May as well get this up and running now, since the discussion began regarding the logline.

Title - "Fade to White"

Genre - Horror

Tag line - Danny and Carlie are in for a lot more than just skiing, the weekend after Christmas, in Durango, Colorado.  The white of the falling snow won’t be the only color they’ll see.

The script can be found here

The logline is okay for me. It may not tell us a whole lot about the plot, but it has "me" intrigued. I can tell by "The white of the falling snow won’t be the only color they’ll see" that blood will flow at some point in this story and the genre being horror is all I need to know if I'll give it a shot or not.  

So very early impressions, you claim it's not a slasher flick, and four pages in we've got a guy skewred with a BBQ fork, a woman killed with a flying ax and three people shot including a young boy.  I really hope there's some payoff in that.  Nothing loses me faster than a kid being killed gratuitosly.

I'm sure there will be some payoff to that.

I'm having more of a problem with Carlie and Danny being a little tooooo sweet to each other. Hun, honey, baby and so on in every other sentence. That might just be me though... I'm not that sweet and friendly myself. Pass the salt please!  

I've read upto page 42 here, I'm guessing this is the end of Act 1. Got to say it's a good script so far.

The murders at the start seemed a little comedic to me. Not sure if that's just me, or how I read it. Just all seemed a bit over the top. Really well written and easy to imagine, but just something about it I found funny.

The scene on the plane is a good set-up for Danny and Carlie. I have to say I don't really like them though, but they seem to be well-formed characters. Just a little too successfull for my liking haha.

The big scene in the bar is excellent I think. Dialogue is wickedly good, really natural and all the characters have their own personality and voice. I think the scene maybe goes on a little too long though. This is all just character development, we're not getting any plot yet.

Top stuff so far.

I wrote a review on the script's thread, so to rehash a bit and copy and paste. I read only to page 23.

People already talked about the logline so I won't go into it. One item that caught my eye was the 124 pages. That's alot. That's a 2 hour film. I think you should probably consider cutting some stuff back to at least 90 or 100 page mark.

There's definitely alot stuff he can cut out like Carlie and Danny driving dialgoue and the dialogue when Carlie and Danny have when Danny collides. Cut it to when their in town. Also you have many characters. You should probably reduce it to the important characters such as Carlie and Danny and the guys at the Horney Toad.

The fact he gave a name to the pilot and co-pilot says they are main characters. If their not, call them pilot and co-pilot. But what i saw as an important scene was the co-pilot first and then the pilot. The whole I want a baby theme is good.

In addition, he need to keep it upbeat. I was getting kind of tired (sorry to say) reading through. The opening had me a bit but then its all meeting characters and getting to know them. It's good but I think it can be shorten to also include some conflict.

He cut the horney toad scene to intercut Calrie and Danny at the store. I advise probably to continue the Horney Toad scene through and cut or move the store scene. Preferably cut the store scene and find another way of expressing Danny's breast look in the Horny Toad scene.

I noticed he used a song (home alabama) planning to do the same thing but having second thoughts since it's copyright rights. So, I suggest removing that and keeping it general.

I'm not good in dialgoue but I think some can be reduced as well. Like the beginning scene, (pardon the formating,lol.)

Tobias: Ecuse me?
Loyd turns.
Tobias: Sorry to bother you. I'm staying at your neighbor's house and I was looking to cook  but have no pro pro
Loyd : propane.
Tobias : Yes.
Loyd: Sure. come in.

I'm still going to read it. The script has that feel of "funny games".  

Gabe

Okay, this is probably the fastest any feature script has ever been read by so many people as soon as it went up so Jeff, congrats to that!  

So what shall we discuss first? Jeff is not allowed to chime in! haha

IMHO, this script has some problems. Especially for a horror script. Except for the beginning there's nothing horrific, creepy, mysterious or anything that leads us to believe this is a horror script. If I watched this on film, I would have to wait over an hour before anything "horrific" happens. I'm talking about the wood shed scene of course. And that scene isn't scary either. Nothing foreshadows this event. It just happens seemingly out of the blue.

Let's start the discussions.  

My main issues with the script were the dialogue and the story structure.

I disagree with Stebrown's assessment, as I thought there was just way too much talking for a script like this.  I understand the need to build up the characters and what not, but these people all kind of sounded the same to me.   I'll concede that people who hang out with each other do have the same general ways of saying things, but even their tones all seemed to fit the exact same personality mold.  

Marty and Janelle seemed to be the two most unique characters of the bunch, and I thought a little more could have been done with them.

I couldn't tell if all the "hons", "babes" and "boos" were there to establish Danny and Carlie as overly affectionate or just plain creepy, but it came off as the latter.

In the end I found that a lot of the dialogue did little to advance the story...and with story, I move on to my second issue.

I think a lot more could have been done with this.  We have this couple on vacation, we learn about them and this group they meet up with at a bar, and it turns out their killers, mixed up in what seems to be some kind of really fucked up vacation package, which we really don't find out about until the very end.  IN THE CREDITS.  I don't think this was a big enough twist to warrant going about it this way, and the story should really be about that.

Got a lot here right now, so I'll let others respond before getting back into it.

I agree Mike about the chatter. It leads nowhere. There's no sense of something bad that will happen soon or in the future. Other than Jake was it, that had hit a big Mexican bouncer with a metal pipe, but that was long time ago. IMO, even the dialogue has to be written carefully and the right words should be used to help set the tone for the script. Again, was it not for the beginning I would have thought this was going to be either a drama or dull comedy and everyone was just going to end up drunk and in bed with each other.

This might not sit well with the author, but I really think this script should be no longer than 90 some pages or near 100 at least. That's how much unimportant stuff there is that can be trimmed. Especially from the first 2/3 of the script.

I read this script a while ago so I have no idea if it's been changed or not since I read it.  I'm hedging on not much.  So looking back at my notes.

I also thought there was a problem with the chatter as well.  There is just too much of it. If the chatter provided stuff related to their murders later then it would be easier to be more forgiving-- but I don't think it does.

The other thing about this chatter is that it doesn't help you like these characters.  If it were modified in a way to increase our sympathy toward the characters being murdered then it might also work.

But as it stands the most sympathetic characters in this script are Carlie and Danny. I'm not certain that is who I would want the sympathy to lie with.  I think because of this there is a lack of tension until the last scene in the house.

  

I agree that the chatter can be limited so that it could move the story along. I understand why dreamscale included the chatter (character development) but its really overboard especially after the first murder scene.

Gabe

Just so we understand why the author put the chatter there and since he can't reply yet in this thread. When I originally brought the chatter up to Jeff, he replied (and I quote).

"The whole long intro is also meant to throw off the audience and have them wondering what’s really going on and when is it going to start.  Are you familiar with Wolf Creek?  It has an extremely long buildup and I remember as I was watching it at the theater, I was asking myself over and over, where is this thing going?  When it got going, I was thankful for the ride."

Well, I can understand trying to replicate what has worked in the past, but I think most people here are reading and giving comments true to how we reacted when reading. It is ultimately up to the writer to decide if our opinions are valueble (sp) or not. In all honesty, if I was watching this in a theatre and after one hour "nothing" has happened, I'm gonna walk out. Unless I have a lot of food left. If I'm watching this on dvd and after an hour I'm not spooked or anything when I was promised a horror film... I'll hit eject.

I can understand that.  And I thought there was way too much chatter too, still do.  Though when people started speculating as to why the chatter was there.  I thought, since I had actual information as to why it was there, I would present it.  It can still be discussed and people can react to it.  It just that we know why the author put it there - instead of having to guess about it.  I hate guessing games. Don't you?

Okay...I'm new to this site, so I may be a little over zealous...but it seems that this is the latest script to review so, so after reading "Fade to White" and reading these posts...I would like to add my two shiny copper pennies worth!

For the most part I understand what some of you are saying, but I think anyone who obviously spent as much time as Dreamscale did at writing this screenplay deserves a lot more input than just talking about the "Chatter" and whether there is too much of it or not.  

I personally don't mind the development of the characters, could it be trimmed abit and still keep the integrity of the story, yes.  So rather than staying with the avenue some are traveling on...I'm going to blaze my own trail!  Here's a few things I did like. (warning...I'm still digesting it! lol)

First and foremost - it was easy to read and not filled with spelling mistakes. While it did take a while for the plot to thicken...I liked it when all the pieces started to come together.  I realize we spend a lot of time waiting to have the killer(s) emerge...but when they do, the story starts coming together for me.  I liked the suspense of the Cop not knowing who to believe, the knife spinning across the floor, how it built up intensity with the prospect of the other part of the group arriving.  I also liked the feeling that Jill was going to save the day...but I also wasn't sure if she was going to end up getting killed.  

I felt that the screenplay was written in a way that made it easy for me to visualize the people and the scenes.  I was a little confused about why this was happening...why this "sugary sweet" couple would turn so deadly....but maybe that is the point Dreamscale is trying to make...they possess something completely opposite that very persona...I don't know...why do people kill in reality...jealousy, money, insanity, unsupressed rage...whatever it is...it's never a "normal" way to deal with life.  

The scenes at the end during the credits were interesting and helped to tie up some of the loose ends for me. Xavier seems like a sinister person and these missing pieces provide an obvious open end for a sequel. Maybe?????

From movies I have seen, (some of which were mentioned in the comments above)  Wolfcreek being one of them, it took a long time to get into that story, but like this one, when things started happening, I was cringing most of the time. So maybe if this ever gets produced it would have the same effect on me.  

So...the nutshell of my commentary is this: easy to read, good grammar and spelling - A+ (no I'm not a teacher ~  Trim out some of the fat so it doesn't take so long to "get there" and I think Dreamscale has something to be proud of.

~m~

Quoted from MBCgirl For the most part I understand what some of you are saying, but I think anyone who obviously spent as much time as Dreamscale did at writing this screenplay deserves a lot more input than just talking about the "Chatter" and whether there is too much of it or not.

I can see where you're coming from, but the purpose of this thread is to discuss one element of the script for a bit, and then move into something else.  At this point, it's the dialogue, or "chatter".  We'll eventually move into another aspect at some point.

The actual thread for the script is reserved for comments on the script on the whole, and that's where Dreamscale is actually able to comment back at this time.

I also forgot to tell you earlier...Welcome to the board.

Ahhhhh...that makes sense....I'm a newbie...so didn't realize that.  I stand corrected and more knowledgeable

I will address it after dinner...I'm starving!!!! lol

Thanks for the welcome too!

MBCgirl =)

Not to pile on but more to give examples of where there's extraneous cahtter:  From the scene in the cabin of the airplane to when we enter the bar is about ten pages.  Could (and should) very easily cut to about two or three.  YOu could work the cabin scene, set up the baby/no baby conflict without a word and do it in less than a page.  The entire bagge claim scene should be cut.  I like the catching a snowflake on the tongue buit in the parking lot, but again, could be done with minimum dialogue and in half the space.

Also, when we get in the bar, and the waitress brings the drinks, there's half a page of everyone telling the waitress which drinks are theirs.

Again,. this isn't meant to pile on.  I think it's a common thing with inexperienced screenwirters, and something I'm working through on yet another draft of the screenplay I'm working on.  I feel the need to connect every bit of action with dialogue, or another scene.  

Come in late and get out early.

Hey MBCgirl and Seamus,

Welcome to SS and thanks for chiming in on this.

Seamus, glad you pointed out some real examples.

The dialogue is fairly good, but like we agree on by now, it's too much of it. There are also a lot of characters and their way of speaking sounds very similar. There are several characters who end their sentences with "you/ya know" for example.

I have managed to read up to page 60 so far and have to agree really with the chatter. There really is too much of it and it could really do with being trimmed down some.

But it is not that chatter is bad, the dialogue in most parts is pretty much okay, there is an idea of who these characters are and they have become distinct enough that I am not having difficulty telling them apart. And while Pia makes a valid point about them having a similar way of speaking that does seem to be the case with many of these teen movies in general. But there is just far too much character establishment being shown in dialogue that could just as easily be done with action too. The example about the ordering of drinks is a great one. I tried to think about other movies that have bar 'ensemble' scenes and what would usually happen is that the waitress would arrive at the table with the drinks (we would just assume somebody has bothered to order the drinks). I can see good reasons to show us what people are drinking sometimes, it can help establish character, individual drinks can perhaps point to different personalities. But let the waitress do that in one quick scene.

I think the biggest problem with the chatter is that there is nothing else happening, I mean I am on page 60 and the movie has only just started. An hour is a very long time to sit in the cinema and watch a bunch of kids getting drunk and having small talk. A problem might be that because this opened up as a very chatty screenplay there probably is a need to keep it going otherwise we would start to wonder why everyone has gone quiet. I understand the whole Wolf Creek thing but that film had more happening during the slow build-up. They were driving around the Aussie outback, there was already adventure happening. Here all I have seen so far is a plane journey, a bit of shopping and a bunch of kids getting wasted.

I dislike Danny and Carlie immensely, far too smug and in love with themselves. Some of the dialogue between them at the beginning was just too much. I was going to say more about that but having just got to what I assume is the start of the film proper then maybe there is good reason for that so i will reserve judgement until I have read more. But Danny probably has some of the worst dialogue of anyone, I have just read him entering the shed and he talks about how it would be nice to have a shed like that at home. It just does not feel right at all and I wonder if he felt obliged to put some dialogue in there just for the sake of it. I would have thought an approving nod would say as much in much less time?

I am confident that Jeff could easily knock 20 pages from the beginning of this screenplay and not lose anything from the story. Just by being more economical with the dialogue and using action more to establish character.

But I am interested and despite my thoughts above the characters are fairly well set up know and am looking forward to reading the rest to see how they all (i presume?) meet their grisly ends.

Oh, and kudos should be given for managing to get a hint of girl on girl in there too

SPOILERS

So I finished it.  The payoff doesn't justify killing a kid.  Sorry.  

Here's my question.  Is it you're intention for us to know they'rw the killers at the beginning?  Because they're so creepy, that i knew something was up by the time they got to the bar.  So if you're trying to set that expectation up, than it worked.  But if we're suppossed to be surprised that they're the killers, you need to tone it down a bit.

I really don't get the point of all the flashbacks at the end.  I understand the point of the first one, where they explain things, but most of the rest of them don't really further anything along.

Again, the long middle part in the bar needs to be cut.  It does nothing to advance the story or character.  I do like the story about spring break, and I do like how Jake gets pissed.  Throws some suspicion on him.  

And I just kind of blew the ending, so help me out.  Where they targeting those kids specifically?  And if so, how did they know that they would be in the bar?  

I would do the Xavier scene not as a flashback but as them actually showing up to pick up the money they've been promised.

I'll probably have more, but it's time to go home now.  

Hmmmmmmmm...I still find the dialogue to be realistic...guess I'm standing on this opinion by myself. I find the characters in this script to be real, interesting and each do have their own personalities.  I will delve into this more tomorrow when I have sufficient time to do it justice by pulling out some examples of where I think the script is pretty brilliant actually.  

I DO still hold to my earlier thoughts that the script could be cut down without effecting the overall story and the "writer's" creativity. I'll include some examples of that as well.  

One thing I want to say tonight before heading to bed - is that I watched "Wolfcreek" again (just the first part before everything starts happening).  Honestly, the car scenes are pretty slow and there's very little if anything going on, let alone any kind of action or scenery to speak of...but what does work in this script is that I almost had to keep watching to see where it was going to go...if you know what I mean.  So is that the intended build up of curiosity that the writer was going for???  I don't know...but I think probably...not to mention they were on a very tight budget for making this film!

Here's another example to ponder...the movie "Superbad" which I thought was indicative of it's name...SUPERBAD...I have never heard so much worthless chatter or dialogue and yet this movie made a whopping 100+ million dollars...so who am I to say what works or doesn't work...in general I think movies coming out most recently have all been a bit long...even Batman the Dark Knight.  Ouch!

I will try to throw some constructive criticism for the "chatter" in here tomorrow.  

MBCgirl

  
  I think I have a different definition than others in terms of character development, I don’t think the bar sequence was character development.

  My definition is a challenging and changing of beliefs that cause new, hopefully moral, action. Sure we spend a lot of time with them so I’m familiar with them, which is something you want to do too.

  I don’t think that’s what we got here no one is able to change because no one is challenged. Also, it’s not that they even have to change, but they can still be challenged. I think it’s important that we’re familiar with the characters, which is all I think this sequence does. These scenes aren’t going to seem as long on screen as they do on the page because a lot that’s in the description are things that’ll be described in pretty much the same instance. For example, the description of all the characters in succession would be shown in split second.

  I also think I got a different definition for dialogue. I think that the conversation was weak most spent on drinking and how drunk one is, people may talk like that, but it’s boring. I point to Reservoir Dogs and the tip scene, which has conflict, which is the fastest way to establish not only character but also character relationships, who’s the boss of who. Also it makes the audience think and want to chime in.
  Do people really talk like that? In ‘Pulp Fiction’, Amsterdam, they appear to be talking about nothing yet it’s interesting one because it’s interesting topic the difference between country and culture, and two more importantly is that it comes back up in a more interesting way with the kids. In the bar sequence there was the story about the bouncer, which was good, but felt even that was long. There was some other interesting things, but the ratio compared to lot of drinking, and would be interesting if someone used drinking to help there on goal or to hinders someone else. Shelton mention that Mary and Janelle seemed to be the only interesting two, I agree, it’s obvious why because they appear to be the only ones with a conflict. I think the lesbians, Megan and Nicole, if I remember correctly why could that be revealed in the bar sequence they go to the bathroom and something happens. I mean that’s how you introduce a character.


  I think there’s a debate in itself of “realistic”, MBCgirl mentioned how she thought it was realistic, and the writer is reaching for something similar to Wolf Creek. I think it’s weird, and consider it a bigger mistake, when it comes the bar kids and their dialogue because they repeatedly talk about how drunk they are, which shines a light on number of flaws. It diminishes all their character’s to a note “stereotype” character (unless you induce different type of drunks), it makes you think how unbelievable they are too drink and be so wasted, blah, blah than drive under the harsh weather conditions, and it also doesn’t make for much anticipation in that the how much of a fight these kids can put up if they are as drunk as they say and as much as the writer reminds us. I don’t have a problem with the sequence in the bar being as long as it is, but I don’t think it’s an even trade to long and drawn out for the sake of “realism” than commit and create all of the things I mentioned.


MBCgirl, you know you’re not going to get away with that Dark Knight reference. LOL. No, I just want to say it was a big long, but if you mole it over in your mind in terms of plot every scene was necessary. The only thing they could of did was trim down the action, but it was an action movie too, this is one of the many pitfalls of the action flick is that action stalls a story’s plot.

Movie off the chatter talk I won't to know what people thought about the characters. I really want to know what people think about what I said about them being drunk and whether or not in hurts the characters? and the anticipation, in that they want be able to put up a fight? And why would he mentioned it so much in the dialogue and the description, I'm not talking about "he stubbles to the car", which is ok. But "He's wasted" that's direct tell.

Not to get of topic.


I thought Wolf Creek was OK, but out of that whole bunch that started that movement I thought Hostel had a better idea, High Tension was second best too Saw I. Just so people don't think that I don't get the approach.

The only thing Wolf Creek had going for was that crappy "Based on True Events".

And I will mentioning that logline, again.

Hey Bee, you're right about the tip conversation.  A great example of dialouge working on a bunch of different levels.

And you're spot on about the dialogue in the bar.  It may realistic, and sound like a bunch of drunk kids in a bar.  But dialogue needs to do more.  It needs to advance the plot or give us some insight into character, and this doesn't.  It just keeps circling back to who's drunker.

The one exception is the bouncer bit, which throws some suspicion towards Jake as being the dangerous one.
,

Good comments from everyone here!

BLB, I didn't have that big a problem with them being drunk except for two things. One is that they constantly talk about how drunk they are and second being that they are a little more than past the happy stage. They can barely walk, throwing up and passing out in a car.  That is too much for it too be interesting as a victim. Even a cat could take one of them out without a huge struggle so good point there on their level of drunkenness.

My biggest problem with this script though is what I mentioned earlier. Besides the violent beginning, there's no hint of this being a horror movie anywhere. It could just as well be a drama. Until the shed scene.

  As I understood it, the reason for the slow beginning was to keep the audience wondering what’ll happen next. What I’m trying to point out in the argument about them being drunk is that I don’t expect much from intoxicated and/or inept characters. I just don’t see how that approach works. On hand it’s anticipation, but on the other it’s little evidence to suggest much surprise. I don’t have a problem with them drinking either, but the writer and character’s bring up how waster they are so much, it’s like I’m trying to ignore that for suspension of beliefs sake, but he keep gnawing on it.

I think that a long with the title, genre, premise and first 10 pages a writer enters a social contract with the audience about what the story is going to entail, or more specifically establish it’s genre. So, under that definition in my eyes, it is a horror. I mean I see where you coming from though, Pia.


After reading the script though, I’m wondering why all the withholding when it came to the logline. Did he not want to mention a killer because it was his big reveal or? I don’t know I just don’t get it. I mean after reading the story I’m enlightened, but if it wasn’t for this I’m not sure I read it based on the title or logline.


The story is based on the kills, they are the best part of the script, more so than the reveal, which isn’t that surprising. I’m not going to say I knew they were the killers, but I was like these two are so nice, like he’s trying too hard not to draw suspicion from that you begin to believe the two aren’t the main character’s, yet we’re falling them, why? The possibility that they are bad seeps in. The slow deaths, thudding, the description of the pans, knives going into bodies, the way I imagine them screen is what makes this movie good. I quite enjoyed the later part of the movie. I think it’s a case of the writing being better than the story.

I think that credits clips thing is a tricky thing, it's like you get ready to walk out every ten seconds another scene, another. I don't know tricky.

Appologies for not keeping up with this part.

I'm up to page 73 at this point. Planning to finish later on. But from what I've read so far, there is a lot of slow pacing.

I mentioned in the beginning post that 124 pg script will turn away alot of readers. It should go to 90 or 100 most. Most of the slow pacing is due to Dreamscale developing character. But it takes too long and some of the characters are not unique. It should be cut down to only move the story along. And the characters need to be real enough so that we could feel for them. This applies to the bad characters as well. Psycho, Open Window, they revealed sympathetic bad people.

Danny revealed as a killer came out of left field since I didn't see it coming. There is no hint of this anywhere. (I haven't finished reading, but it makes me think Carlie is either with him or has no idea of what's going on, which will be an interesting angle.) But things should be hinted in the beginning that will help explain the end.

Logline is a tricky thing. It's a middle ground between revealing too much and too little. Especially if this is your first script, you're not going to want to reveal much. It's a mistake that gets us at some point, but it can be fixed after understadning what the script is about and reflecting it on page.

I suggest probably to cut down the number characters to help Dreamscale focus on the main characters arc. If you have too much, everything gets confusing. I didn't try to figure out whose the murderer since their were too many characters to keep eye on. So either delete them or if you find the characters important at least focus on the important ones and then go back and focus on the other characters.

Atmosphere wasn't really scary. It seemed to perfect. Everything was fixed in a timely manner. That is not real world. Everything is never fixed. Some things are but not all. He's got to explore other options of getting these problems solved. What if the teenagers were jerks? What if we meet the teenagers at the highway where the car messed up?

Hope any of this makes sense, I tried to recap alot.

Gabe

I'm reading the script now and enjoying it, but I do have some griefs. One of my overall problems with the script is that there are too many instances of pointless action interrupting the dialogue.

           MARTIN
   You guys skiing?

           CARLIE
   We're gonna be as soon as the slopes
   open tomorrow morning. We can't
   wait. It looks amazing.

She giggles.

           MARTIN
   Oh yeah, it sure was today, but that
   powder's tough, ya know. I'm so
   sore.

We as an audience understand Carlie’s excited about skiing because she just told us she couldn’t wait. Take out that line about giggling, and doesn’t this exchange read much better? There are too many interruptions like that in this script, and that’s probably why the chatter feels lengthy, as others have mentioned.

           CARLIE
   OK then, let's drink! And how 'bout
   some music?

Danny laughs, the others join in.

This sounds decent enough on paper, but in reality, it’s not that funny. All of these people are gonna look pretty stupid (and desperate) laughing their asses off over something as silly as that. This isn’t Austin Powers. Carlie isn’t Dr. Evil here.

A majority of the dialogue reads this way, and it bothers me because these people aren’t comedians. They’re friends.  I know most of them are drunk, but that doesn’t mean they’re gonna slap their knees every time one of them makes a little wisecrack.

Personally, I’m at the point in my friendships that, if one of my buddies makes a little joke, I barely even react to it. I’m accustomed to that type of humor because I hear it so much.

I also understand that Danny and Carlie are new to this crowd, but that doesn’t mean every member of the group will bend over backwards to make them feel welcome.

I just feel that the writer is responsible for the dialogue, and the actor is responsible for how it’s delivered. I don't think the writer should include the reaction unless it’s imperative to the story or the character, and most of the reactions in this script are not.

Just something to think about and discuss.

[still reading...]

Just joining the discussion and I think what most have said is dead on.
Addressing dialogue:   There is an excess, but the good news is that the page count is about 25-30 pp too high anyway.  Meaningless dialogue is like meaningless characters -- they are there to be cut or cut up.

Did anybody have problems keeping track of the characters?  So many people, some who were also addressed by more than one name: Janelle or Janey, Johnny or McD, Jake or Frosty, Lisa or Lees,  Nicole or Nikki, and later Jill Jacks. Whew, a lot of J-names, too.  
And somebody named Big Boy Kusick or Kus?  He gets some character D and isn't even in the story.

I know Jeff was trying to reveal character in the bar scene, while delivering a long, slow buildup to the payoff.
But character development seems to come at the expense of story.
I agree with Mike Shelton that even after all of the bar talk, I still don't feel I knew the characters.
I know their "type" (hot girl, hot head, low self-esteem guy, etc.), but that's it.  What I learn of the characters plays little or no role later in the story.

SPOILER**
Take Jake for example.  He's the star of the barf story/the guy who took a pipe to a Mexican bouncer's head. A regular wild man.  Did anybody think that Jake would be the story's killer?  I didn't.  
I'm asking this because I have a feeling that is where Jeff (the writer) was leading us.  Creating a red herring.
Did anybody think Jake would be the hero?  I also didn't, but thought he would play a bigger part in the battle with the killer.
He's a spontaneous-combustion guy, the toughest in the group.  Remove him and you are left with the weaker characters to fend off the killer.

If Wolf Creek is a sort of model that Jeff is shooting for, there are some big differences.
Location, location, location.
A bar does not equal the Australian Outback.  A bar is a pit stop.  Driving to the craters or whatever the destination, is driving the story forward.  A bar is familiar and friendly.  The Outback is dark and mysterious.  And isolated.
There is no sense of dread or impending doom inside of a bar. So Jeff needs to get his characters out of there sooner than later.

I'll throw out some other topics and see if we can't stimulate talk.

How do you feel about the comparisons to Hostel?  A couple of differences is that Hostel is set in a foreign country, with different laws.  I thought Eli Roth established the rules of the thrill kill in his story.  Greed is at the heart of the industry.  And that the kills were in a controlled environment.  In Jeff's story, we don't have a controlled environment.

SPOILERS***
Any problem with inconsistencies in the Danny-Carlie characters?  They came off as very "Stepford," but I thought that they had killed before.  They seemed very cool and removed (plane scene for example) from the act they were about to commit.  This was their first kill, right?
If it was to be their "first kill," did it seem off-kilter that they would go after a large group of people?

If they have killed before, they wouldn't need Xavier.

I was thinking if Jeff wants to set Danny and Carlie up as potential victims, why not have Carlie pregnant.  Just enough so we see the baby bump.  When was the last time we saw a pregnant woman as a remorseless killer?

And in the flashback scene, I for one wanted Danny or Carlie to blow away Tobias.    Xavier should have slid the gun to them.  It's a test.  If they can't off a child killer, then no ski trip for them.
And I thought their reaction to seeing Tobias getting killed should be more of a rush.

*

However, my gut tells me we're being HAD.  My money is on writer Jeff Bush trying to pull the "wool over our eyes?"
There is a bigger and more dangerous picture in this tale of ski-resort slaughter.  
Xavier, as in X for the unknown.  He's the key. We should be questioning his Intent, his Motivation.  This part needs retooling.    But focusing more on the X-man's role, does the story work better?
Beware world, here comes a new breed of All-American assassins.

Dreamscale...rather than go on and on about the endless "chatter"...seems like our "chatter" has gone on and on...  I think Chris has done a great job of offering you some things to think about and consider changing as have a few others.   It would be so easy to rework your front end that really is a bit long, take out just some of the "sugar dripping sweetness" of Danny and Carlie and as Chris suggested, maybe include a few places where he isn't all "honey, Hun Bun, Danny overboard."  

I liked the Jill and Bobbie portion because I believe it brought in an element of hope for what was going on in the house....of course at first you don't get that but when things begin to happen you almost hold your breath a little when Jill says she's going to stop by.  I think maybe if Jill had a cell phone in her hand and was trying to call the police because she heard something coming from the wood shed...only problem she dials and the dogs take off...she slips in the snow, hitting her head and you see the cell phone lit in blue, snow flakes falling on it and you hear the police dispatcher say hello...hello...only Jill can't answer back.  

I too thought the Carlie up the stairway and Danny coming back from the shed was very cool...in my mind I could picture them both taking those steps at the same time.  A brilliant move in my book and a tension builder....at this point we still don't know if Carlie is in on this or not but we're sure to find out.

Megan's pre-death in the closet was really intense and there was that overshadowing seduction element.  This visual was outstanding especially when we see "Durango, Heaven on earth" go red...what an obvious opposite statement to the scene!

I too wanted Marty and Jannelle to make it...but as the movie continued I could see why they couldn't.  I think you visuals and set ups are really good.

With regard to the drinking...I have a bunch of friends that behave like that!   I have also personally taken part in my share of "Pub Crawls" while up skiing.  The fact that the situation changes is sure to sober someone up pretty fast...the human body responds differently when the adrenaline starts pumping...the jolt is equal to at least a good hot strong cup of coffee...so I think it's okay.

One question I would pose about the ending credit pieces where more of the story is revealed/explained...what if the piece where Xavier kills Tobias as the payback for not following the rules when he kills the child - were to follow the opening scenes of the Tobias killings?  By moving this piece forward there would be quick resolution to the shock of the child being killed.  Danny and Carlie could still be there...but they are off screen so you wouldn't be giving anything away.  Xavier is talking to them about the money that will be ready when they have returned from their trip to help them get their business started. Xavier says his "godlike" remarks to add to the creepy setting...we still wouldn't know who to suspect but we would have some motive for the events and build up as we would be trying to figure out "WHO."  You could then add some remarks from a charater or two to move that along.  It would make better sense in my mind at least if the information was played out this way and it would help move the screenplay forward.

I like that you are trying to do some unique things. Not that many people went to see "Mama Mia"...but I did   They had some cute scenes that ran after the movie ended and it worked really well, but this was a feel good musical that left me feeling happy.  You'd just have to make sure people sat tight to get through the credit elements so they could get the missing pieces.

Hope some of this makes sense and is helpful...

MBCgirl

Abe!!!!

Thanks for joining in this!

Your post is extremely valuable as usual. You have such a way of analyzing stories.  

I'm glad more people are joining in this. I think this is a great thing. Hopefully the writers of scripts chosen for this will appreciate the input. The scripts discussed so far have been treated with honesty, I think. Sometimes very blunt honesty so I have to thank those who've offered their scripts up for discussion. It takes some balls indeed to subject one of your "babies" to this.

I think we've probably talked enough about dialogue/chatter. What do you guys want to discuss next? Personally I'd like to talk a little about how some suspense could be added to this script. I feel that right now, That's something sorely missing in this horror script.

Quoted from MBCgirl One question I would pose about the ending credit pieces where more of the story is revealed/explained...what if the piece where Xavier kills Tobias as the payback for not following the rules when he kills the child - were to follow the opening scenes of the Tobias killings?  By moving this piece forward there would be quick resolution to the shock of the child being killed.  Danny and Carlie could still be there...but they are off screen so you wouldn't be giving anything away.

Good thought, MBCGirl. But I don't think Jeff wants to give anything away.  He wants us to believe Tobias is alive and well and ready to strike again.  If we SEE X kill Tobias at the beginning, the serial killer angle kinda goes out the window.  We would then be looking at a conspiracy or what this story is really about (?) -- programmed killings.

Oh, hey, Pia.  Yes, I think this kind of round-table discussion is meaningful.  So I'll get back on topic:  Suspense.  

Jeff needs to take more advantage of little things to build suspense.  We don't follow any of the characters to the dark regions of the bar -- like the restroom.  

What about one of the guys hitting on a bar chick and then disappearing with her?  And he can't be reached on his cell phone??

What if the power goes out temporarily?  
What if one of the bar characters is a practical joker?  Pulls a scary prank on the ladies (yeah, this is cliched but it's better than nothing).

We a get a TV report of the brutal slaying of Patterson and his family. But it comes at the airport.  Either that scene or a follow-up could be shown at the bar.  
Maybe one person in the group responds to the newscast and gets creeped out.

Enroute to the Horny Toad, we absolutely need to see a scene of the White Jeep pulled to the side of the road.  This is where Danny inserts the explosive device (to be revealed later) in the wheel.  We will assume he's having car trouble.
When Danny and Carlie arrive at the HT, they create a back story about a  vehicle forcing them off the road.  They can bring a lot of suspense to the story.
I'm thinking of something like Aja's "Haute Tension." The victim's view is really the killer's view.
Once D and C arrive at the bar, the story has to focus on them.  Now Jeff can take the dialogue in a new direction without feeling forced.

And get these characters out of the bar.  Get them on the road and on their way.  It's easier to create suspense in the dark or the unfamiliar.

I think perhaps Jeff needs to add something else to this before the bar scene, and at that a probably much shorter bar scene. Something that does a better job of setting up the story and adding some suspense. I know it sounds strange when this script is already 20-30 pages too long. But while this is a 123 page script it is nowhere near a 2 hour movie, this film would still clock in at the 80-90 minute mark. I think it is quite a fat script and once he has cut out some of the fat and reduced the bar scene there could still be 10-15 pages easily for something else. What do I mean by fat?

The dogs are running around everywhere in the snow covered  
yard now...their leashes trailing behind them.

OR

The dogs run in circles, leashes trail behind them in the snow.

There are loads of examples where Jeff writes more than it needs and while these will add plenty of pages to the script they don't add a second of time to the movie. Hence why I think this script is nowhere near as long as it first appears.

So I was thinking of what is the one thing we have here that could be a great setting for suspense, drama and some great character development and yet is something that doesn't get a look in until a single small scene at the end? The answer is ski-ing!  Could it not be possible for Danny and Carlie to first meet these guys on the slopes? Maybe they tag along with the group, maybe some dangerous run, out of bounds or something. One of the girls gets lost and they all split up looking for her. She has had an accident, maybe broken an ankle or something. Danny finds her first, a strange scene, something not quite right and for a minute we are wondering what he might do. But then someone else finds them first. We for the first time are worried about who Danny might be. But then they all head to the bar and when in the bar we see the news report from the first killing and our attention is drawn away from Danny as we expect to see the "real" killer on the scene.

What if on the way back to the house they are tailgated for a few minutes by a strange SUV that eventually gets passed them, it could turn out to be Jill coming back with the beers for Johnny, but at first it sets up a little bit of suspense.

When the killer is finally unmasked or revealed it should never be a total surprise, you should always get that "Ooh, I knew it would be him" even though you never expected it to be him. You had been given enough clues that you kick yourself for not realizing. When it just comes out of nowhere it never feels right. It is quite a knack to get as it would be too easy to be too obvious.

There are lots of things that can happen here that will add the suspense we need at the start, as has already been pointed out enough the bar scene alone just does not do it and that is where Jeff needs to concentrate. I have finished the script now and it gets much better in the second half, really sold effort. But you can make room for more drama in the first half if he gets rid of some redundant scenes (even the whole plane section) and cut the fat.

P.S. Now that I have finished it I can say that you really need to tone down Danny and Carlie at the beginning, I thought there might have been a good reason for it but no. We shouldn't dislike these people at first, maybe distrust them a little but not dislike and honestly the way they were acting and speaking to each other I couldn't stand them!

Suspense - I think the biggest part of this is we really need to feel that Danny and Carlie are going to be the victims.  DS has acknoeldged taht s what he was trying to do, and that he needs to tone Danny and Carlie down a tad.  I think that's a real esay fix.  I've said vefore, i really like the scene in the airport parking lot where she's catching snowflakes.  You should try to do that scene with as little dialogue as possible and I think it would be great.  Show us they're a great couple instead of having them tell us.

I would still have a few scenes that hint at Danny and Carlie.  I would have the scene with Blacbourn giving them the explosives that now is in the credits right in the story.  Just have him cahse them down the ramp. "You forgot something".  

Also, the shopping scene.  At this point Danny's interaction with the girl in the shop come of as awkward.  Make it a little more creepy.  
And maybe you can have him something at the store that he later kills someone with.

At the bar, I like the way you throw suspicion on Jake with the bouncer story.  I think that's something you need to expand on.  Throw more suspicion on Jake, so that when Danny and carlie get in the car with them we're screaming at the screen, "WHat are you idiots?"  

One way to do that is bring back drunk guy.  He sort of disappears once the band goes on break and we never hear from him again.  What if, while we're hearing the story about Jake beating the bouncer with a pipe, drunk guy starts dancing with the girls.  A little obnoxious, nothing they can't laugh off.  When they go to sit down, he tries to get Lisa to stay.  She pulls her arm away and goes and sits down.    When they're all back at the table together, Drunk Guy approaches Lisa again.  This time Jake is there gets pissed.  Breaks a beer bottle on the table an threatens to remove his heart with the jagged end.  And Danny breaks it up.

Then when you get them back to the house, could there be two wood shed scenes?  One That's kind of the same as the one in there now, but no one gets killed.  WE're waiting for jake to kill Danny, we're waiting, and it doesn't happen but we're still on edge.  

Once the killing gets started, it moves pretty well.  Maybe Janey should be able to hold out a longer.  Get her a little closer to getting away.  

Also, I am a bit confused about their whole motivation.  They do seem to just right in, even though this is supposed to be thier first murders.  (WHich also caused some dialogue problems for me during the killings when Danny says he's never killed anyone with a gun before.)  We know they're getting money from Xavier, but it certainly feels like a thrill kill.  OR maybe it's a combination of both?  It just seems a bit up int he air to me.

I've just finished this script so I can jump back in.

I see most people have been talking about the dialogue and time it takes to get to what the movie is about.

I still say the dialogue is good, but it just goes on too long. Pretty much what everyone else has been saying. Like I said on the script thread, I think he could have one of them killed in the bar. In the toilets, something like that? Then you've got that Danny is the bad one, you could then have a further reveal that Carlie's in on it. Just think if that happened halfway through the bar scene, the suspence would be there for the rest.

I wasn't bored by any part of the script, which is pretty good for how long it is. I just think he needs to sort out the structure and get the script more in line with the genre he was going for.

I've been busy lately, so sorry for not keeping up with this.

I have to say though that I hope Dreamscale appreciate all these amazing suggestions and discussions about this script. In my opinion this is invaluable stuff. Especially since it is for free'

GM,
I think you have provided some really fantastic suggestions. I totally agree and think it would work great.

I want to thank all of you for participating. Like I said, this is all fantastic feedback.
This is what this site is all about.

Great stuff. Love ya all!  

I totally appreciate it!

Oops, I broke my silence.  Sorry, back to being mute...

Quoted from Dreamscale I totally appreciate it! Oops, I broke my silence.  Sorry, back to being mute...

Still 2 days before you can respond...but in the meantime, Pia, 40 lashings!!!!

Hey there's some fantastic stuff in this thread.  I've been off (first and still) sick.  Then my laptop got sick. Now I might have to reinstall windows.  But enough of that.


I really agree with ste

Quoted from ste I think he could have one of them killed in the bar. In the toilets, something like that? Then you've got that Danny is the bad one, you could then have a further reveal that Carlie's in on it. Just think if that happened halfway through the bar scene, the suspence would be there for the rest.

the suspense is  needed.

And I also liked the suggestion that Danny and Carlie are asked to kill Tobias.  I don't know who made that one but it was an interesting one.

And so many other suggestions. This thread is gonna drive Jeff crazy.

Now back to my woes and miseries.

Michael  

Jeff said he likes the movie Hostel, so did anybody suspect he was creating a similar scenario?  Such as fun-loving, 20-something skiers luring an innocent couple back to a mountain hideaway.  For an evening of cards and torture.
And where Tobias might lie in wait?

I'm still a believer that Carlie should be pregnant -- even if it's only fake, ala Angelina Jolie in Taking Lives.
You can't get much more vulnerable than a woman with child.  We could foresee crazy Tobias stalking poor, pregnant Carlie in an isolated mountain home.  I think that should be the vision Jeff pushes on us.

Heck, if Tobias kills a child on page 4, use it as a prelude to what we anticipate coming on page 94.

Poor Pia...40 lashings...no way! lol  

Settle down there Michael! =))))

Quoted from MBCgirl Poor Pia...40 lashings...no way! lol   Settle down there Michael! =))))

But Pia is giving the lashings.  She takes care of my light work.

I shall never settle down!  I strive to be the Hunter S. Thompson* of screenwriters!


*Beware the bats.

Well if Pia is giving the lashings then we're all good! lol  She does keep it moving along.

If you won't settle down...then I'm going to be "ducking"  *Beware the Bats! =))))

~m~

I give as easily as I take. I enjoy both... prefer to be on the receiving end tho, but...  

I'll get back tomorrow about the ending of this script. Been a tad busy the last few days...

Missy Pia    I know this post doesn't have anything to do with Dreamscale's script...but I gotta tell you that I am sitting here chuckling at your picture and the caption...VERY FUNNY!  You could also throw in a few other things...like, "Can't touch this!"  *wink*

Love the humor as it lightens the pages!

~m~

Quoted from MBCgirl Missy Pia ...I gotta tell you that I am sitting here chuckling at your picture and the caption.

Death has been very, very good to Pia.

Quoted from MBCgirl Love the humor!...it lightens the pages!

As light as a Snowflake from Hell. Make that Durango.

ABSOLUTELY!!!!    Isn't there just a little something scary about such a delicate snowflake being cast in this "hell" of a weekend in Durango? Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

I love ski towns too...this year I'll probably be looking around a lot and wondering if killers walk among us!!! Yikes!

~m ~

Hahaha!  

Back on topic.

Sorry I'm late, but I've been busy and also got side tracked. I think I might have ADD. I'm like a T-Rex. I focus hard on something until there's some movement somewhere else and then that's all I can focus on at the moment.

Anyway, I think this thread has some really awesome suggestions for Jeff. The only thing we haven't discussed too much is the ending.

I for one enjoyed the action writing and thought that was really well done. I have to say that I was quite annoyed with the credits sequences and music coming on and off though. Don't really know or understand what the point of that was. If Jeff insists on keeping that part, I would suggest using 5 seconds rather than 20. 20 seconds is longer than most people stay in their seats after a movie is over. I can't picture any positive reaction to this at all.

The fade to white between scenes is okay to me. In fact I liked it. My only suggestion there would be to decide which scenes to put in between. Right now it seems almost random. Use it when scenes change between people or after scene changes after killings, but decide on something so there is some continuity there.

All in all I will say that I thought this script was well written. Fix the beginning half as you've heard a thousand times by now. The action at the end it good. Maybe very good even. Skip the whole credits interruption at the end and make the beginning sequence with Tobias have more of an important impact in the end. I was disappointed that he gets killed just like that.

Good job Jeff and thanks to all who participated.


PS. You can of course continue to discuss this... I just think I'm done.  

Quoted from Grandma Bear PS. You can of course continue to discuss this... I just think I'm done.

I think we're all nearing that point.  I suppose it's time that Jeff chimed in here.

As far as the ending, I think I'm in agreement with you Pia.  It makes sense in that it reveals a lot of back story and just what has gone down, but I think placing it in the credits can cause it to be lost on a lot of people.  Especially, as you said, if there's a 20 second gap.

To go one step further, I think the elements in the credits flashbacks would be better suited as part of the story.  Put them in their proper places, trim them down a little since the don't need to be expository, and slot them right in.

I wrote this as part of my review for Fade to White, but wanted to see what the Script Club thought of the suggestion.



  One thing I would like to point about Carlie and Danny’s character relationship is “True Romance”, if you haven’t seen it check it out. The leads in that are awkwardly lovey-dovey and surrounded by well it’s a Tarantino flick so go figure. But the difference I feel is that those character’s had cute quirks and relatable desires, Christen Slater is in love with a hooker and wants to free her from her pimp. I think you started with something great in that these two characters, Carlie and Danny wanted to have a baby, but that story dialogue fell to the way side, I think rather than or along with them being lovey-dovey they go into discussions about the baby how many? Names? Where to live? Whether Carlie should be a stay at home mom or go into the work place? All relatable topics that will engage the audience, and also engage the kids at the bar who would give there two cents because naturally Carlie and Danny would take different sides on each topic. This whole debate would bring value to the entire bar scene.


  Now in True Romance there isn’t much to hide, as in your story the fact that Carlie and Danny are killers, I think you may but you don’t have to reveal that they are in the premise, but if you don’t want to, it’ll still work. I think to do that this quarrel between lovers blows up at the bar where Carlie and Danny are angry with one another and this act of killing the kids, which they decide to through with, brings them closer together. A quirky bounding experience, I’d say.


  And Janelle who the couple actual likes the most, you like the most too, and who I and Shelton thought was one of the better characters out of the group. Should be the last kill, but in this scene Carlie is telling Janelle that they’ve picked out a name for the baby, and by story end that’s what they name the baby.


  I feel as though this plot line works because while the lovey-dovey dialogue has distance the audience from the characters, for the worse right now. And the act of killing distance them even more, but the lovers quarrel that all couples go through about baby name? Where to live? And so on would bridge the gap enough between the audience to make the love-dovey dialogue not a liability but a necessity for these characters with a bizarre idea of love. And the killing a necessity while evil, never the less a bonding experience that draws this couple closer.

Continued...

  I also think this would sure up the logline. I got a feeling he doesn’t want to mention who the killer is, but the thing about a log line is to mention the most interesting thing about your story and some sense of the outcome. So, that’s a difficult trick to pull off. In this case of having suspense and hiding the killer, it would be necessary to create a unique mystery or crime in place of it. But to me bigger than who did in, in this kind of story is how they did it. But I do think the idea I put forth creates very memorable characters in the light of a Bonnie and Clyde way making them the most interesting thing, enhancing anything they do.


Wolf Creek: Stranded backpackers in remote Australia fall prey to a murderous bushman who offers to fix their car, then takes them captive.


Fade to White

Current Logline: Danny and Carlie are in for a lot more than just skiing, the weekend after Christmas, in Durango, Colorado. The white of the falling snow won’t be the only color they’ll see.

With the new idea…

Fade to White

Tagline: First cut is the...

New Logline: On Holiday in Durango, Colorado, Carly and Danny strengthen their love when trying to escape with their lives, along with newly found friends, turns out to be the bonding experience of a lifetime.

Or if you wanted to clearly expose the killers... "... Carly and Danny strengthen their love after the bonding experience of a lifetime, terrorizing their newly founded friends.

I know the idea is to have Xavier be Satan, but between scenes he can be, via telephone Relationship Counselor.

Monoply for your thoughts?

Thanks for your input BLB!  

Dreamscale,
we haven't heard from you here... Was the discussion about your script helpful or....  

Are we done here?  Ready for "this me" to chime in?

Are you kidding??
I've been waiting for a week!!  

No, Pia, I wasn't kidding.  It's been up here for about 2 weeks now.  Script Club II was up for about 4 weeks, and Script Club I was up for about 7 weeks.  If you've been waiting a week for it to end, then it would have only gone for about a week.  I actually thought the discussion would turn to something else...maybe even something positive.  The vast majority of comments have all been about dialogue, and actually very little about the actual dialogue itself, but more so that there was just way too much and that the banter was meaningless.

No problem though, this has been invaluable as several commented on.  I do appreciate the feedback from all who participated very much.  I'll go over everything now and write some of my own feedback to the feedback I've recieved.

Thanks again to all who participated here.  It has been very enlightening and I appreciate the time you spent on reading my script and giving your comments.

I think you're attributing your ability to chime in to the discussion actually being over, which isn't the case.

The discussion can go on as long as people participate in it, only now you're free to respond at will.

Jeff,

I want it to be positive for you.
Tell us something you would like for us to discuss.
Something you feel you really would like to have feedback on.

If I should chime in now and respond to comments, that's totally cool...I'd love to.

If there's more to discuss, that's also totally cool.

If you're asking what I'd like to hear about, it would be some positives.  I may be in the vast minority on this, but I feel there are so many positive aspects to my script...so many things that work well, are unique, well concieved, and powerful.  You know, after being beaten down for awhile, it's always nice to get lifted back up and hear some positive things.

I don't want to sound like I'm whining or anything, cause as I've said again and again, this is a truly great resource, and good or bad, everything is being taken in and thought about.

So...you guys tell me...should I start responding to earlier comments (like I have been on the regular thread), or should I hold back a bit?

Start responding now.  It will get the conversation going again.

Right on.  Let me gather my thoughts, and I'll jump in.

I'm willing to explore other areas of Jeff's script.

I personally liked the Satan aspect, but wanted to see more.  Or at least feel his "presence"  earlier in the script.
If the end flashback of Xavier/Satan is removed from the story, would anybody guess he was behind the murders?

Another matter that Jeff can clarify, is the service Xavier provides to Tobias, Carlie and Danny one of "only" materialistic gain?  Satan should offer something no mortal man could give.

Satan, huh?  OK.  So why does Satan care if children are killed?

Quoted from bert Satan, huh?  OK.  So why does Satan care if children are killed?

Hey, Bert.  This is a question I asked Jeff in an earlier post.  It's all about consistency.  Satan shouldn't care.  I suggested that Tobias should back away from killing the little boy and thus, Satan punishes him.
But Jeff has set up "rules" and maybe he has a valid reason for Satan not killing kids. But the rules have to be very clear to the viewer.  Should be interesting to read his reply.

I think that if X is Satan then it has to be clear to the reader and viewer that this is the character we are dealing with.  There can be the story of X in the sequel but any Satanic reveal about this character should happen in this script.  

Quoted from mcornetto I think that if X is Satan then it has to be clear to the reader and viewer that this is the character we are dealing with.  There can be the story of X in the sequel but any Satanic reveal about this character should happen in this script.

I absolutely agree with you, Mike. It seems Jeff wants to explain stuff in the sequel, but he really has to make the story work here and now.

Hey, if you want positive feedback, show your screenplay to your mommy!  She'll tell you how great it is, and how smart and handsome you are too boot!    

Seriously though, take this criticism in the spirit that it's given.  Other than Shelton, who sleeps on large piles of money every night with beautiful supermodels, we're all struggling screenwriters just trying to get something written and written well.  Nobody here is trying to attack you, or belittle you.  We're just trying to help you out by pointing out the aspects of your screenplay that need to be worked on a little more.

And I think you have gotten some real positive feedback on the second half of the script.  People really enjoy the second half of the script and have said so repeatedly!  

Quoted from seamus19382 Other than Shelton, who sleeps on large piles of money every night with beautiful supermodels, we're all struggling screenwriters just trying to get something written and written well.

If only that were true.  The first part, I mean.  The second part is very true.

I tried that Seamus, but she dislikes profanity, vulgar and unbeautiful things, and mostly, violence.  Same with my sister.  I could just read it myself again and gvie myself a few slaps on the back I guess.

That's why I don't show my husband anything I write. He only likes nice movies with nice people doing what's right. I personally prefer "bad" movies with bad people doing what's bad.

If I did show him something "nice" he would LOVE it even if it sucked really really bad. I just can't do anything wrong in his eyes.  

  This is why I had a problem with the logline because it was vague, and I felt it was clear that the writer didn’t want to give away secrets, big idea or what have you and even that would have been fine but it my fear was that it would continue into the story. In the script it’s too hidden that even this story is a vague to the story he really wants to tell which is suppose to be in the sequel.


  And I do like parts of the story, like kill where Danny gets one of the girls to come out to the shed with him, and we the audience know that Danny has killed the person that he claims wants to see her, I’m blanking on the names here. But when the get to the shed and Danny and the girl try to sneak up on the guy, who’s dead, really Danny is sneaking up on the girl this all great subtext. The description part read quickly, the imagery was great with the door opening.


  The scene where the lady smashes into the rock was great because she was a casualty of the elements, which I always like, rather than another victim of homicide.


  Again when Abe suggest that Dream puts the Satan, along with the more of rules in the story, I’m sure that either Dream doesn’t want to in order to keep this whole “what’s going on” atmosphere or he believe he has put in a enough things that we should get it and he’s figuring out that he hasn’t which will be valuable to him. It’s what getting reviewed is about, are you as the writer conveying what you want in your story, and in this case of Satan it’s not getting through.


I got a question for you guys, how much do you think logline matters when it comes to trying to sell a script? And, do you think you tell a lot about the script and its writer based on the logline?

I ask because I hear a lot about prodcuers or agents or what ever how decide within 1 to 10 pages whether the stories any good. If the first page is good, read the next ten if that's good read the next 20, if that's good commit and read the whole thing.

About the logline. I guess it is rather weak and from what I understand they are really important. Some people, like Phil for example has said many times that he won't read a script if the logline is not interesting to him. Personally, I NEVER look at them. I do however read one page, then ten and then 20 and so on if I like what I'm reading.

This logline seems a bit clunky to me, but I rather have a clunky one than one that gives too much away.

And about the positive parts, I too liked the script once they got to the house. The killing of the girl in the shed was the best one I think. The other killing happened a little too quick. Idon't think it would be that hard though to add some suspense before each one.

Hey you guys, thanks so much for keeping this going and moving on to other things.  Totally appreciate it!

Sorry for not jumping in like I said I would but I've had a few things going on, and in an hour I've got my big Fantasy Football draft, which will take most of the day.  I'll comment on recent discussion tomorrow, and if things slow down, I'll give my general comments as well, other wise, I'll hold off a bit.

Thanks again!

OK, I'm back...big weekend of football.  I'll respond to recent comments and see if this thread continues on or slows down.  When it's all done, I will comment on everything.

First new subject seems to involve Xavier's limited and late reveal.  As a few have commented correctly, I wanted to leave things very vague and ambiguous, both in general and with X.  I think with visuals, everyone would realize that X isn't a normal guy, and would start to question just who or what he really is, which is the idea I'm going for.  I don't think things always need to be so cut and dry, and when they're not, it opens things up for discussion and thought.  I think Carlie will be asked to kill Tobias, as someone else brought up also, which will make more sense when Danny asks for the gun in the Schaefer house, because he's never killed anyone with a gun before.

By revealing X in the missing scenes section, I'm basically trying to go for another surprise, twist, and after the fact revelation.  I think it's a good way to end with a question mark, and also opens things up for the sequel.  If you look at Hostel, for instance, in the original, you never knew what the reasoning was for what was going on at all, but in Hostel 2, the inner workings were revealed.  Even the original Saw ended with what turned out to be the real story of the entire franchise.

So basically, I personally really like the late reveal and ambiguity of X and what he is, as well as what he has to do with the story.

As for "the rules" of the story and what's in it for Tobias, Danny, and Carlie?  Again, although I know what the answers are, at this point, I want my audience guessing, so to speak.  As far as I'm concerned, these issues aren't important in this story.  This story is about Danny and Carlie's killing spree.  The real story going on behind the scenes is only hinted at, and brought up very late in the game.

Earlier, I had some suggestions from people that I should say what Tobias was getting out of his killing spree in Steamboat, but I decided against it, as I didn't think it was at all vital to this story.  I still feel that way, and only hinted at the funding of Danny's office as "payment" for their services.

As Bee said, I definitely do not want to introduce X earlier or reveal anything else, as I am definitely going for the "what's going on here" atmosphere.  Based on what I'm getting back, I think it actually works because people seem genuinely upset about how slow the first 1/3 - 1/2 of the script is (after the opening scene), which in a strange way, is what I wanted, assuming the payoff was worth the entire ride.  Most seem to really like the 2nd half, once things get going, and this to me says that nothing else really needs to be revealed earlier.  I think people should try to take this (and everything else for that matter) for what it is, and that's a fun, wild ride with a bunch of brutal kills.

I do plan on making some changes, 1 being that I think I reveal Danny's dark side much earlier, and have him kill his first hapless victim before he gets to the bar (while Carlie's shopping), so once everyone's introduced, the tension should be higher because you know there's a killer in the midst.

What do you think about that idea?

I like that idea. Keep us from knowing that Carlie is in on it too so we worry about her as well.

Cool, thanks Pia.  I've been thinking about this for awhile, and I think I not only like it, but I think it will work and add alot of extra tension as well.  Also, once Danny is introduced as a killer, I can have his actions and dialogue vary quite a bit from where they are now.

Someone suggested earlier in here that when Carlie tells the group that she did a good job with Danny and that he's a good guy, and then asks Danny, "Aren't you?", he shoudl respond with something like, "Most of the time".  I think thsi would work really well if we all know that danny isn't such a good guy after all.

I sorta like that idea, Dreamscale, but I think it would definitely lessen the tension in the shed scene later on.

I think you should include an extra character during the bar scene. When they step into some private area of the bar (outside for a smoke, restroom, maybe a storage room because they work at the bar), someone unknown approaches this person and kills them while the others are oblivious.

That way, you still establish there is a killer in the bar (and we're still suspecting the guy from the beginning, not Danny). It also keeps the shed scene effective and surprising.

But it's your script, man. You're the director at this point, and I'm just happy you're gonna put some action in where it's needed.

Yeah Chris, I definitely hear ya in that everything will be different if I do reveal Danny earlier, and you're right on in that the shed scene will have a much different vibe.  I've been thinking about this for awhile now and most of the time, I think it will work better, but others I go back to my original thinking and like the fact that the shed scene comes as a complete surprise.

By having a kill and not showing the identity of the killer, I feel like it will come off as every other mystery slasher out there, and I don't like that, but it would make you think that Tobias is back in town.

I'll keep toying with it and make a decision soon.

Thanks for your input!

I disagree Sham.
Because we know what he is capable of, we would be on the edge of ours seats hoping she gets away...  

Ah, the beauty of personal opinion, and a perfect example of a point I've been wanting to bring up.

I think in literally every single movie that I've seen (and know well), there are many instances of things that I would have changed, added, removed, etc.  I bet it's the same way with each and every viewer, at least those that take some time and actually think about what they saw.  There's just no way around this.

It comes down to what the writer decides to do (and yes, the director as well!), and whether it works or not is based on the sum of all the parts.  It's very rare, for me at least, when a single scene or the like will ruin an otherwise solid effort.  Yeah, there is that rare occasion when something is just so "wrong" that it does decide the fate of the entire project, bot not usually.

It's funny how different people feel completely different about the same thing, as in movies, music, books, anything.  It's literally impossible to please everyone all the time, but in understanding that, it makes perfect sense.

Sorry people!  I've been absent for a while...so I have just read through the current threads to see where we are.

I understand what Dreamscale is saying, "That everyone has a different opinion."  We all do...and I suppose there is good reason to keep Tobias as suspect by adding in an earlier surprise killing so that when Danny walks to the shed for the first kill the viewer is completely surprised....on the other hand...if they knew he did the earlier kill they might be onthe edge of their seat, holding their breath knowing that something is going to happen.  It's a double edged sword for sure.

I think what I get from Carlie and Danny is that there is monetary gain...the kids aren't designated for the kill but randomly picked.  What I guess I am trying to wrap my mind around is that this is the first time they have killed anyone and they are doing it for Danny's practice...so money.  Even though the end result is what is driving them...I think most people would have doubts or question themselves and I think there are ways that could be written in without giving anything away....like Dreamscale wrote in when they blew the tire - which is in the credit section.

Maybe Danny could add the fact that he's not really that ruthless and has his reasons for killing them...

There are a number of things I really like about the script.  I like Dreamscales ability to "write" in a way that I could literally visualize the scenes.  I also liked the way he brought one piece together with the next...like the kids in the second car driving by the cop while he was checking out Danny and Carlie's car in the road....the use of the snow flakes to bring us to a new scene and Danny walking into the house as Carlie is walking up the steps as if in unison.

I also liked the Jill and Bobbie aspect...it adds suspense from afar and hope for the people that are in the house...will she fall victim...only to the rock/snow...and the dogs added some pay back to Danny when he came out of the shed.

My favorite scene is when Carlie steps into the closet with Meg.  At that point we still don't know that Carlie is in on anything and the insinuation of a female attraction here is written extremely well...precise with the slow teasing moment of eye contact! GREAT JOB! *wink*  

I think Dreamscale is begging for help with the logline....so I feel we should spend some time on that to see if we can help him nail it down.

I too think that there has been a lot of positive input written here that should help smooth the script out...which should help Dreamscale when it gets into the hands of an agent...

Dream a little dream!!

~morgan

I do agree that an early kill before D/C get to the bar is a Must.

I can go either way on the reveal of Danny.  It's all dependent on your execution, Jeff.
However ---  Revealing Danny's dark side early, while keeping us in the dark about Carlie's nature, would definitely be unique.
Can you recall any films in which one killer is revealed Early and the partner (killer) is kept under wraps?
I think I've seen variations on this in police/killer thrillers in which a member of the police might be in on the murders -- but that is a different setup.  
Anyway, if you reveal Danny early, I'm for it.  I like the twist.

One thing I thought would be cool, was to see somebody else (unidentifiable) in the house, when Tobias wipes out the Patterson family.  This mysterious person could be smoking a cigarette off to the side.  There is no action on this individual's part, other than to observe.
This could be X.  
We would then wonder if Tobias has a partner...  and later, if that partner would be Danny.

Going back to Danny and Carlie,  if we know Danny's a killer early on, his dialogue with Carlie would have a different Edge.  
Could be good for the script, too, since most of us don't like the lovey-dovey stuff.

I still think if Carlie's pregnant it works well with her being viewed as vulnerable.  She could be at the store shopping for baby stuff, while Danny's out and about on his killing thing.

Anyway you handle it, I'm just in favor of ratcheting the tension earlier.  And since kills/action is your strong suit, Jeff, we could be in for some very energized grue.

Thanks for the input Abe.

I'm actually looking at this right now.  The kill would start on page 12 and go into 13, so it would be quite early IMO.  To reveal it's Danny doing the killing or keep it as an unidentified killer is still up in the air with me.  I see pluses and minuses with each.  I will do away with the cat scene or incorporate the kill into that scene, and then have Danny walking away singing "Sweet Home Alabama".  If he goes for an onscreen kill, that singing scene just may be alot more powerful...and creepy.

Although I like your idea of having a mysterious, unseen character observe the Patterson kills, I don't like it because it just doesn't really work or make sense, because the Pattersons are a random target, and no one would be able to infiltrate their house prior to Tobias making his entrance.  I also think it kinda clutters things up and makes things a bit too murky.

As for Carlie being prego, I don't like it, because it changes what she is capable of in terms of her kills.  It also does away with the baby talk she has with Danny early on, which, for me at least, works well and paints them as a nice loving couple.

Question for ya, though...after all you've heard now about Xavier and his late reveal, do you think it's OK as is?  What I'm getting at is, for me, the idea was just to throw out 1 more late reveal and surprise adn leave it very ambiguous so each viewer can draw their own conclusion.

Let me know and thanks again for all your great input and ideas.

Quoted from Dreamscale The kill would start on page 12 and go into 13, so it would be quite early IMO.  To reveal it's Danny doing the killing or keep it as an unidentified killer is still up in the air with me.  I see pluses and minuses with each.  I will do away with the cat scene or incorporate the kill into that scene, and then have Danny walking away singing "Sweet Home Alabama".  If he goes for an onscreen kill, that singing scene just may be alot more powerful...and creepy.

Yeah, the singing could give a creepy effect.  Makes me think of "The Lady in White," in which the killer whistles a cute little tune, identifying him as the murderer.   Not sure if Danny is supposed to sing that tune again, but that's your call.

Quoted from Dreamscale Although I like your idea of having a mysterious, unseen character observe the Patterson kills, I don't like it because it just doesn't really work or make sense, because the Pattersons are a random target, and no one would be able to infiltrate their house prior to Tobias making his entrance.  I also think it kinda clutters things up and makes things a bit too murky.

This makes as much sense as Satan being behind the killings.  Satan or some evil entity could be anywhere at any time.  Barriers are nothing to such a being.  That's what separates him from mortals.  
I thought if we see X's presence in the Patterson killing, it would give us a hint of Satan's presence early in the story.   We the audience would then go back and say, Ah, that was Xavier.  Just a thought.

Quoted from Dreamscale As for Carlie being prego, I don't like it, because it changes what she is capable of in terms of her kills.  It also does away with the baby talk she has with Danny early on, which, for me at least, works well and paints them as a nice loving couple.

Carlie doesn't have to be that pregnant.  It shouldn't interfere with her ability to kill.  I was thinking how unique Marge was in "Fargo."  She was way pregnant and was still doing her job.  HAHA.  As for painting "them as a nice, loving couple," well isn't that the whole point?  We're supposed to think they're lovey dovey, so when they go Serial, it's a surprise.  Hmmm....

Quoted from Dreamscale Question for ya, though...after all you've heard now about Xavier and his late reveal, do you think it's OK as is?  What I'm getting at is, for me, the idea was just to throw out 1 more late reveal and surprise adn leave it very ambiguous so each viewer can draw their own conclusion.

Well, this goes back to having X in the house when Tobias murders the Pattersons.  I'm for a little hint that X is in the story before we get to the rewind stuff.  The little clever hint (you can think of something better, perhaps) allows the viewer to trace back and search for the clue.  That's always cool.
It will make for a more satisfying journey.
As I've said before, I like the X character.  I will goes as far as to say X makes this story for me.  I just want to know in a subtle way, that he is part of the story before his reveal at the end.

Anyway, it's shaping up pretty good.  By adding the early kill, I think you're on the right track.  Like I said, you do butchery pretty good, so I look forward to some nasty blood-letting before we get to the Schaefer house.

Danny's definitely a music lover.  You may recall that he whistled "Somehwere over the Rainbow" after kiiling both Jake and Lisa, which I thought was pretty cool and creepy at the same time.  He also loves Edguy and isn't too crazy about Buck Cherry.

As for Xavier having the ability to be anywhere and without boundaries, I don't agree.  Each movie (or book, whatever) has the ability to paint such beings, creatures, what have you, with it's own traits, powers, etc.  The Devil has taken on quite a few different  personnas over the years, and each has it's own rules, so to speak.  Xavier definitey has powers and abilities that are far from mere mortals, but in my vision, he is pretty much bound by human/mortal characteristics and limitations.

I really want this script and concept to be taken for what it is, and that's an exercise in killing.  I don't want this to be supernatural in any way, until the very end. I see the sequel as having alot more supernatural themes and goings ons.  In this one, the story is Danny and Carlie on a killing spree.  I wanted to give a "why are they doing this" rationale in the end that is both surprisingly and ambiguous, so that each viewer can draw their own conclusions.  And then, in the sequel, bring in the true revelatrions and even some crazy evil stuff as well.

I can definitely see your point on Carlie being prego, but I don't think I'm going to go that route.  If she was prego, she wouldn't be able to drink the way she does and she wouldn't be as goofy, cause she'd be sober.  It would take away a few scenes in which she's partying, and I like those scenes cause I feel it gives some light hearted humor right before things get ugly.

Abe, as I've said before, I totally appreciate your comments. You're full of great ideas, and you relate those ideas in a very positive way, so that the writer really cares and thinks about what you've said.

Do you have a script I could read of yours?  I definitely owe you that and would be happy to help in any way I could.

[quote=Abe_from_LA]
This makes as much sense as Satan being behind the killings.  Satan or some evil entity could be anywhere at any time.  Barriers are nothing to such a being.  That's what separates him from mortals.  
I thought if we see X's presence in the Patterson killing, it would give us a hint of Satan's presence early in the story.   We the audience would then go back and say, Ah, that was Xavier.  Just a thought.

I'm for a little hint that X is in the story before we get to the rewind stuff.  The little clever hint (you can think of something better, perhaps) allows the viewer to trace back and search for the clue.  That's always cool.
It will make for a more satisfying journey.
As I've said before, I like the X character.  I will goes as far as to say X makes this story for me.  I just want to know in a subtle way, that he is part of the story before his reveal at the end.

Hi All -

I like the dialogue going on between Abe and DS.  Somehow I feel that the overall story would be better "formed" with a little of the "why" with mysterious Mr. X.  I too believe he is a very dominant part of this script and sounds like he will hold a more prominent place and explanation in the sequel.

An evil entity is just that...whether he is Satan or just demonic...I think with the fact that DS is going for reality without moving into the "fictional" aspects....it is important to keep Mr. X "real."  So to me he is just a very evil, corrupt, person displaying a demonic persona who's mind and soul have been sold out.  Many of the most facinating and terrifying real stories we have seen have been real people who's minds have twisted their reality with the web of religious evil aspirations...people wanting to be like God...professing they are...it's horrifying!  So Mr. X to me is someone who has taken that on in his head...he has satistfied the lust of the flesh in controlling others by having them agree to sell their souls by taking the lives of innocent people for money or whatever their "greed" is.  I don 't know where DS wants to go in his Sequel...but me being who I am...I would even like Carlie and Dan to come back in the story as people who wrestled with their decision, after the fact - and have to somehow make it right...in their effort to regain their souls...X becomes the ultimate target...but maybe that's sequel #3 =)))  

I know I may sound redundant...but it seems the "why" is an important aspect to most who have read Fade to White and responed here.  Most feel it needs to be somehow written in so that things come together better.  Right now I think maybe it is a bit of a "gray" area as to that "why.".  Dreamscale maybe you can run us through a few of your thoughts that run a little deeper on this topic.  

I do understand that you want X's involvement to have more of a "shadow" on the overall story...but could it be written in with more insight without giving everything away.  I think I mentioned on one of my earlier posts (before you could respond) a while back that some additional aspects could be revealed with X talking to someone...it could even be on the phone, where he is in the shadows...his narly fingernails wrapped around the phone and cigar smoke curling in his dark study...speaking in a way that gives away his dark soul and his ability to manipulate the lives of humans who are "beneath" him...his business is becoming their God...and their payment is written in the blood of those who sell their souls by taking lives.

Because he is eveil/eccentric...I can understand that he can make his own rules about playing his game his way...so Tobias is killed for killing a child...did he care about the child...not at all...but he did care that someone didn't follow his rules...that's the evilness of the man...Mr. X...at least how I see it.  

I agree with Abe...X is the story...he brings the pupose and answers the "why's."  For instance...just like in the recent Batman - the story of the Joker is revealed in more detail...but he has always been a part of the "Batman" story and plot...without him there was really no story...there had to be an evil, sinister catalyst for people to "buy in."  X can have the same weight with your screenplay and set up all that takes place... Overall he is a skilled "puppet master" who derails people's lives while giving them what they want therefore it lays the blame on their own concience and the blood they spill will never Fade to White...those "pictures" will always be in their heads festering...and that to me is terrifying.

Hope some of this helps...

MBCgirl
P.S.  I also think if X were more a part of establishing the story...there might be a better logline in there too!

P.S.S.  Maybe on the phone he is getting the report of the Tobias killings and has some evil things to say that add to the thickening of the plot...

Logline idea absed on above mentions.  Durango is also called Purgatory and I looked up some info on it and this is what I got:  Sin and final glorification are utterly incompatible. Therefore, between the sinfulness of this life and the glories of heaven, we must be made pure. Between death and glory there is a purification.

Thus, the Catechism of the Catholic Church states: "All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. The Church gives the name purgatory to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned" (CCC 1030–1).

The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament .

So if X is the evil soul...maybe he has a twisted belief that he offers his own form of purgatory to those who are killed...or maybe to those who perform the killings...

The logline:

Up for a fantastic weekend of skiing in the snow white mountains of Purgatory, Colorado, Dan and Carlie meet up with Jake and Lisa and their entourage of friends at the Horny Toad Bar. Things turn deadly when the rules of the game begin...who will survive and who controls the strings...in "Fade to White."

I see how you want this to play out, Jeff, so I'm redirecting my perspective.  Because you are not saying that X is Satan, you can flex the rules.  It will be an interpretation thing, and as MBCGirl said, the viewer can perceive him as Satan or an evil man --  at least in this story.
And since X's powers and identity will be in the next script, I can see that you don't want to make him the focus of "Fade."  I do agree that once X becomes prominent in the story line, interest will probably shift his way.  Thus, I would probably like the sequel better.  X marks the spot.

Quoted from Dreamscale In this one, the story is Danny and Carlie on a killing spree.  I wanted to give a "why are they doing this" rationale in the end that is both surprisingly and ambiguous, so that each viewer can draw their own conclusions.  And then, in the sequel, bring in the true revelations and even some crazy evil stuff as well.

How do you pitch this?  If somebody were to question you, how do you adequately give a synopsis of Fade without the story sounding like a garden-variety kill fest?  Maybe we should re-explore the logline and come up with a good pitch, so Jeff can be prepared for whatever questions a producer or exec. will throw at him.
Jeff, do you have a new logline?  How about a synopsis?
Does anybody want to give this a go?
Trying to keep the conversation going here.

Quoted from Dreamscale Do you have a script I could read of yours?  I definitely owe you that and would be happy to help in any way I could.

Working on a short, Jeff.  Will let you know when it's done.  Thanks.

I think that's a good idea Abe. My problem is I really really suck at loglines and I've never written a synopsis... Take too much concentration.  

MBCgirl,

I liked your logline!!  I think it's a good start. Maybe it can get tightened just a wee bit. But it's definitely a good start.