I just hope he changes the health care system because I'm tired of being fined for not having insurance that supports the people with no job while I cannot use it because my deductible is outrageous. So I'm basically paying 'for' obamacare. It's just another hidden tax. I voted for T because he is not the establishment. I wanted something new. I know he's got his issues but I felt out of the choices...he was the only choice. I do believe that he's not as conservative as he seemed to most voters. So maybe he will be a little like Johnson(views/outlook) but keep us a little safer. Who knows. He could be the biggest disaster this country has seen but he could be the best since Reagan. No way to tell yet. *crossing fingers* and hoping I do not get fined this year for canceling my no-good health insurance.

I must admit I don't understand Obamacare. I thought in principle it was a good thing, in that it helps more people (especially lower income families) get affordable health care. Is that not the case?

Here in the UK, part of everyone's taxes pay to fund the National Health Service, so every citizen is entitled to full health care. I have no problems with part of my earnings going into funding such a venture, as it protects my family as well as everyone else. However, with so many government cuts in spending, a lot of people fear the NHS may be privatized, if so we may see insurance schemes similar to the US. That will be a concern if it happens.

I agree that everyone should have access to healthcare regardless of economic status and no one should have to go bankrupt because of illness. However, the illusion that the US should be more like Canada or Sweden for example with a national healthcare system scares me too. Why? Because I grew up with it and anyone who thinks you'll still have cutting edge and world class healthcare with it is delusional. Think of it like your only choice is the VA. I had to wait two years for a freakin knee surgery in Sweden when I was a teenager because it wasn't an emergency. My knee kept dislocating all the time, but yeah it wasn't going to kill me... In the US I can google the best orthopedic surgens in my area, call them up and get an appointment and schedule surgery within a week. I agree something needs to be done here, but we have to find some middle ground where the quality doesn't suffer in the process.

Quoted from PrussianMosby Sidenote Hey Bogey. I experienced the attitude to look up to China in Europe as well. You must be clear there's also a China where people in the North live without electricity in the 21st century and fear winter every year. I'm more convinced you mean the other side of China that builds golden temples. They both exist. In the docus I watch about China, I see so many sheds that I don't think the press built a studio of Chinese slums to fool us. Living standard vs stock markets.

Good point.

So while I'm still obsessing, I ran the numbers comparing the 2012 votes to the 2016 votes. Very revealing.

Trump actually received FEWER votes than Romney (about 672,000 fewer votes).

Hillary received about 5 million FEWER votes than Obama.

So did Trump really have this "movement" that excited Republicans? No more than Romney it appears.

The biggest contrast was Third Party. 5 million more Third Party votes in in 2016 than in 2012. So nobody can convince me that most of the 2016 Third Party votes didn't come from Democrats. The numbers are just too stark to ignore.

My conclusion: Trump was nothing special on election day. Fewer votes than Romney, and about the same as McCain in 2008. Hillary blew it, because it was there for the taking.

Bogey, stats also show that Trump would have won 2012 with these numbers. You have to look at state by state, not total numbers.

Some other notes:

Millions of people who voted for Obama voted for Trump. Hardly seems race was their motivation.

Trump won the white female vote by 10%. So hardly a gender election.

Michael Moore actually said it best: the people in rust belt states like Michigan, Ohio, Penn, Wisconsin...threw a molotov cocktail at the establishment. They want jobs, not handouts from the elite. They don't want to be serfs living on the plantations of the liberal elite. Right or wrong, they saw Trump as the only candidate who might shake things up.

Trump made a fortune promoting himself.

But the Clintons made not only them, but everyone around them, wealthy through the buying and selling of government influence. That's the ruling class. They live in mansions and their spoiled kids march in rallies and block traffic.

Michael Moore says the people who voted for Trump will be disappointed. Maybe he's right.

But they didn't vote for him because they are racist or misogynist or homonphobic.

They see the system not working for them...they want to throw out the people who run the system and drive hybrid cars and advocate for higher energy costs and who mandate expensive health coverage.

Quoted from leitskev Michael Moore says the people who voted for Trump will be disappointed. Maybe he's right. But they didn't vote for him because they are racist or misogynist or homonphobic. .

I think quite a few voted for him for exactly that reason. When you get the support of the KKK and David Duke, it's because you're sending out a not so subtle message that you agree with their bigotry. Probably why the polls were so inaccurate. People with bigoted tendencies didn't want to admit it to a pollster, which in many ways is what a vote for Trump represented.

As for the stats, I agree with you. Just pointing out that about 6 million more people voted for someone not named Trump than voted for Trump. That's hardly a mandate of support in this election for Trump.

Quoted from Bogey I think quite a few voted for him for exactly that reason.

Yes, to remove racism from the question completely is both naive and disingenuous.

I've been reading and thinking a lot on this.  About identity politics.  About Democratic hubris.

There are a host of things that contributed to a Trump victory -- totally true -- but you cannot examine it fully without considering the racial component.

Anybody who denies that is wearing the same type of blinders the dems wore.

There are people who voted for Trump for racist reasons. It's not why he won.

Millions voted for Obama based on his skin color.

Millions voted for Hillary because of her gender. Her campaign was largely based on that argument. Not that she wasn't qualified, but most of her messaging was centered on "I'm with her", it was clearly designed to focus on her being the first female President.

Trump won primarily because working people are desperate for a change.

And you know what? Trump is largely liberal. He's not really much of a racist. He's no more misogynist than JFK or Bill Clinton. He wants a huge infrastructure bill. He's a trade protectionist.

Quoted from Pale Yellow I just hope he changes the health care system because I'm tired of being fined for not having insurance that supports the people with no job while I cannot use it because my deductible is outrageous.

And this is exactly the problem the vast majority of peeps have with ObamaCare in a nutshell.

First of all, the cost of the insurance is above and beyond what peeps with no insurance can afford.

Secondly, and more importantly, the cost to actually use the insurance is way above and beyond what these peeps can afford.

Even peeps who make a decent living cannot afford a $5,000 or $10,000 Out of Pocket, meaning the insurance is useless, but still costing them money they don't have..

Quoted from leitskev Millions voted for Obama based on his skin color. Millions voted for Hillary because of her gender.

Big difference between voting "for" something than "against" something.

People tend to vote "for their own", and that's just human nature. If you look at Trump's rallies, and some of the signs his supporters carried and the tee shirts they wore, it was conspicuously a campaign of "against".  Against Muslims, against the inner cities, and against Mexicans among others.

Only one person at work voted for Trump and he's a black guy from Jamaica. He's not racist, not a bigot, not a homophobe nor a misogynist. He is religious though and I think that's something a lot of people on the left forget about. Most latinos are catholics. Things like abortion doesn't work for them. When people think about religious "idiots", they seem to only think it's white people mainly in the south, but forget about people from central and south America.  

Only a tiny percentage of voters go to rallies. Only handfuls bring signs. And the media focuses on signs that fit their narrative.

I remember Janet telling me the tea parties were all about the religious right and abortion. I told her to google photos of tea party rallies. There was nothing about abortion. The tea parties were all about bailouts and deficit spending. But the leftist media wants you to think they were an evangelical movement. They absolutely were not...though many evangelicals also believed in those things.

Trump is not a racist. Was there a component of that in the campaign? Yes. I don't approve of it. I didn't suport Trump in the primaries.

But let's not exaggerate it. He's not racist, homophobic, or misogynist. He's been a Democrat most of his life. And he doesn't hate Muslims.

But he was questions many regular people have. Common sense tells us there is a connection between Islam and terror. But liberals let ideology blind them to it. It's not about persecuting Muslims, but we should be able to ask these questios when there are now several attacks within the US a year.

People also have the right to worry about huge illegal populations in crime-ridden inner cities. We're not allowed to even ask those questions without being branded bigot? People are tied of that.

There's an lunatic side to the Trump supporters. Look at the comments at Breitbart. Insane. And Trump used them. I don't approve of it.

But Obama used people who insisted Bush was behind 9/11.

Hillary scared women saying Trump will take away all womens rights.

It's politics. I'm not a politician, I don't like it...I preferred Kasich, who is more honorable. But Trump is not the first to use these things.

Quoted from leitskev He's not racist, homophobic, or misogynist.

He just plays one on TV, and used it to fire up all the haters to get their votes. Sickening.

Since it's now all the rage to toss political correctness, let me follow suit. Trump is a vile con artist that took advantage of gullible Americans that felt they had nowhere to turn but him. He's a Fifth Avenue TV Preacher that lied to America about his ideas (he has none) and what he'll do in office (that will change 10 times by next week). He couldn't save a f***ng casino in Jersey, and he's going to make America great again? Dream on. As for giving him an open mind and a chance, half of America will NEVER forget the shit that came out of his mouth for the last 15 months, nor should they. The example he set has already manifested itself in the streets in the form of abuse and hate crimes against minorities. My wife is a teacher, and she's seeing in her classroom. 4th graders!

They're celebrating in Russia. ISIS is sending out victory posts on social media. The KKK has announced a victory parade in NC.

He may be our next President, but the words "President Trump" will never come out of my mouth.

[that felt good]

He's no more misogynist than Bill Clinton, JFK, RFK. Women faced no barriers in his companies. He just doesn't speak in modern PC style.

I've never seen anything homophobic out of him.

I mean he talks like most regular people not trained in liberal PC-ness talk.

Here in oz we have Medicare which covers your basic visits to a doctor. If you need some sort of operation in a hospital and have no private cover then you are put on a waiting list unless of course it is an emergency.

We are in a private health fund called Medibank. We pay $102 a fortnight for Basic Hospital and Extra - the latter includes dental bills and optical stuff. I wear contact lenses and only pay $50 for a 3 month supply of them. And we get i think $250 free each calendar year to buy running shoes or sunglasses or whatever.

I imagine the dental bills in the US would be huge? Our friends kids both need braces and she is looking at $10 k each for them!  Its ridiculous in this day and age that prices for braces are so high! Even with private health cover she wouldn't be paying much less.

Anyway just throwing in my two bobs worth about it lol