knows, bringing Turrell into it clutters that dynamic.
I see that scene as Sazha's final stand to break away from the hatred cycle.
And it loses all that steam when the question of Turrell is addressed.
I dig all the veiled suggestion, but to blame Turrell deflated/distracted the scene.
Sazha's attempt to ascend into a cycle of non-hate would be dramatic.
She starts out in that scene with silent virtue, never revealing Crandall.
It would make Sazha's defeat in the moment all the more powerful, IMO.
The higher they try to climb, the bigger the fall and more enthralling to experience.

Hope this helps.

Regards,
E.D.


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Electric Dreamer
Posted: November 3rd, 2011, 10:16am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from rc1107

I was hoping to leave people with a positive image of Sazha, that everything was going to be okay for her.  That she would make it okay for herself.  She'd get through this.  I don't know if I accomplished that in those few short scenes at the end, but I also didn't want to draw this out any longer than it needed to be, either.

Just wanted to get in, tell what happened to these people, and get out.  I wonder if that's why it felt so incomplete to you.

I got the impression Sazha would persevere, for sure.
I like that she embraced Crandall's lesson over the hatred.
And that it was a labored process, it should be hard to change.

Quoted from rc1107

I think adding Turrell into the mix brings a different couple layers to the story that I liked.  It definitely made Sazha's character more complex and also might explain just why she's after Crandall so bad.  She wants to feel what it's like to be the aggressor, and realizes how submissive Crandall can be.  But I also wanted it to be love for her, rather than just a crush.  I wanted to show her true feelings.

I agree with the veiled suggestion and Turrell's behavior works for that.
It's Sazha's admission of it that I feel hamstrings your theme.
The last thing I want to feel is Sazha being a victim while she's fighting the hate.
For me, it muddied her emotional journey in the script.

Quoted from rc1107

I will say that at the birth of the short story and the outline, I had always planned for Turrell to be molesting his sister.  But I wasn't sure.  So instead, I just wrote the story straight out without that nasty little twist involved, and it just felt incomplete.  (And don't forget, I wrote this way way before 'A Few Will Find This Difficult' was even conceive

I'm curious as to how you see the final conflict with Cora playing differently.
Imagine how that scene plays without Turrell being dragged into it.
I'd really like to see how you get to the where you are without that admission.
If Sazha is trying to not embrace hate, she wouldn't mention Turrell at all.
Think about it, marinate it in your brainpan, see how it grows.

Regards,
E.D.


LATEST NEWS

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greg
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Hey Mark,

Haven't done a lot of reading around these parts lately, but thought I'd check out your feature here.  My thoughts: Wow.  

First let me commend you on having the balls to write this.  I know you had a short about incest, but a feature is something else.  Parts of this script genuinely made me feel uncomfortable which is really more of a compliment to your writing style and ability to convey what's going on in a scene.  I've read a lot of really twisted scripts on here but rarely do they come in this form that's both elegant and dark and disturbing at the same time.  

There's a lot of conflict in here, and it seems each scenario ups the tension and up until the end I felt you did a good job of asking hard questions with even harder answers.  Where this lacks, I think, is the background of Sazha's family.  There's barely anything put into them, or at least not enough for me to buy into their actions.  The revelation of Turrell raping his sister was out of left field and it just seemed like adding conflict for the sake of it.  It was one of the few issues I didn't buy.  The other was Cora's actions.  The thing is - what kind of person jams a splintered sign into her pregnant 13 year old daughter's hoo hoo?  And then makes her "deliver" the corpse herself and throw it out?  This is another one of those questions I feel wasn't properly answered.  Up until this point we know Cora is, well, a little vocal and she's upset about Turrell, but I didn't feel her actions made a lot of sense.  And then there really wasn't anything resolved between her and Sazha.  I don't know what I was hoping for, but I wanted some more closure other than what happened.

If the incest angle is going to stay then I'd include some more drama between Sazha and Turrell.  Turrell's part was so brief that it was hard to detect any sort of history or conflict between the two.  

I liked Crandall.  I was disappointed that he was gone so early, but that's more of a positive testament to how you developed him.  You really created a big conflict with what he gets himself into and I bought it.  So nice job on handling what was otherwise a really tough load.  

Dialogue was good, the story was easy to get through, and again, I liked for the most part the conflict that you stacked on.  You didn't take it easy and created some really hard situations.  The scenes of Sazha and Crandall and the "birth" would not be allowed on film in such graphic detail, but watered down you'd get away with it.  But maybe leave that decision to the producer.  

Overall you really created a mood with this one.  I compliment you for being so bold as this is not an easy story.  There were a few parts I couldn't really buy, but otherwise this was an engaging story.

Nice job!

Greg


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Electric Dreamer
Posted: January 18th, 2012, 3:12pm Report to Moderator
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I haven't heard a peep out of Mark in six weeks.
Has he been on anyone's radar lately? A tad concerned. :/

E.D.


LATEST NEWS

CineVita Films
is producing a short based on my new feature!

A list of my scripts can be found here.
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rc1107
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Hey, Greg.

Thanks for taking a read.  I'm sorry it's taken me so long to get back to you.  It's been awhile since I've been to the site, (actually, I've barely been online even at all the past month or so), but i'm excited to get back and hopefully back into a regular writing routine.  (The brainstorming has been fantastic, though.)

Anyway, thanks for all the compliments.  I'm glad to hear it made you uncomfortable.  I think.  You know what I mean.  I like to read or watch stories that hit a visceral note with me, so I find myself writing like that a lot of the time.

I definately understand what you said about the incest coming out of nowhere.  When I first brainstormed the story, that storyline was there from the beginning.  But when I sat down and actually started writing the pages, I decided to take it out and wrote Sazha and Turrell just like a regular brother and sister.  When I was almost done with the pages, I threw it back in there because, after much deliberation, I thought it just added more layers to the Davids' as a family.  Unfortunately, because I decided to just 'throw' it back in, I can see where that part of the story was underdeveloped, and why it seems to come out of right field.  (Or left field.  I don't know what field, baseball's boring anyway.)

I do plan on making more changes to the script, and right now, having the incest angle is still up in the air.  I still don't know if I want to keep it in or not.  I will be doing some deep thinking about it, though, the next time I tackle the script again.

As for Cora jamming the splintered sign up Sazha... well, this is hard to explain.  I do have to develop her a little more in the beginning and middle, I think, to show that she is a woman losing her mind and slowly going off the deep end.  I don't think I did that job as well as I could have because I was too focused on Crandall.

But, I don't want to lose anything with Crandall, either.  In fact, I kind of want to do something that even redeems him a little in the end, but still doesn't change his fate.  I don't know, I guess I still have a lot of playing around to do with this one.


Quoted from greg
The scenes  ...  would not be allowed on film in such graphic detail, but watered down you'd get away with it.  But maybe leave that decision to the producer.


I take that part of being a writer seriously.  I just do my job and tell the story of what happened.  It's someone else's job after I type 'END' or 'FADE', they can tell it how they want to after they give me their money.  I probably won't even go see it if this does ever get filmed.  (Why would I want to go see this if I already know what happens?  What kind of sick fuck do you think I am?)  But it would be fun to see a viewers reaction to it, so I might stand outside the theater as people leave to hear what they have to say.  :-)

Anyway, thank you very much again, Greg, for taking a look-see.  I'm glad to see you enjoyed it for the most part.  And thank you for your thoughts on it.  I think you were spot on that I have to get more into the Davids' family for the story to be 'totally' bought.

See you around.

- Mark


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mcornetto
Posted: February 3rd, 2012, 6:07pm Report to Moderator
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Wow Mark,

I loved that.  It was a fast and fascinating read that had me hooked from the start and a climax made my hair stand on end.   I'm a fan now.  The script did what it's supposed to do, so well done.

However, there are a couple of comments I would like to make.  First off, while I pretty much felt none of the actions or events in this script felt forced there were a few minor things that didn't quite seem right - such as the large change in price for vitamins.  Again, that's minor but you will want to smooth these irregularities out.

The second is the amount of gore.  One of the reasons I liked this was because it didn't need gore to be sickening or horrifying.  So when the gore was introduced it kind of cheapened the script for me.  I would suggest holding back a lot more on the gore - until the end when you actually need some of it to tell your story.

Next, there's a bit of a lull at the end of the second act.  Dramatic tension should be building at this point - but I wasn't feeling it.  Perhaps it's need more about her mother and her pregnancy - build to that climax.

There was one more thing I wanted to say as a comment - only I can't seem to remember it at the moment.  I'll chime in again when I do.  

But well done, Mark.  I was impressed.    

AHA! I remember.  For marketing reasons I would suggest changing the age of Sazha to around 15.  13 is more effective story-wise but it's going to be a hard sell.

    



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Jahon Bahrom
Posted: February 4th, 2012, 2:14am Report to Moderator
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Hi Mark.
I just read your work through. It was an easy read, clean draft good work there, but very dipressing story. I found it little bit racist too. The story is yours, but I would not kill the baby. That is too cruel and unfair. You could bring it close to death, but save the baby in the end. That way it would have a happy end. Also her brother raping her is not a right touch. You are just showing them as animals. IMO no offends. To be honest, I loved your writing, but hated your story. It is a dipressing story in many ways. Too much violence, too much blood and detaled fragments of human parts. IMO it would disguast both the audience and the readers.
On page 11-Roberto's first dialog on the top is confusing IMO.
I didn't mean to be harsh, but it really did ruin my mood. Yet you writing is great. Just get better stories.


Hope I was helpful.

Regards
Jahongir.
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rc1107
Posted: February 11th, 2012, 4:44am Report to Moderator
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Hey Michael,

Sorry I'm a couple days late, but hopefully not any dollars short.


Quoted from Michael
Wow.  I loved that.  It was a fast and fascinating read that had me hooked from the start and a climax that made my hair stand on end.   I'm a fan now.  The script did what it's supposed to do, so well done.


I don't know how to reply to that without sounding like a smug prick, so I just highlighted it again in case anybody missed it.  :-)

Again, thank you very much for the compliments.  Hope you felt the same way I did when I told you how much I liked 'A Doll's Life'.  (What's going on with that, by the way?  Is post finished and has it been around the festivals yet?)

As for the vitamins, (which has been brought up before)... don't ask me.  I've kept an eye on those, and they shift 10 to twenty dollars from store to store and time to time. All I can say to that...  is you foreigners with your funny and/or sexy accents can stop shoving it in our faces about how shitty our health care is.


Quoted from Michael
it didn't need gore to be sickening or horrifying.  So when the gore was introduced it kind of cheapened the script for me.  I would suggest holding back a lot more on the gore - until the end when you actually need some of it to tell your story.


Yuck.  I hate this part.  Gore is always a tough thing to explain.  Without Turrell and Crandall's gore at the thirty-something and fifty-something mark, I'm sure many would complain that Cora's gore on Sazha at the end came out of left field and was just done for pure shock.  I think I just like to show in my writing that people's actions have consequences.  And not always pretty ones.

As for the lull at the end of the second act: Do you think that might have anything to do with Crandall (who I admit has been built up as the main character until then), and his story ending at that point?  And the lull comes with the transfer to get into Sazha's and Cora's feelings?


Quoted from Michael
For marketing reasons I would suggest changing the age of Sazha to around 15.


Are you saying that's a negotiable age?  :-)  It might also be a little easier on casting, too.  But I picked 13 because that's roughly about how old a lot of people/kids around this area were, our first time.  I was 12.  Not because I was a mack, but because my babysitter was a slut.  (I say that in the strictest confidence that my mommy won't read this.  Not because I'm scared she'll be mad I was having sex at that time, but because Shelly's ugly now.)

Thank you, Michael, again, for taking the time to read through this. and letting me know your thoughts.


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mcornetto
Posted: February 11th, 2012, 5:37pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from rc1107
Hey Michael,

Again, thank you very much for the compliments.  Hope you felt the same way I did when I told you how much I liked 'A Doll's Life'.  (What's going on with that, by the way?  Is post finished and has it been around the festivals yet?)

Thanks for asking. A Doll's Life is finished - the director did a fantastic job and it will have its premiere at the Bermuda Int'l Film Festival in March.  Here's the site if you want to keep a watch on where it will be shown after that.

http://www.adollslife.co.uk/

As for the vitamins, (which has been brought up before)... don't ask me.  I've kept an eye on those, and they shift 10 to twenty dollars from store to store and time to time. All I can say to that...  is you foreigners with your funny and/or sexy accents can stop shoving it in our faces about how shitty our health care is.

Fair enough. But remember movies are about suspension of (dis)belief - not about reality.  So if a price hike causes us to lose our belief - it doesn't matter how realistic it is or not.  It's a very common problem that reality does not work in the movies.  It's a very minor point, however.

Yuck.  I hate this part.  Gore is always a tough thing to explain.  Without Turrell and Crandall's gore at the thirty-something and fifty-something mark, I'm sure many would complain that Cora's gore on Sazha at the end came out of left field and was just done for pure shock.  I think I just like to show in my writing that people's actions have consequences.  And not always pretty ones.

I don't have a problem with the gore you use - when it's appropriate.  I just felt that some of it really didn't have a reason to be there (except to shock).   I also, don't have a problem if you leave it all there but I think it cheapens the emotional response when it's doesn't have an apparent reason for it's existence.

As for the lull at the end of the second act: Do you think that might have anything to do with Crandall (who I admit has been built up as the main character until then), and his story ending at that point?  And the lull comes with the transfer to get into Sazha's and Cora's feelings?
The lull comes when Sazha doesn't want to tell her mother about the pregnancy.  There really isn't a follow up on this conflict until much later.  As a result there isn't really any tension in that part of the script.  It isn't that you aren't moving the story forward, just that you aren't building tension when you should be.  

Are you saying that's a negotiable age?  :-)  It might also be a little easier on casting, too.  But I picked 13 because that's roughly about how old a lot of people/kids around this area were, our first time.  I was 12.  Not because I was a mack, but because my babysitter was a slut.  (I say that in the strictest confidence that my mommy won't read this.  Not because I'm scared she'll be mad I was having sex at that time, but because Shelly's ugly now.)
I'm saying this could be produced in Europe as is but you would have a difficult time getting it produced in the US - if at all possible. If you tried to produce it yourself, you might even be breaking some US laws.  And since the subject of interest is decidedly American,  it would be difficult to find someone interested in Europe.  

It may (and the keyword is may) be easier to market in the US if you raise the age of the girl.  But since no one really knows what will sell or not please take this advice with a grain of salt.

Once again, excellent work
  


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Brendan
Posted: February 12th, 2012, 2:42pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark,

I'm in the process of reading this and was about to post what I thought so far until I came here and read through every comment and realized I probably don't have anything to say that hasn't already been said by someone else.

I guess all I have left is to ask what do you plan on doing next with this script and if there is any feedback you've gotten here that you do want to consider for future drafts?

What I gathered here so far is that there are certain elements in your story that other members are arguing in favor of you cutting down on. I hate to be the guy who jumps on the bandwagaon and tells you I agree with them, but it turns out I am. But I still think you can make a shocking story even if you do end up removing some parts or replacing them.

Also, when you said that your job as the writer is to put down the story to paper and that its no concern to you how the filmmakers decide to film it.. But I thought the whole point of screenwriting is that we wanted to see our stories made into movies? I would almost suggest this would be best made into a novel as if as opposed to a screenplay. I must come from a completely different train of thought because every time I write something, I write it as how I imagine it being filmed and edited.



Quoted Text
I'm saying this could be produced in Europe as is but you would have a difficult time getting it produced in the US - if at all possible. If you tried to produce it yourself, you might even be breaking some US laws.  And since the subject of interest is decidedly American,  it would be difficult to find someone interested in Europe.


If you haven't heard of it, I'd suggest looking into the movie A Serbian Film. The movie features the rape of a child as well as a newborn and has been screened here in the US in very limited theatrical release as well as in festivals. No issues came up in those screenings. Overseas however it has been banned in numerous places, two developing labs - one in Germany and one in Hungary refused to hand over the movie to the filmmakers because the film itself was considered to be breaking some laws of theirs, and they are being charged in Spain for exhibiting child pornography. So I think we might paint Europe as liberal enough to make movies featuring kids and sex, there are still some standards over there despite what we think.

Also, I think there is a writer/director here in the US who often tackles films on the subject of pedophilia but his name and the names of his films escape me, plus I've never seen any of them.  

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Brendan  -  February 12th, 2012, 2:55pm
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leitskev
Posted: February 12th, 2012, 3:02pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark

I am curious where things are on this as well. And what you've been up to!

With a little distance from the read, I can say that I have no problem at all remembering the story, which is an accomplishment when a writer can achieve that. This is perhaps do to the combination of clear writing, consistent tension, and strong images.

I do still recommend that the strong images be reduced to one or two really shocking images, as opposed to several. Too many waters down what you're trying to achieve. And I think there are a lot of things that could replace that space which would be interesting, and by bonding us even more to the characters, sharpen the shocking scenes you do choose to focus on.

For example, if we see more of the teacher's progress in leading his students in the classroom. This would be interesting  in itself, and would really add to the audience frustration when things finally come apart.

A similar path would work for the girl, where we see her making real progress. We feel an optimism for her future, then something really tragic happens.

I think you could consider deciding which character is more the protag, the girl or the teacher. Once you do that, you develop a relationship between that character's flaw and the theme you want to focus on. Overcoming the flaw will reveal the theme.

Hope things are well.

Kevin
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rc1107
Posted: February 15th, 2012, 1:24pm Report to Moderator
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Hey, Jahongir.

Sorry about the delayed reply.

Thanks for taking the time to sludge through this one.  Sorry that it was depressing for you.  (Although, I've only ever worked on this story whenever I was in very very depressed (or sometimes angry) moods, so at least I got how I was feeling inside into the story.

And thank you for the compliment about the writing style.  Hopefully some better stories'll be coming my way soon.

I am a little bit curious about the racist comment, though, and how you meant to apply it to this story.  I could've gone into a lot of issues with differences between the black and white culture, but kept any kind of stereotypes or hate remarks out of it and just kept the characters actions related to other actions.  None of the characters reacted with any racial motive.  I was very careful not to steer the story in any direction of that kind.  Yes, it was hinted at here and there that there are differences, but never explored.

Nonetheless, I'm sorry to see that that's how the story came across to you.  I promise that if anything did come across that way, it was not intended.  I'm not the slightest bit racist at all.  (My son is mixed and the current person I'm dating is black, so I promise, I don't hold any hatred in my heart for any cultures.)  Except eskimos.  I don't like eskimos.  Eskimos are smug.

As for Roberta's line at the top of page eleven:  Mr. Bobby teaches science.  She's just saying that she'll become a scientist just so they'd have something in common, meaning that she has a crush on him.

Once again, thank you, Jahongir, for reading and letting me know what you thought about the story.


Quoted from jahon
Your writing is great. Just get better stories.


Lol.  I really really loved that comment.  I just wish it was that easy.  :-)  Have a good one, Jahon.

- Mark


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rc1107
Posted: February 15th, 2012, 1:30pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Brendan and Kevin,

Sorry I don't have too much time today.  I'm still computer-less for a little while and using library time to try and keep up with things.

I have off on Saturday, so I'll head back up here and get back to you guys then.

I'm really really sorry about the delay.

- Mark


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rc1107
Posted: February 23rd, 2012, 11:44am Report to Moderator
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Hey Brendan.

Finally got some time to get online.


Quoted from Brendan
I guess all I have left is to ask what do you plan on doing next with this script and if there is any feedback you've gotten here that you do want to consider for future drafts?


I'm working on storyboards for another feature I'm working on right now mainly, but hopefully this summer, I'm going to come back to 'thistles' and give it a pretty good rewrite before I start sending it around.  I'll have to go over all the feedback again, but I remember definately reading some things that I thought would be really good for the story.


Quoted from Brendan
I would almost suggest this would be best made into a novel as if as opposed to a screenplay.


This story I started a couple years later.  I actually started out writing both the novel and screenplay version at the same time.  Eventually, I get tired of bullshitting in a novel and focused strictly on the screenplay.  If the screenplay goes nowhere in the future, I'll probably approach it again as a novel.

I have wanted to check out a Serbian Film, but haven't found it yet.

I'll be back in a couple minutes to finish, Brendan.

- Mark


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rc1107
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Hey Brendan and Kevin.

All right.  Sorry.  My hour was up at the library and I had to sign up for a new computer.

But as I was saying, I have heard of a pretty disturbing movie called 'A Serbian Film' and am interested in checking it out.  Hopefully I come across it somewhere, as I like to see how others tackle tough subjects.


Quoted from Brendan
Also, when you said that your job as the writer is to put down the story to paper and that its no concern to you how the filmmakers decide to film it ... But I thought the whole point of screenwriting is that we wanted to see our stories made into movies?


I should probably explain a little more what I meant.  Of course I'd love to see my stories made into movies.  Chances are, this one won't be filmed exactly how I wrote it.  I just wrote what happened, tackled and explained what the violence would look like in real life... now it's up to someone else to put it on the screen.  I'm not going to hamstring myself by just saying "Cora does something bad to Sazha," and leave it in the air.  They know what happened, now they decide what to show.


Quoted from Brendan
I write it as how I imagine it being filmed and edited.


That's pretty much how I write it too, unless of course the edit or effects or whatever is too complicated for a screenplay and would just muddle things up.  In that case, I just explain what happens directly, and have faith in whoever I give permission to film this and their ability to select a film and edit crew.  (I've never picked the first person to come along and don't see myself doing that with any of my features, either.)

Anyway, Kev, sorry I can't get back to you right now.  Just got a phone call from work and I have to go in for a couple hours.  I promise I'll try and get back to you tonight.

Once again, I'm sorry it's taken so long.

- Mark


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rc1107
Posted: February 27th, 2012, 3:41pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Kev.

As for 'Thistles', it's on the shelf just for the next couple of months, then I'm going to tackle a rewrite this summer or fall before I start sending it out on some rounds.  (It's nice to have some rounds to send it to.  I've finally been making some connections over the past several months.)

One of the things I'm going to incorporate into the rewrite is Crandall connecting with the class more.  I think that part was a little rushed and I think I found a way to draw on some of the heartstrings of the class.  All other changes and additions I'm going to wait until I can have all my focus on 'Thistles'.

In the meantime, I'm brushing up a short story to send out to some literary magazines next month, and I'm also working on a new feature based on some events that happened to me last spring and summer.  It's the most (probably only) autobiographical thing I've ever written, but I think I've changed enough things and gotten myself mentally as far away from the events as I could, that I feel comfortable looking back on them now and telling the story as if it was somebody else's, without any personal opinions being dragged in.

Other than that, I'm just excited about this summer.  I have a couple shorts that have been filmed and are in post and are supposed to be hitting the festival circuit.  I also have another one that's scheduled to be shot in the spring time in Los Angeles.  Of course, those are only shorts, but at least it's stuff I can start putting into my portfolio so I'm not an absolute stranger anymore.

How about you?  What have you been up to lately?  I thought I saw some talk on the board that you've had some talks with some production companies lately, but didn't get any details.  (You can PM me to reply.)

Anyway, hope things have been going good for you and hope to talk to you soon.

- Mark


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leitskev
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Hey Mark

Glad about the teacher, that's a real good idea for the script. I think if we really see the progress he is making, his fall will be much more tragic. Same with the girl. You will have to research education techniques, maybe, but I bet there's a ton online. Maybe look into what some charter schools have done successfully in inner cities.

Nothing too exciting on my end. I have a feature that someone is trying to produce, but I don't have any confidence he'll succeed. I'm really not involved with it anymore. He's had no luck raising funds. There's a website for it, but I don't even want to give the link here.

I'm gonna take my first shot at Nichols. A feature I wrote this summer and have rewritten twice. We'll see what happens. Meanwhile, just wrote a couple shorts and started a couple new features. Still trying to learn how to write, man!

Glad to hear things are well for you. Creating tension in scripts is tough, and you developed a lot here. I think maybe tone a couple things back, focus on a couple, and it'll round into shape.
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jwent6688
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Hey Mark,

Shit weather today so I got around to your script. First a few page by page notes if anything strikes me...

I thought page 7 was an odd place to describe Sazha. Didn't we already see her on 8mm film?

Felt odd to me that MR Crandall was left to clean his own aprtment of blood and brain matter. I thought they had professionals that come in and do that, alohough maybe not in the hood. Plus, I would still think this would be considered a crime scene for a few days. Seemed to happen a bit fast...

If Turell was sleeping with her, I think you need to drop a mild hint of that early on. It seemed to come out of the blue during the conflict with Cora. Even when her friends were talking about how hot her brother was, it seemed like a perfect time to show Sazha having some reluctance towards the conversation. Drop us a hint, if you did, it flew right over my head.

If your point was to surprise the audience, it felt a bit forced. You have a hell of alot of surprises in this already.

I liked sazha, which made this painful for me to read, even more painful on film IMO. There is definitely some taboo stuff in this. Its hard to swallow in a good deal of places.

Cora mutilating the head of Sazhas baby while she's giving birth may give me nightmares. I understand that you're trying to show an avid activist against abortion going back on everything she fights for, but i would like to see Cora struggle with that decision. Not just act right away. I actually wanted to see Cora try to take her to the clinic for an abortion.

You open and close this well with the pschiatrist not being heard at first, then you learn the questions as we revisit the scene. The use of the poem is a good one here as I can see how it fits your theme. You end this with sazha seemingly forgiving her mother. I had a hard time with that. But, I see that's the theme you were going for here.

When someone writes a dark story like this, I really am at a loss for suggestions. I don't like them and what could I suggest? Something to make it even more painful to endure?

I have no problems with writers taking on dark depths of reality in their stories. not everything has a happy ending. But, that's what I read the papers for. I go to the movies to drop out of reality for a bit.

You've shown a great improvement in technique since the last feature I've read by you. I didn't read other comments, so i'm sure you've been called out for some structure elements being a bit off here. Never puts me out of a read so long as I keep interested.

I wish you best with it. It certainly is... something. Just not a something I would like to sit through on film.

Sorry this review seems short, because it is. This happens to me when I come across a story i feel I can't contribute much to.

Good luck with the rewrite, maybe let me know what changes you plan to make and i could chime in a bit on those.

James


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rc1107
Posted: March 26th, 2012, 8:54am Report to Moderator
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Hey James,

Thank you very much for taking a read of this.  I understand some of the situations are really tough to get through, graphically, and I imagine tough to also watch on screen.  This is a story I've only visited through the past couple years whenever I was in a deep depression, which is probably why it's so dark.  I definately understand what you're saying.


Quoted from james
I thought page 7 was an odd place to describe Sazha. Didn't we already see her on 8mm film?


I'm still not 100% if I'm going to keep the opening 8mm scene.  I am leaning towards it, and if I do, I'll go back and move page 7's description to the 8mm.


Quoted from james
I thought they had professionals that come in and do that, alohough maybe not in the hood. Plus, I would still think this would be considered a crime scene for a few days. Seemed to happen a bit fast...


Actually, I'm not too sure about this one.  I don't know if they do around here or not and honestly, I didn't give it that much thought.  I just liked the visual of Crandall having to sop up the mess.

I do know that in the shootiing I witnessed just a couple weeks ago, they just left the blood (and glass) on the sidewalk and it stayed there for a couple days, until the rain washed it away.  The glass is still there.  But that was outside.  Not too sure if they'd clean it up if it happened in someone's house.


Quoted from james
If your point was to surprise the audience, (in reference to Turrell), it felt a bit forced. You have a hell of alot of surprises in this already.


Yeah, I'm still trying to decide if I want to keep that in there or not.  The story is still pretty powerful with it just being about Sazha and Crandall.  I thought Turrell's actions just added a couple other elements to Sazha, and help explain the weird things she does here and there.


Quoted from james
I understand that you're trying to show an avid activist against abortion going back on everything she fights for, but i would like to see Cora struggle with that decision. Not just act right away.


I tried to show Cora's breakdown throughout the story, with Cora losing control more and more, (like with her beating someone over the head with her sign), so that when she does find out about Sazha, it's more of just a sudden violent reaction than anything.  I think I do have to work on her breakdown more.

The inspiration for Cora actually comes from those rash of abortion clinic bombings in the 90's I remembered reading about.  I found it fascinating that these people are so for life, that they'll kill people to get their political views across.


Quoted from james
You open and close this well with the pschiatrist not being heard at first, then you learn the questions as we revisit the scene.


Lol.  Well, that makes it easier to decide if I want to keep the 8mm scene or not.  :-)


Quoted from james
I have no problems with writers taking on dark depths of reality in their stories. not everything has a happy ending. But, that's what I read the papers for. I go to the movies to drop out of reality for a bit.


I don't read the papers, so I have to take my dark side out in my scripts.  :-)  I understand using movies just as a form of entertainment.  But for me, I enjoy movies for the experience, whether they're happy, sad, violent, romantic, or slow or action-filled.  This for me is just one of those sad ones.


Quoted from james
i'm sure you've been called out for some structure elements being a bit off here.


Hmm.  Not exactly sure what you're referring to here?  Do you mean the technical stuff, like the margins?  (I've been told they were off.)  I'm getting Final Draft this week, so hopefully that'll fix that kind of stuff.

Thank you again for taking a look and letting me know your thoughts.  Sorry it didn't seem to sit that well with you.  (Trust me.  I understand why it didn't.)  But I appreciate you sharing nevertheless.

Thanks much.  I'll be seeing you around.

- Mark


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sniper
Posted: March 26th, 2012, 3:09pm Report to Moderator
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Wassup, Mark.

I picked this up last night in bed, thought I was only gonna get through 20-25 pages but about an hour and a half later I had finished the script. It was around 2 am at that point and I had really hoped to catch some shut eye but that script stayed with me for another hour or so before I finally dozed off.

Buddy, this is one ballsy fucking script. Having read a lot of your stuff I knew that it was going to be that way but I guess I hadn't really prepared myself for it. Goddamn, that's some strong visuals, man. Shee-it.

Okay, the script itself is tighter than a twelve year old girl - excuse me, a thirteen year old girl - precise descriptions and fairly breeze dialogue. A couple of akward phrasing here and there but nothing - absolutely nothing - that destracts from the overall read. I see other people have mentioned act breaks, stakes, goals etc. and they're wrong - in that this script doesn't really follow the general road map - but i was actually okay with that in this instance (and I'm usually not). As part of the genre, you've written "Independent". Wise move, my man, because that let's you experiment a little with where the different act breaks - and I guess pacing as well. Cos I gotta be honest, things did develop slowly but that didn't mean the script felt like it was dragging. I couldn't point to one scene that didn't need to be there (okay I can, and I will later).

Mr. Crandall is one sad character and I like the fact that his backstory was never really revealed in great detail. We know just enough about him and his past to get why he's like that but I think you could've kept him alive longer. I mean, he dies somewhere after the halfway point and while the scenes where Sazha earns money for the vitamins were a nice touch the story sort of lost one of its driving forces.

One thing I didn't see coming was the reveal that Sazha's brother had been coming into her bed. Maybe I missed some hints along the way but I just read him as a (racist) crackhead.

The "abortion" scene...God damn! I'm not even go into that one other than to say it was friggin terrible to read but beautifully written. I also like the  reversal you pull on Cora by having her be the one that actually performs the abortion. I actually thought at some point that Sazha was gonna cook the placenta and serve it to her mother (that would have been fucking gross).

I might be wrong but it appears that Sazha forgives her mother in the end. I have a problem with that if that's the case. It seems to contradict her entire goal. But like I said, I might be wrong.

The opening scene with the 8mm footage...hmmm, was it really needed? I'm asking because I think it gives away too much from the get go. Oh, and 8mm? Really? In this day and age every the crappiest cell phone seem to have an HD camera so I'm not so sure an 8mm camera would be used. Nitpicking, I know.

Anyway, that's my .02. Sorry I couldn't give you more to work with but...there really isn't that much I would change.

Good stuff, Mark.

Cheers
Rob


Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
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rc1107
Posted: March 28th, 2012, 5:14pm Report to Moderator
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All right, Rob.  I'm going to try this again.  This time I'm going to Copy what I type every two minutes.

Thanks again, for taking the read.  I'm sorry it kept you up longer than you wanted to be.  All right, I'm not sorry it kept you up.  I'm kind of proud, actually.  But, I have some major sleeping problems and know what it's like not to sleep.  So, I am actually sorry.  I'm glad it got you thinking, though.


Quoted from sniper
Buddy, this is one ballsy fucking script. Having read a lot of your stuff I knew that it was going to be that way but I guess I hadn't really prepared myself for it. Goddamn, that's some strong visuals, man. Shee-it.

Okay, the script itself is tighter than a twelve year old girl


Lol.  You're fucked up.  You're hilarious, though, too.  If you don't mind, I think I'm going to use those comments as coverage when I start sending the script out to companies.  I think 'ballsy' and 'tighter than a 12 year-old' might attract some attention and get it read.


Quoted from sniper
I see other people have mentioned act breaks, stakes, goals etc. and they're wrong - in that this script doesn't really follow the general road map - but i was actually okay with that in this instance (and I'm usually not).


Actually, for this story and the two stories I'm working on right now, I'm throwing the three act structure out the window and just writing the story as it comes, and just making sure I'm putting in a turning point every couple of pages, rather than every 30.  Of course, someone can always go to page 30 and page 60 and find some elements of different acts starting, but that's not how I roadmapped or planned it.  I just made sure I wrote every scene escalating and escalating and where it ended up is where it ended up.


I'm glad you like Crandall as a character.  I really liked writing about him and his isolation.

I don't know if you remember or not, but this is the story I told you about a couple years ago that I was sitting down writing as a screenplay and a novel at the same time.  (I don't recommend anybody ever do that.  It just made everything drag on and on and everything was taking forever and moving at a snail's pace.)  However, one good thing about that, is that I got to know the character's very well.  I think there's a lot of evidence of that in how I was never scared to leave any of the characters by themselves.  Crandall drinking mouthwash on his couch.  Sazha listening to the heartbeat of her baby.  Cora staring at a blank television...  All those things said something about the character and still moved the story forward without any dialogue whatsoever.

(And, just for the record, I stopped writing the novel at around 24,000 words.  I found out that the big difference between writing novels and writing screenplays is how much you can bullshit.  I'd rather get in, tell my stories, and get out.)


Quoted from sniper
One thing I didn't see coming was the reveal that Sazha's brother had been coming into her bed. Maybe I missed some hints along the way but I just read him as a (racist) crackhead.


I could be an asshole and say to go back and read it again closer to find the hints.  But there weren't any.  That storyline is still in mid-air if I want to use it in the final draft or not.  Initially, when I was writing the storyboard, that idea was in there.  But I took it out while I was writing the actual script itself, which is why there weren't any clues.  But, I decided to put it back in because I thought it added a couple different dimensions to Sazha as a character, and why she does some 'not so normal' things towards the end.


Quoted from sniper
The "abortion" scene...God damn! I'm not even go into that one other than to say it was friggin terrible to read but beautifully written.


I love writing horror stories and labeling them as dramas.  You can catch people more offguard that way.


Quoted from sniper
I actually thought at some point that Sazha was gonna cook the placenta and serve it to her mother (that would have been fucking gross).


Damn!  I gotta use that now!  You know what's really really funny, though?  I got home from work late lastnight (or early this morning) and that's when I first read your response.  And this was the first story they were running on Yahoo at the time:

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/january-jones-eats-own-placenta-healthy-ick-165800669.html

Coincidence?  I think not.


Quoted from sniper
I might be wrong but it appears that Sazha forgives her mother in the end. I have a problem with that if that's the case. It seems to contradict her entire goal. But like I said, I might be wrong.


It's not that Sazha came right out and automatically forgave her.  I realize it might have come out that way when Sazha started cooking meals for Cora again, but that was just to show that she was just on the road to getting things back to normal again, back before everything happened.  True, she probably shouldn't even be living with her mother, but she is developing some of Crandall's characteristics and just giving in, that's why she's on that road.


The 8mm scene is up in the air, too.  It does give away a lot from the get go, but I wasn't trying to pull any fast ones with this story, so I'm not sure if it does any harm or not.  I just wrote it in there because I wanted to have an image of Sazha carrying around a wooden box and wondering what's in it.  Then, we find out at page 20-something, then find it's a lot more than just what we think it is.

Lol, and I just used the term 8mm because I wanted the reader to have a very grainy picture in their head, and rather than explaining that it's grainy in the scene heading, 8mm seemed to do the job.

Again, thanks a bunch for checking this one out.  I really appreciate your thoughts on it and I'm glad to see you liked it.

Say, just out of curiosity, did you happen to notice the connection to the story and the poster I made for Thistles in the first reply of this thread?

I was wondering if somebody was going to bring it up, but so far, only one person has.

Thanks again, Rob.

- Mark


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NSFWJo
Posted: April 3rd, 2012, 8:55pm Report to Moderator
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Mark,
Thank you for this story. It was so powerful. This may haunt me for quite some time. I'm walking away from this feeling as though I experienced something real.

I'm new to screenwriting. Thistles really blew me away.  I'm inspired.

I probably sound way over the top with the compliments, but they are genuine.  I really liked it.

Jojo
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rc1107
Posted: April 5th, 2012, 9:45am Report to Moderator
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Hey Jojo.

First of all, let me say welcome to SimplyScripts and welcome to the boards.  I think I saw a feature pop up on the site a couple days ago that had your name on it.  I can't remember the title offhand, but I'll do a little searching and give it a read in the next couple days and let you know what I think.  Hopefully, you'll plan on sticking around the site for a bit.  There is a pretty good amount of learning that can be done around here.

Secondly, thank you very much for the warm compliments.  I'd be lying if I didn't say your post brightened up my day.  :-)

And thank you for taking the read, too.  I'll be searching for yours that I saw later on today.

- Mark


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Mr.Ripley
Posted: June 7th, 2012, 3:13pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark,

Gave this a read and finished it in one night. lol. Now, I didn't read any of the comments so I might be repeating which will tell you to fix the problem.

Spoilers!

I think you need to fix the logline so that it centers on Sazha. Didn't see much story with Crandall.

I would like to know her obsession with her white teacher and having the baby. Why Crandall? Also, if she wants the baby so bad, why not fight her mother tooth and nail?  

I would like also to know a bit more of Sazha and Turrell's relationship. She claim of their incestuous nature. Didn't see that coming. lol. Prob give some small hints early on.  

I think you should limit some of those shocking scenes. That will make your shopping of this script less difficult. I must say though, that was some fucked up shit. lol.

Wouldn't Sazha's friends try to comfort her at her loss? Also, wouldn't Sazha confide in them about her pregnancy or they can confront her about it?

I have no problem with Sazha's age in the script however I think producers might. Prob change her age to 17?

Other than that, it was a good tale. A very quick read. There were times that you took me completely surprised like Turell's death. I thought it would be Crandall because of the opening. Very good.

Also, as much as I love the white space on the first page, I think you should just repeat that questioning between Pattona and Sazha. I think it will have a bigger impact.

Good luck in optioning this.

Hope this helps, and can't wait to read the new draft.
Gabe


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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rc1107
Posted: June 8th, 2012, 12:21pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Gabe.

Thanks for taking a look at this one.  I'll be checking out 'Dark Entrance' as soon as it hits the portal.  Or was it 'Cain' that you submitted?  I'll be on the lookout for both.

Anyway, I struggled a lot with the logline on this one.  This is the logline I actually used when this was just a short story I was putting together, and I just couldn't think of anything better.


Quoted from Gabe
I would like to know her obsession with her white teacher and having the baby. Why Crandall? Also, if she wants the baby so bad, why not fight her mother tooth and nail?


She sees that he's very easy to manipulate.  She wants to know what it feels like to be the dominant one, rather than the submissive that she is.  Of course, I only allude to that in the script.  I never came right out and said it.  I didn't want to beat people over the head with it.

As for not fighting tooth and nail for the baby, she was trying the best she could to just protect it, defend it.  She didn't want to attack her mother.  Afterall, she is very much like Crandall and is very passive at times.  That's why I wanted to show her moving on at the end after everything.  Where Crandall failed, Sazha succeeded.


Quoted from Gabe
(Sazha's) claim of their incestuous nature. Didn't see that coming. lol. Prob give some small hints early on.


Yeah, the hints I gave were very scarse, and you could probably only see them by going back and reading it again.  In the latest draft, she did tell him that she was going to tell on him about what he was doing, but I leave it open as to whether it's about the drugs, or something else.


What?  Make the shopping of the script less difficult?  Where's the reward in that?  :-)


Quoted from Gabe
Wouldn't Sazha's friends try to comfort her at her loss? Also, wouldn't Sazha confide in them about her pregnancy or they can confront her about it?


I wanted to portray her as a loner, much like Crandall was.  Yes, she does hang out with them after school for a bit, but that's as far as it goes.


Quoted from Gabe
There were times that you took me completely surprised like Turell's death. I thought it would be Crandall because of the opening. Very good.

Also, as much as I love the white space on the first page, I think you should just repeat that questioning between Pattona and Sazha. I think it will have a bigger impact.


Yeah, that whole opening is still up in the air.  I just wanted to show that Sazha's carrying around a box with something sacred to her in it, and that's the best way that I could think to do it.


Quoted from Gabe
Hope this helps, and can't wait to read the new draft.


Thank you very much, Gabe, but there are only very very minor changes that are going to be in the newly posted draft, mainly fixing the typos and a few smoother transitions.  Some of the shocking stuff is toned down, but not very much at all.

In fact, the only reason I'm posting the new draft is because putting the story in the new software I have, properly formatted and all, cut out sixteen or so pages.  I was shocked when it made that much of a difference.

I always wanted the story to have a runtime of 85-90 minutes, and I was surprised when I ended up with 100 pages in Word.  I'm shocked how the formatting was off that bad.

Thanks for all your thoughts and comments, Gabe.  It's much appreciated.  I'll be on the lookout in the portal for your stuff when it's posted.

- Mark


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Mr.Ripley
Posted: June 8th, 2012, 12:37pm Report to Moderator
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Spoiler!

I think some of the things you allude to in the script could be conveyed best through dialogue. I understand what you are saying about not hitting people over the head with the material, but I think it will be best to do so. Cause sometimes action doesn't work. It's what they say. People talk alot and say want is on their minds. lol.

Like the incest. I didn't get that early on. I thought Sazha was referring to the drugs since it was established that Turrell does drugs. It was a great shock at the end but, it feels kind of like it came out of left field type of shock. That sexual relationship wasn't established enough between Sazha and Turrell.

Gabe

P.S., my script was originally titled Cain but, I changed it to Dark Entrance.


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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danbotha
Posted: August 4th, 2012, 7:04pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Marc,

This is more of a thank-you than a review. I read this script about a month before I joined SS. It was the first un-produced script I have read, and boy, was it a good way to start my reading over here. In short, this script was absolutely brilliant and remains, to this day (hold your breath) my favourite script on SS. The writing is quick and easy to read and your story is just awesome.

So, why the thank-you? If I didn't pick up this script, I would have overlooked this website and probably never returned. I would still be writing with the same mistakes and not learning from anything. So, thank you, mate.

Daniel


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rc1107
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Hey Daniel.

Thank you very much for the compliments.  Glad you came to SS.

I haven't been around too much these past couple months, (I haven't really been online much these past couple months.)  But now with the busy summer winding down and the kids going back to school in a couple more weeks, I hope to get back into the SS groove of things a little more, and become more acquainted with some of the newer members, who, just browsing around the site when I can, have been doing a lot of contributing.

So you should be seeing me around more and more soon.

Glad you decided on making 'Thistles' your first script to read at SS, and I'm honored that it's still your favorite so far.

Thanks again for the compliments.

- Mark


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AmbitionIsKey
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Hey Mark.  So, new to the board, and was seeking a drama script to read and was suggested to read this, and got through this in technically one sitting.

First of all, your log-line was enough to make me interested.  But it seems a little bland and I don't mean this in a mean way at all.  I would consider revising it to make it more enticing.  Maybe focus on your female lead more, since by the time I got finished, I knew this was her story and not the teachers.

As for the actual screenplay, it was a great read.  Pithy pacing that was kept moving.  Although the idea for the screenplay seems like a mix of things we've seen before, overall, I still enjoyed reading this.  When I first read your log-line, I thought of a movie I had seen before called Akeelah and The Bee, which I enjoyed.  This seemed like a new version of that, but much more fresh and grittier.  It has an "indie" feel to it, which I loved, 'cause I am a huge lover of independent indie-cinema.

SPOILERS HERE-AFTER --

The moment that caught me was when our main character gets naked in Mr. Crandall's apartment was the hooking-moment.  From then on-wards, I knew I'd finish this.  When she did that, it was so unexpected and shocking, and a great hook to a reader.  Up until then, everything had just been "okay" but then it got better after that.

The incest story-arc was shocking.  It came, maybe, a little too out of the blue, but at the same time it added to the shock of the story and I never seen it coming.  It added to the gritty feel of the screenplay.

Also, you have great characters.  You're a great writer, don't let anyone say any different.  This was a great read.  The dialogue was all flowing and enjoyable and nothing was bland or out of character for those who spoke it.  Sazha was my favourite, and the dialogue with her friends was interesting and felt natural.

Another thing I want to mention is the ball-sy move you did with the abortion.  I hated Cora, yet I loved her.  I was so conflicted, and then that happened, and wow it was great.  

Overall, this was a great read.  It had an "independent" feel, and the writing was great.  The only thing that REALLY bothered me was having the scene-headings in bold-text.  I don't mind it with transitions, but for headings I am not really a fan.

So, yes.  Great read.  All your characters were "real" people to me.  This was a moving story, that was tragic (in a good way).  If this were a real movie, I'd have it sitting on my DVD shelf!  Movies like this I really enjoy, and I can say the same for the screenplay you have here.

Well done, and the best of luck with wherever you take this in the future.

-- Curtis


"No matter what you do, your job is to tell your story..."

Short scripts

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(6 pages, drama/thriller)
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rc1107
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Hey Curt.

Well, the first thing you bring up is the log-line, and that's what's giving me the most trouble about this one.  I definitely don't like what I came up with, but my mind's been blank for a very long time on how to improve it.  I've tried focusing on other aspects of the story, but nothing still stands out about it.  I'm going to keep trying, but you're right, I do have to figure out something to make it more enticing.

Yeah, the incest-angle does come a little too out of the blue, and I've thought a lot about that, too.  I toyed around a bit with not having it in there at all and just giving little tiny hints that he might be and might not be visiting his sister at night.  When I did make the decision to add it in the story, I might not have went back and foreshadowed it so good.  I've been taking a long look at doing that, too.


Quoted from curt
Another thing I want to mention is the ball-sy move you did with the abortion.


That part is going to be hit and miss for a lot of people.  Eventhough I'm not too big a fan of horror anymore, I still consider myself a horror writer who works under the guise of drama, so when that shock hits, it's amplified because most people aren't expecting it.

That being said, I admit I did go too far in showing what was happening on screen.  That'll never be filmed.  But I really don't mind showing too much in the spec script since I know it'll be watered down during filming anyway.  I figured if I have everything up there up front, when it does get time to cut description down, the idea of what happened'll still be there and that sick, lingering feeling will still be captured.

Thank you very much for the compliments, Curt.  I appreciate your thoughts on this one.  Welcome to the boards again and I can't wait until 'Run For Your Life' hits the boards.  Looking forward to it.


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AmbitionIsKey
Posted: January 27th, 2013, 11:39am Report to Moderator
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I am sure a log-line will come to you soon enough.  I think the one you have is fine, interesting enough, but if you're looking to capture it more and make it more fitting to the screenplay then I am sure something will come to you

The incest angle did come out of the blue, but I still loved it! It gave the screenplay that urban, gritty and shocking feel.  I am glad you decided to keep it in!  However, I agree with you, it could have been more fore-shadowed earlier on during reading.

And I agree with the abortion, and the showing.  It worked to your benefit And no worries about the review, I really would love to see this grace the screen so I really wish you the best of luck!  And thanks about "Run For Your Life" I submitted it yesterday, and I know it'll take Don a while to get up, but I am happy you look forward to it!

-- Curtis


"No matter what you do, your job is to tell your story..."

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oJOHNNYoNUTSo
Posted: January 27th, 2013, 1:36pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark,

I read 'Pond' when it first posted and really enjoyed it, so I was excited when I seen more work from you bumped up.

You are talented in the tension and dialogue department, Tamika and Roberta's dialogue was paced perfectly.

Page 11 & 12, She also keeps her eyes peeled for any cars that might pull into Planned Parenthood's parking lot. Nicely done, great character development.

An embarrassed WOMAN sits in the passenger's seat of the car, her face in her hands. Again, nice visual to make the tension stand out.

Page 15, WHAT! This story is flying by, the plot thickens...

Page 34, I can't help but read Smithers and think of Mr. Burns.

Page 44, Even the protestors are taken aback as Cora keeps pounding the woman's head over and over with the sign. I'm really liking the planned parenthood scenes.

Page 47, I'm intrigued on the way you handled Crandell's downward spiral, but I'm having a hard time buying into Sazha's dialogue here, although her actions seem believable.

Page 50, Is this inspired by "Breaking Bad" at all? It has the vibe, I'm very curious.

Page 51, OFFICER #1
(shrugs)
Thoughtful guy, though. He made
for an easy clean-up.

LOL!

Page 53, I like the juxapostion between the two funerals. I know you didn't make any metion of a tombstone, but I would suggest something basic like a aluminum tag stake with Crandell's name stickered on it.

Page 64, Cora kicks her in the bulging belly over and over. This is intense, Cora is your most dimensional character. UPDATE: HOLY SHIT, DUDE!

This was a thrilling read, great tension with an intense climax. The ending was great, everything came around full circle. I am a huge fan of the psychological ideas you brought to the table here, one of my favorites on the site.

Johnny

Revision History (1 edits)
oJOHNNYoNUTSo  -  January 27th, 2013, 1:50pm
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rc1107
Posted: January 28th, 2013, 10:07am Report to Moderator
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Hey Johnny.

Thanks for your thoughts and compliments on this one.


Quoted from Johnny
You are talented in the tension and dialogue department, Tamika and Roberta's dialogue was paced perfectly.


I submitted this to a screenplay contest recently and in the feedback I got it mentioned how great and real the dialogue was.  One of the readers even mentioned how they noticed that Sazha's dialogue changes and she picks up the nuances of how they talk.  (When she talks with Crandall, she's a little more eloquent.  When she talks with her mom, she's more respectful.  When she talks with her friends, she's a little more ghetto.  And when she talks with Smithers, she picks up his polite drawl.)  All the while keeping her shy and awkward personality.

I'm happy to see people are catching on to that.


Quoted from Johnny
Page 15, WHAT! This story is flying by, the plot thickens...


Yeah, this isn't quite a 'Save the Cat' script.  I knew this was going to be a slow burning story, so early on while developing this, I tried to place a plot point every 5-8 pages to pick up the pace and keep the story rolling.  I think it might've been to a fault, though, because the reader's mentioned the story happens too quick, like an outline.


Quoted from Johnny
Page 34, I can't help but read Smithers and think of Mr. Burns.


Thanks.  Now I can't, either.  :-)  Actually, I was just sitting back listening to Tom Waits and saw a couple pictures of him.  I wanted to use him as an image of the old liquor store owner, and for some reason or other, he just looked like somebody who would be named Smithers.  The Simpsons reference pops in my head every now and then, but is quickly replaced by Tom Waits' image.


Quoted from Johnny
Page 44, Even the protestors are taken aback as Cora keeps pounding the woman's head over and over with the sign. I'm really liking the planned parenthood scenes.


The readers for the contest were really fond of those, too.  They mentioned how powerful and character-revealing they were.


Quoted from Johnny
Page 50, Is this inspired by "Breaking Bad" at all? It has the vibe, I'm very curious.


I've heard great things about it, but I'm not a big T.V. fan.  (I haven't even had cable since 2006.)  I've never seen 'Breaking Bad', but I do know it's about a teacher who starts dealing meth or something, so I understand where you're coming from it has the same vibe.

I think I got the idea of bringing a white teacher into a ghetto neighborhood from the movie 'Dangerous Minds'.  Of course, I took it in a totally different direction and focused on very different themes.


Quoted from Johnny
Page 53, I like the juxapostion between the two funerals. I know you didn't make any metion of a tombstone, but I would suggest something basic like a aluminum tag stake with Crandell's name stickered on it.


:-)  As you could see at the end, I was saving the make-shift tombstone for Crandall's son and Sazha's private little ceremony.


Quoted from Johnny
Page 64, Cora kicks her in the bulging belly over and over. This is intense, Cora is your most dimensional character. UPDATE: HOLY SHIT, DUDE!


And that's where I probably won't do too good in the contest.  Myself, I love those difficult scenes and more-than-likely won't change them any time soon, because I am at heart an exploitation writer, but the readers did mention it was way too graphic.  They said there's a time and a place for violence, and that wasn't it.  Hopefully, the judge'll see through the story and know where the violence is coming from.


Thank you very much for the read, Johnny.  And again, thanks for the compliments.  I know I've read your two shorts that I've seen, but do you have any features posted on the site?

- Mark


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Mr.Ripley
Posted: February 3rd, 2013, 7:44am Report to Moderator
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Congrats on becoming a Bluecat Quater finalist.

Hopefully someone picks this up.

Gabe


Just Murdered by Sean Elwood (Zombie Sean) and Gabriel Moronta (Mr. Ripley) - (Dark Comedy, Horror) All is fair in love and war. A hopeless romantic gay man resorts to bloodshed to win the coveted position of Bridesmaid. 99 pages.
https://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1624410571/
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jwent6688
Posted: February 3rd, 2013, 8:24am Report to Moderator
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Congrats Youngstown! Just echoing Gabe.

James


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AmbitionIsKey
Posted: February 3rd, 2013, 8:33am Report to Moderator
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This deserves to be picked up!  It would be so gritty and so good on-screen!  You deserve it!  I'm Irish, so I wish you luck! *sprinkles Irish luck over the Thistles thread*...

-- Curt


"No matter what you do, your job is to tell your story..."

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Electric Dreamer
Posted: February 3rd, 2013, 10:49am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Mr.Ripley
Congrats on becoming a Bluecat Quater finalist.

Hopefully someone picks this up.

Gabe


Nice going, Mark!
I've always held this script in pretty lofty regard.
May it bring you everything you deserve.

Regards,
E.D.


LATEST NEWS

CineVita Films
is producing a short based on my new feature!

A list of my scripts can be found here.
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rc1107
Posted: February 4th, 2013, 2:53am Report to Moderator
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Thanks guys.  (Gabe, James, Curt and Brett.)

I was excited when I saw the news.  But damn it, this is only going to get my hopes up now.  :-)

Thank you again.


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LC
Posted: February 4th, 2013, 6:03am Report to Moderator
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Good luck Mark!
Crossing my fingers for you.


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rc1107
Posted: February 4th, 2013, 7:17pm Report to Moderator
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Thank you very much, Libby!

After this and with 'Pond' and 'Burnside' being on the boards, I feel like I've been hogging the portal recently.

Maybe I'll wait a couple more weeks before I post up my next story.

Thank you.


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Gaviano
Posted: February 17th, 2013, 7:35am Report to Moderator
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hi Mark, ive been floating round these boards for a few months now. Finally read your script and I really loved it.

i enjoy your writing style, concise and to the point, its very easy to read.

The logline didn't offer anything new but hey that can be fixed eventually.

i dont understand why some people have questioned the name "Sazha", its just a name.

it was difficult at the beginning to determine what kinda girl Sazha was, she was quiet and introverted but her friends talked about blowjobs etc.. I didn't really enjoy that dialogue.

I think it would be difficult to cast Sazha in this desired role. i feel for her, but Im unsure if i like her as a character.

I liked Crandell. Hes the kinda character i like to write, someone with a tragic past. Hes the guy I cheer for. I do think he died to early tho.

Didnt see the incest angle coming, shocking.

I dont agree with some people who say its TOO shocking. Yes there does seem to be a little excessive hardships going on in Sazhas life, but thats life.

i do think the whole baby-killing incident and aftermath was a bit much, too graphic,im all for gritty "real" violence but i actually think it would work better if it was toned down a bit.  

good job and congrats on the Bluecat comp. Will go read your other scripts soon.

-Gavin


The MacBook is mightier than the Sword

Read me:
HOME (9pgs)
DAY 67 (10pgs)


twitter: @logiebaird  
If you're a filmmaker feel free to contact me via email concerning my current screenplays or to request some of my other work.
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rc1107
Posted: February 19th, 2013, 3:30pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Gavin.

Welcome to the boards!  Glad to have you here!


Quoted from Gavin
The logline didn't offer anything new but hey that can be fixed eventually.


No, it can't!  I've tried and tried and came up blank!  :-)  I'll be the first to admit, loglines are definitely not my strength.  I don't think I've ever written one that I liked.

But I am glad that the story shined through.

I think you're right.  It'll be very difficult to cast Sazha in this.  There's a young girl in one of my shorts that was filmed and she has the exact look I was going for, but ultimately, I think it'll all come down to how much the director wants to show on film in the end, and they'll probably cast from there.  I'm assuming they won't want to show the violence onscreen, so casting a 13 year-old'll be okay.  But, if they want to show a little bit, they might have to go with a very young looking 18 year old.


Quoted from Gavin
im all for gritty "real" violence but i actually think it would work better if it was toned down a bit.


I kind of wanted to go all out in the script.  Knowing it's going to be watered down when filmed, I wanted as many strong images as possible to influence the scene so the brutality of what's going on is still there.


Quoted from Gavin
good job and congrats on the Bluecat comp. Will go read your other scripts soon.


Thank you.  There's still a long way to go in Bluecat, but at least I'm still in the running.  Thank you very much for taking a look and letting me know what you think.

I don't recognize your name in any stories I've come across recently, do you have any scripts posted on the site, yet?  Let me know and I'll take a look when I can.

Thanks again, Gavin.

- Mark


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Gaviano
Posted: February 20th, 2013, 1:34pm Report to Moderator
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Hi Mark,
I dont have any scripts up yet as i kinda want to earn my stripes first before expecting any reads. Trying to read and review as many scripts as I can on here. Want to become a regular member.


The MacBook is mightier than the Sword

Read me:
HOME (9pgs)
DAY 67 (10pgs)


twitter: @logiebaird  
If you're a filmmaker feel free to contact me via email concerning my current screenplays or to request some of my other work.
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RegularJohn
Posted: February 24th, 2013, 9:43pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark.

Just read this and gotta say...wow.  Aside from the crisp writing and the clean, genuine dialogue, this story is deep, dark and very heart-wrenching.  The short scenes did nicely to tie the larger, emotion-packed scenes together.

I haven't read all the comments so I'm not sure what the other reviewers touched up on but that's how you write a f***ing climax!  It's really graphic among other scenes.  I did read someone suggesting that Sazha's age be raised by a couple years which I agree with.

Not to take away from that powerful climax but I think, in this rare stipulation, you can direct the camera away from the act and describe only the sound.  I don't think it'll take away from the grisly scene but actually enhance it's horrific tone.  Maybe over black?  Just a suggestion, then you can cut to the bathtub delivery.  Not sure if the water in the tub was running but I think that little detail could add to that scene as well (just a tiny detail that I feel may work wonders.  Mother in the living room with the shower running, faint cries through the spray.)

Like the others, I felt the incest was out of the blue.  Some undertones in the dialogue between Turrell and Sazha could give some inkling.  Perhaps a bit reserved or deflective when she speaks to him.  Anything to suggest their relationship is out of the ordinary.

Sazha's character was very deep and complex and I could never figure her out and I mean that in the best way possible.  A very difficult feat to capture IMO so I give you props.

All in all a riveting tale that won't soon be forgotten.  Awesome story, Mark.

Johnny


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rc1107
Posted: February 25th, 2013, 11:22pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Johnny.

Finally got a little bit of time tonight so I can reply to this and get your feature started and hopefully read without any interruptions right after.

Thank you very much for all the kind compliments.  I'm glad you liked it and saw the power in it.


Quoted from Johnny
Not to take away from that powerful climax but I think, in this rare stipulation, you can direct the camera away from the act and describe only the sound.


That's how I assume that scene'll probably be shot if this ever gets filmed.  The reason I described it in detail is so none of it gets lost from script to screen.  I know it'll be watered down by the director and I wanted to get as many horrific things in there so that it still might be a little traumatizing even when watered down.  :-)  I happen to be speaking from personal experience when I say that, as I wrote a pretty disturbing short once and after it got watered down, some of the horrid elements still shined through and it was just as powerful.


Quoted from Johnny
Not sure if the water in the tub was running but I think that little detail could add to that scene as well (just a tiny detail that I feel may work wonders.  Mother in the living room with the shower running, faint cries through the spray.)


She does turn the water on, but not until after she's done and she's doing the cleanup.  I really do like that idea and love that image of the mother you're talking about.  I just might have to work that in somehow whenever I get to another rewrite of this one.  Thanks for the advice.  I really do like that idea.

As for the incest and giving a little more clues, I'll have to think about that.  I wrote two versions, one where he isn't sleeping with her, and one where he is.  I decided to keep it in that he was sneaking into her room at night because it added more layers and complexity to Sazha's character, and it gave her a strong reason why she would want to be with Crandall so bad.  I might go back and work it in more in the beginning just to see how it plays out.  I think for right now, I do like the jarring realization.  But I'm definitely debating it.

Once again, thank you a lot for the very kind compliments.  I appreciate it and can't wait to get into your feature.

You'll be hearing from me soon.

- Mark


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RJ
Posted: June 18th, 2013, 7:23am Report to Moderator
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Hi Mark,

I said I'd get around to this and I forgot, I'm sorry.  As for my comments, I haven't read any others so sorry if I repeat what's already been said and remember they are just my opinion - take them on the chin if you want to.

Pg 3 – PATTON
It could be pictures of her
brother. Pictures of him, even. – Didn’t know whether the ‘him’ was meant to refer to someone else or the brother. That bit reads kind of weird.

FALL – I didn’t get this either. I haven’t seen it in a screenplay before and was interested in whether you’re just stating the weather or a camera direction?

Pg 4 - Conversate – converse?

Balding and underweight, Crandall's not handsome; but he's not unhandsome. – I didn’t understand why this was here and not with his initial description.

Pg 24 - SAZHA
Just tired, I guess – missing full stop.

Pg 27 - structure that needs to be learned – learnt.

Pg 40 – Crandall rubs a temple – IMO, reads a little better as ‘his temple’ – doesn’t matter which side.

CRANDALL
I don't have any money whatsoever
right now to be able and move
again.

–Maybe a little rewording on this would make it sound better.

Pg 54 - INT. TURRELL'S BEDROOM - NIGHT
Sazha's made it her own room – is this a mistake or are we looking from Turrell’s room straight into Sazha’s, across the hall or something? If this is now Sazha’s room, maybe state that as ‘Turrell’s old room, now Sazha’s’.

Pg 55 - She throws the item in with Crandall's other things. – IMO ‘throws’ is the wrong word, like a harsh reaction. If she is happy I would picture her placing it in the box rather than throwing it in.

Pg 59 – SPRING – Ok, now I understand ‘FALL’, but thought it would be better stated as a superimpose.

Ok – I had to stop after Cora started stabbing the babies head. I’ve had four kids and this scene just made me sick to my stomach. I wanted Sazha to fight back before then and if her age in this was a tad older she may have been able to. I was getting into this until then, I’m sorry, but I really don’t want to go any further.

As for writing, except for a few niggly bits, you’ve got a flare for it and I see a bright future for you in this business. Good Luck.

Renee
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rc1107
Posted: July 5th, 2013, 10:58pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Renee!

I'm very sorry not to get back to you sooner.

I'm even more sorry to have put you through reading that.  I don't blame you for wanting to stop one bit.  It wasn't fun to write, either, but I still felt it was a story that needed to be told.

I do remember mentioning that this one might not be your cup of tea when we had talked before, but I should've warned you a little better that it gets very graphic towards the end.

As for all the other notes you mentioned, I have rewritten this for the Nicholl's competition, and I do address some of the things you mentioned, but thanks for the heads up on all the other things I missed.

I'll be talking to you soon.

- Mark


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SAC
Posted: July 8th, 2013, 8:56pm Report to Moderator
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Mark,
Seen this script around a while.  Finally read it.  Did not take long as your writing style was crisp and to the point.  Your action seemed to give just the right amount of info without going overboard.
Your characters read well, each having their own voice.  Very well written!

Every now and again i come across a writer who can write the hell out of something.  And you did with Thistles.

While it was extremely graphic, it was also compassionate.  Your ending tied everything up nicely.  Sazha was easy to root for.  I could really feel her pain, and I was happy for her triumphs in spite of her obstacles.  I don't recall a character in recent memory whose pain I actually felt.  And I don't just mean her physical pain, but her sorrow when she lost her baby.  Her animosity toward her mother.  Her love for Crandall.  And her closure when she put up her makeshift gravestone.

Heavy, heavy stuff.

I don't try to read ahead and guess what happens in stories.  I like to get lost in the story, and just let it take me on a journey.

I gasped when I found out Turrell was sleeping (raping?) Sazha.
I cringed when Cora aborted Sazha's baby.
And I almost --almost!-- cried for Sazha in the aftermath in the bathroom.

Don't know if this will ever get made.  I'm not too sure what kind of audience you're shooting for here.  Def not your mainstream kinda thing.  More Indie, I guess.  

The ONLY issue I had with this was when Sazha first tried to seduce Crandall in his apartment.  She came out of the bathroom totally naked.  I just didn't think that was totally believable that she would do that.  Maybe she just takes her top off, or something like that.

Anyway, my two cents.

Congrats on this, Mark.  Fantastic!

Regards,
Steve


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Guest
Posted: September 25th, 2013, 4:33pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Mark,

Thanks for reading my script a couple months ago.  I know you said you didn't want to do an exchange in return, but things are slow around here so I decided to check this out (along with Breanne's Devil in D Minor, which I highly recommend).  I try digging up stuff around here when I'm bored and in need of a script that will just blow me away. . . or at the very least entertain me for the next 2 hours.

I'll say I liked it.  I wasn't blown away or anything.  It was good, to a certain extent.  You have Sazha who just suddenly appears in Crandall's room, stark naked, and that's where you got my attention.  The Crandall character is a good one and I think he needs to be around longer than he is.  IMO, this script drags big time for the next 30 pages or so and Smithers just seems like a throw in to make the script longer with wisdom that isn't really hard-hitting at all.  (Also, you might want to re-work that logline.  Crandall doesn't really tutor Sazha.  And Sazha isn't really gifted, by any means.  What you could change it to, I don't know, but as it stands now, it's more like false advertising and doesn't tell your reader what Thistles is truly about.)

The only "good" thing that comes out of that next 30 pages, I think, is that incredibly brutal and very uncomfortable scene where anti-abortionist Cora performs a violent abortion on her own daughter.  Talk about irony.  Also, talk about uncomfortable.  That was a cringing scene -- and not in a laughing 'this writing sucks' way.
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rc1107
Posted: August 2nd, 2014, 3:20pm Report to Moderator
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Holy moly.

I was just reading through some of the comments and didn't realize there were new ones.  I'm very sorry Steve and deadite.  (Another name change?  Thank God you don't change your avatar.  :-)

I'll get into detail with your comments when I get off work in the morning.  Thanks for checking it out!


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Guest
Posted: August 2nd, 2014, 8:39pm Report to Moderator
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No problemo.  

I would actually like to see how others (maybe newer members?) feel about Thistles.

It didn't blow my hair back, but it did have some "uncomfortable" scenes, and I'd like to read people's reactions and thoughts on them.
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Pale Yellow
Posted: August 2nd, 2014, 9:18pm Report to Moderator
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Mark!

Super congrats on this projects progress!

D
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rc1107
Posted: August 3rd, 2014, 10:20am Report to Moderator
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Thanks, Dena!

Steve:  Thanks for checking this out.  I'm glad you liked it and thanks for the kind words.


Quoted from Steve
Don't know if this will ever get made.  I'm not too sure what kind of audience you're shooting for here.  Def not your mainstream kinda thing.  More Indie, I guess.


Yeah, I think you're right about getting it made (well, not getting it made.)  Although, I'm sure if a director did take this on, he'd tone it down quite a bit.  I just decided to go balls to the wall so when it does get toned down, it might not lose all the agony the characters are going through.

And yeah, the 'pube' scene (as I like to call it), with Sazha early on, does go overboard a bit, escpecially for so early in the story.  I'll probably be visiting that again if I ever come to rewrite this one again.

Thanks again, Steve.


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rc1107
Posted: August 3rd, 2014, 10:31am Report to Moderator
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Hey again, Deadite!

Yeah.  It's fun to see people's reactions to this one.  If there's ever been polar reactions, it'd be for this story.  It's either love or hate.  (Luckily, it's been a little more love than hate, though.)

I could see how you're pretty neutral on it, though.  There's a lot of low-key drama to get through to get to the heavy subject matter.

I'm glad you caught on to Cora's character arc.  I wanted to do an extreme character arc, and she ended up being the perfect character for it.

And I can't stand the logline for this one.  I just can't think of one that's any good for this story.  I've hated everything I've come up with.

Anyway, thanks again for checking this out.  You got anything new on the boards, recently?  Just let me know and I'll check it out.

- Mark


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DS
Posted: August 3rd, 2014, 12:47pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Guest
I would actually like to see how others (maybe newer members?) feel about Thistles.


Challenge accepted. Will give this a read later.

Congratulations on the success at AOF, rc.

- DS

EDIT: Just read this and I'm blown away. This one's going to stick with me for a while (and no, I'm not talking about that bathroom scene). I'm quite new to screenwriting and I can't say I've I read a lot of screenplays, I think I could say that this is the best script I've read. Couldn't notice the time going by ever since I got past the mentions of Taye Diggs ( He was good in Day Break. I still remember that series even though I saw it when I was around 10. Action. Consequence... don't really remember too much apart from that actually...), the script completely engrossed me.


So I'll just go ahead and start with what Deadite is most curious to hear about. I recall reading the IMDB message boards some time ago on "My Name Is Khan"... Someone had started a thread on how unrealistic it is for someone to die after being hit in the stomach by a soccer ball and a lot of posters on that thread agreed. I recall a post saying how insulting it was to the viewer. It certainly made me think how much movie/TV culture has influenced this kind of view. All those people getting away from a bunch of fights and walking away perfectly fine.

So I don't really mind the realism here. Especially since the violence here benefits to the story. It's not just there for the sake of violence. As in the two headshots in the story, in real life it usually isn't just a small hole in the temple. I thought it was in character for Cora to just get carried away with it, coming to an awful but realistic result in the state of the body. Would i fast forward through this scene on the screen if it remained how it is in the script? Hell yes. Would I expect this scene to remain intact if the script were optioned? No.

The realism is what really made this script. The characters and the situations seemed real. Most importantly the dialogue seemed real. It must be difficult to write a mature teenager without making them seem too much of an adult. It worked great with Sazha in my opinion. I didn't notice anything preachy, it just seemed to show a poor neighborhood and the people living in it for what they are.

Crandall was the most compelling character for me. I especially like how you added how broken he was into his visual description, the past to present comparison. Despite all he had been through and how distant he was from the real world, the scene where Sazha read his notes about the students posthumous (great scene btw, moved me the most in the script) showed how he wanted to see the best in everyone was great and just made his character go full-circle.

Really wanted to see Cora get what was coming for her, but it had a much bigger impact this way. Loved the ending scene.


I'm usually just very anti-asides. I always end up thinking "Cmon this could have been written through actions" This one on Page 83 I could live with. It just fit his character so well that you could see it's there for a reason.

"
SMITHERS
(to himself)
It's none of your business, old
man. Whatever it is, it's well
over now. Just let it all die."

Only gripe I noticed was on page 4:

Balding and underweight, Crandall's not handsome; but he's
not unhandsome.

This was 3/4 a page behind his character description. I saw no reason for it to be there.

Not only did I get a really good read out of this. Something that really effected me emotionally.. I also feel like I learned a great deal about how to write a screenplay. Thank you for that and thank you for putting this on the paper. I'm going to google around on what exactly AOF is later. I don't know what this script is up against, but this deserves to see the light of day and I seriously hope I can see this on the screen some day. Hard to say anything that isn't praise. Good luck in AOF.

- DS


Revision History (2 edits; 1 reasons shown)
DS  -  August 4th, 2014, 3:50am
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rc1107
Posted: August 4th, 2014, 9:38am Report to Moderator
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Hey DS.

Thank you very much for the very kind words.  I'm glad you liked it and really glad you got an experience out of it.  That means a lot for a writer to hear.

I'm glad you liked the realism of the script.  I know a lot of screenwriting books and teachers tell you that people don't want to watch real life, they want to watch great heroes in great impossible situations.  And that's true.  But I'm just wired differently in that I have to be emotionally attached to the characters and that's what I try to incorporate into my stories.

It's funny how you should mention Smithers' aside.  I can't stand asides and thought really hard about taking it out.  But it just felt natural coming from Smithers for some reason, so I left it in there.

And I get your gripe on page four.  I don't know why I put it there and not earlier in his description.  It was just something I wanted to do while writing.  I'll have to visit that again.

AOF is the Action On Film International Film Festival.  Somebody from this site brought it to my attention and then a production company I work with mentioned about it too and said it was a really good festival, so it seemed like a good idea to enter.

Thanks again for your kind comments, DS.  Do you have anything posted on the boards yet that I could check out?  Let me know.

- Mark


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