Quoted from Reef Dreamer ps - whilst i wouldn't have voted for Trump, i don't agree with the protests - its democracy, and thats the way it goes IMO

I agreed with you up until that.

Peaceful protests are the essence of democracy, and it's a Constitutional right. If Trump follows through on half of what he promised, I hope those protests continue until November 2020.

Let's not forget, Hillary received more votes than Trump.

Quoted from Bogey I agreed with you up until that. Peaceful protests are the essence of democracy, and it's a Constitutional right. If Trump follows through on half of what he promised, I hope those protests continue until November 2020. Let's not forget, Hillary received more votes than Trump.

some fair words - but we must also accept the will of the people. if that proves wrong then that's the chance for the next candiate

don't tell me someone in the democrat party is now very happy and excited about the next time???

Had to smile today when I watched the news and read the Vatican statement about Trump's election: 'We pray god may enlighten him'. Sounds like a tough job, if you ask me. Didn't work for Hitler either. Let's hope there are reasonable people in the background of the administration who will stop him if necessary.

All I can say is Europe is shocked by that result. Not just politicians or celebrities - I mean people at the supermarket checkout counter speaking to each other about the probability of World War 3. Witnessed that exact discussion of an old woman with the cashier this morning. While that might be somewhat over the top, I think what is shocking most people here is how this could happen in the USA. The leading democracy in the world.

After Trump's video, I thought the election would be boring, because no sane person could vote this man into office any more. I guess my picture of America was kind of wrong...

Quoted from Reef Dreamer ps - whilst i wouldn't have voted for Trump, i don't agree with the protests - its democracy, and thats the way it goes IMO

I'm also from the other side of the pond but I also was with you until that last line.

More people voted for Clinton than Trump, to me a true democracy and the will of the people is if a candidate wins by a majority. Trump didn't, he won by the outdated and flawed Electoral College system. BTW - This was the same system that got Bush in last time.  

Interestingly enough, Trump has very recently deleted a tweet he made on November 7, 2012 - "The phoney electoral college made a laughing stock out of our nation. The Loser one!" Luckily it can still be found in archives.

Also, what the protesters are doing is exercising their first amendment rights:

Amendment I. Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Of course if they do not protest peacefully, I do not agree with that!

What is very telling is how Trump will react to such protests once he's President. If you go to his Twitter account and expect him to be responding in a presidential way, you are in for a disappointment. This morning he tweeted, "Just had a very open and successful presidential election. Now professional protesters, incited by the media, are protesting. Very unfair."

Re the right to protest after a vote, well that shows it's a free country, so of course could happen. I suppose, whilst I don't support trump, I feel the voting system resulted in his election and to a degree that should be honoured and respected.

Over in the U.K. We can also have the situation where more vote for a party but get less seats. There are arguments for and against the voting system, but that's a different matter.

I also seem to have upset some folk with reference to previous wars. I certainty didn't mean to offend, I was merely reflecting on the pro's and con's of supposed strong leaders. The debate I was having within myself was that strong leadership can both be positive in terms of facing threats, but can also lead to confrontation when none was required. I wonder what Trump will be?

Anyway, best of luck with you new president.

Let's not go with non-relevant stats.

Recessions are a part of the economy. They are rarely caused by short term policy, but are a result of cyclical forces. I believe the average now is every 7 years. So a recession is likely in the next couple years, certainly in the next four, and would have happened whoever was President. When it does, satisfied liberals will go on about "Trump recession".

We had a recession at the end of 1992, and it was ending just as Clinton took office. He was fortunate that the next recession did not occur until 2000, just as he was leaving office. This skews his numbers. He also benefited from the dotcom boom. And the faulty accounting scandal that erupted, which was not Clinton's fault but happened on his watch, delayed a likely recession, moving it from 1998 to 2000.

Bush had the market collapse of 2008. While actions by Clinton and then Bush may have contributed to that collapse, as well as actions or inactions by the Democrat Congress, the reality is that these things are the result of larger forces that are difficult to predict or manage. But that recession skews the numbers.

Same with the Obama "jobs added". Even amateur economists understand that the jobs he added were simply a recovery from the collapse. This recovery was the weakest in the post-WWII era. The jobs added were largely part time.

Using stats without context is about as useful as saying the world is cooling because December is colder than November.

There are plenty of reasons to think Trump will screw this up. There are also plenty of reasons to think the existing Bush/Obama order screwed things up, or at least was ineffective. For example, I think even Obama understands that it would help the US to lower the business tax rate but get rid of loopholes, thereby encouraging businesses to bring their cash back to the US. But Obama could never pull that off politically, his base would never have forgiven him. And Bush had a Democrat Congress for the most part. Trump might actually have the strength to get this done.

If the economy soars at 4% growth and avoids the almost inevtiable recession, Trump will have pulled off a miracle and will deserve credit.

Quoted from leitskev If the economy soars at 4% growth and avoids the almost inevtiable recession, Trump will have pulled off a miracle and will deserve credit.

And if pigs could fly...

We will likely never see 4% growth again in our lifetime. The rest of the world has advanced and will continue to advance in a way that they're no longer dependent on US goods and services to the extent they were in the past.

Trump promised 4% growth, and recited China's 9% growth as a benchmark - another myth. They're building high rises en mass in China that go 100% unoccupied. And if he starts a trade war with them, good night. We'll have a recession on steroids.

Trump wouldn't bother me as much if I thought he'd surround himself with competent, reasonable experts. But his inner circle of the White House has firmly crystallized - Trump, Rudy Guliani, Newt Gingrich, and Jeff Sessions. Four of the most angry old caucasion men you'll ever find.

Nothing wrong with being angry and old, ask Jeff!

Hey, you might be right that 4% is impossible.

But I am 50 years old. I remember the late 70s and early 80s. Economists also said then that this kind of growth was no longer possible. The economy was in a unique doldrums that was worse than a mere recession, where we had low growth and high inflation(stagflation).

But Reagan did indeed turn it around, and record growth resulted.

And Clinton kept most of Reaganomics in place, which worked.

Can Trump achieve this? Well, if he does, by your own words here, you will have to call that a success won't you?

I suspect you won't. I've seen the movie before. Reagan did the impossible, but even now liberals like my friends Rick and Andrew still refuse to admit it.

Quoted from leitskev Can Trump achieve this? Well, if he does, by your own words here, you will have to call that a success won't you? I suspect you won't. I've seen the movie before. Reagan did the impossible, but even now liberals like my friends Rick and Andrew still refuse to admit it.

I will 100% call it a success if he achieves 4% growth, provided that growth is materially manifested in the growth of the middle class, not just the upper 5%. I know I'll never be a Trump supporter because of his positions related to a woman's right to choose, climate change, and marriage equality, but if he turns the economy in a better direction, I will happily give him credit.

Excellent, your honesty is refreshing.

Would you say that Obama's 2% growth has benefited all classes? Or mostly the wealthy?

Quoted from leitskev Excellent, your honesty is refreshing. Would you say that Obama's 2% growth has benefited all classes? Or mostly the wealthy?

As far as I can see, mostly the wealthy. The stock market has done great, but only the wealthy generally benefit from that in a big way. Middle class investors see some steady returns for their nest eggs, but lets face it, only the wealthy insiders really kill it in the stock market.

I do think Obama has been hamstrung by Congress in some of his economic initiatives. He's had an infrastructure growth bill for years that the GOP has refused to pass, but now that Trump is President, it's all of a sudden a good idea to them.

He passed a trillion dollar stimulus bill that was supposed to create "shovel ready jobs". That turned out to be, well let's be frank, a lie. Few constructions jobs were created. Why would anyone then give him a second chance?

Quoted from leitskev He passed a trillion dollar stimulus bill that was supposed to create "shovel ready jobs". That turned out to be, well let's be frank, a lie. Few constructions jobs were created. Why would anyone then give him a second chance?

Yeah, I recall the "shovel ready" bill, but I also recall the money being tied up in Congress and red tape. Easy to qualify for, tough to receive.

As far as the second chance at an infrastructure bill, you have a valid point, but what makes you think an infrastructure bill will be better administered under Trump than Obama? It will likely be the same bureaucrats overseeing the money.

Anyway, I'm not going to defend Obama's economic policies, because I think his real worth as a President was bringing calm and reassurance to a world thrown into chaos by W, Cheney, and Rumsfeld. The world really did appreciate him for that. People blame him for withdrawing troops from Iraq and opening the territory for ISIS, but the timing of those troop withdrawal measures were set by W, not Obama - he just followed what the previous administration ordered a year earlier.

The money was not tied up in Congress at all. Once a bill passes, the money is there for him to spend.

But they spent it by giving money to states so they could avoid laying off public employees, like teachers. That might be a worthwhile thing, but it had nothing to do with shovel ready jobs.

I suspect there's no such thing as shovel ready jobs. Let's say you decide to rebuild a bridge. That takes years to plan and get through local red tape.

Would it be better under Trump? Look, Trump was far from my first choice. I doubt he can pull these things off too. But maybe he can get around the unions and bureaucratic red tape, who knows.

The problem comes down to institutional corruption. Same applies to education. W Bush passed the biggest spending bill in history for schools. But once that money gets through the unions and the bureaucracy, there's little left for students.

That's what I fear happens with infrastructure spending. 90% of it would get wasted.

Same thing happened with levy building in New Orleans. The fed govt was giving them billions for decades. By the corrupt bureaucracy wasted the money, so when the inevitable storm came, they weren't ready.

Dems always cry "greed!" when schools or projects run out of money. But the fact is...and I mean fact...that most of the money gets wasted by their corrupt cronies. They know they can always cry for more..."it's for the children!"

As for bringing calm and reassurance to the world...it's a mess! ISIS ran wild, Russia is invading countries and on the brink of nuclear war, China is building islands off the Philippines and seizing international ocean lanes, not to mention Brexit...my God, it's a mess. Not all of it is Obama's fault, but much of it is. Oh, and we lost Libya and Afghanistan too.