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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Unproduced Screenplay Discussion    Action/Adventure Scripts  ›  Hallow Knights Moderators: bert
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  Author    Hallow Knights  (currently 8612 views)
tonkatough
Posted: October 23rd, 2007, 1:56am Report to Moderator
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Had a bit of a read through your script.

Citadel seemed a little too familiar to me. Like you just took the main character from the Dark Knight graphic novel by Frank Miller and just changed the name, the vehicle he gets around on and his lair. Correct me if Iím wrong but Iím sure I read in your script that Citadel got out of a jam with a hook and line?

I loved Keefe. As soon as I read she was a riot grrl, I thought what? What the hell is that? A quick Goggle search answered my questions.  Riot Grrl are cool.

I laughed out loud when characters come to conclusion that Cooke and Citadel are the same.  It just seemed funny that in superhero comic that someone would link hero and alter ego so quickly. That would be like someone in the Superman movie saying something like ďhey do you think maybe Clarke is superman cause he always runs off when superman fly in.Ē

I know later on it is revealed that Cooke and Citadel are not the same, but I am wondering if you meant this to be a bit ofa parody or tongue in cheek when they come to conclusion that Cooke is Citadel and follow him to lair.

I will be honest with you; I found the plot for this a little dull. All the turning points are in the right spots and you got an exciting chase scene in the middle. Itís just all the stuff in the middle that is a bit of a chore.   I didnít like the second half with Citadel become kidís mentor and prep him up to be replacement hero. Felt like Karate kid territory.

Very cool idea with replacement hero but could have been done better. Like, say have Citadel and villain both after replacement, (the kid) and track down the kid and the race is on to see who will catch him first than fight over him.  

Your writing style and dialogue is top notch and this script proves you are a solid writer.

Keep writing and look forward to see more of your stuff.  


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Souter Fell
Posted: October 26th, 2007, 9:44pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Tonka,

Glad you took the time out to read my little yarn.


Quoted from tonkatough
Citadel seemed a little too familiar to me. Like you just took the main character from the Dark Knight graphic novel by Frank Miller and just changed the name, the vehicle he gets around on and his lair. Correct me if Iím wrong but Iím sure I read in your script that Citadel got out of a jam with a hook and line?

It was my intention that the reader get a Batman feel and then, not nessecarily play against it, but deviate away. Sounds like I might have hit too close to the mark.


Quoted from tonkatough
I loved Keefe. As soon as I read she was a riot grrl, I thought what? What the hell is that? A quick Goggle search answered my questions.  Riot Grrl are cool.

Sweet. Glad you took time out to expand your horizons Riot grrl's were pretty cool in their days.


Quoted from tonkatough
I laughed out loud when characters come to conclusion that Cooke and Citadel are the same.  It just seemed funny that in superhero comic that someone would link hero and alter ego so quickly.

Again, playing with convention. I wanted their conclusion to seem logical and when you expect the hero to be this good, handsome, slightly older man it turns out he's an even older curmudgingly hermit.  I take it from your laughter that it was a little much?


Quoted from tonkatough
I will be honest with you; I found the plot for this a little dull. All the turning points are in the right spots and you got an exciting chase scene in the middle. Itís just all the stuff in the middle that is a bit of a chore.

I was afraid of that. Act II's are the banes of my existence. It's almost like you know where you start your journey and you know where you wanna end up, but the middle gets so rough.  Which stuff exactly was a chore since you said I got the right spots and exciting scenes in there?


Quoted from tonkatough
Your writing style and dialogue is top notch and this script proves you are a solid writer.

Well that's enough for me. It sounds like you enjoyed it mostly, had problems with a number of points but at least went through cause you trusted you were in good hands. Thanks.


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dogglebe
Posted: October 28th, 2007, 8:34am Report to Moderator
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I'm going to rain on your parade, Tim, and say bad things about your script.  I started reading reading it but put it down after twenty or so pages.

I found big problems with your formatting.  Too often, you describe things in ways that cannot be recorded by the camera.  On page one, there are three example:

(the factory) Once produced children's toys; now only tetanus and cockroaches;

SILAC JONNAH, the slick leader of the troupe....

Watson...with his ever-present laptop strapped to his chest.


How does the camera show that the factory use to produce toys?  How do we know that Silac is the leader, much less the slick leader?  How do we know that Watson always has his computer with him?

On page six, you wrote:

They find the savior of Hallow City. The guardian of the night. The protector of the innocent. The masked hero with the long black hair and flowing white cape.

They find the CITADEL.


They found a guy in the elevator wearing a cape, plain and simple.  The camera cannot record this dynamic introduction.  If you want the movie-goers to know how great and wonderful and dynamic and exciting he is, then show him doing great and wonderful and dynamic and exciting things.

You should only describe things in ways that can be seen or heard as these are the only ways that movie-goers can 'receive' the movie.  Describing background information or pointing out character traits won't help the viewer.

I thought that Citadel's debut was very uninteresting.  Here's your chance to give him a big entrance and it peters around with him scurrying around the darkness and shooting people with a dart gun.  It didn't say much for the character.

The conversation between Valentine and Haley was very on the nose.  Thanks to it, I was told everything I needed to know about the world in this script.  No one talks this direct, unless they're standing behind a podium giving a lecture.  This conversation was also a little too cliche for me and ended in a very confusing fashion.  Why would Valentine feel victorious after Haley put her cigarette out in his drink?  She made him his bitch by doing this.

Jamie's story was very cliche.  The little kid without any friends and picked on by the bully until something incredible happens.  Dirk is the sociopath bully.  Keefe is his only friends, etc.  Football coach is only concerned for the jocks, etc..  This was the start of two many brat pack movies.

I have no idea who the Red Lion is, but introducing him by having him talk to his lawyer is not the way to go.  So far, you've introduced Citadel, Silac and Red Lion in very lackluster ways.  This is a superhero story.  Let's see some action!

Writing Hallow Knights isn't like writing a Spiderman or Superman script.  We know who Lios Lane and JJJ are.  We know Doc Ock and Lex Luthor.  We don't know your characters and introducing them in the ways you've written leads to very dull reading.


Phil


PS -- Darkseid was the ruler of Apokolipse.

Revision History (1 edits)
dogglebe  -  October 28th, 2007, 9:03am
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sniper
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 4:47am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe
Too often, you describe things in ways that cannot be recorded by the camera.

[i](the factory) Once produced children's toys; now only tetanus and cockroaches;


I don't agree with that, phil. You were just told that the factory once produced children's toys...that created in image in my head of a production facility, machinery, dolls, toy cars etc that are now covered with with dust, cobweb, mildew etc. Could Tim have written that instead? Sure. But in my book, the "Once produced children's toys" line actually says it better.

I guess it comes down to imagination.


Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
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bert
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 6:55am Report to Moderator
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Objectively, Phil is right in that we are being told as opposed to shown.

Subjectively, Sniper is right in that an image is nevertheless conjured in the mind of the reader.

The problem is solved as such:


INT - ABANDONED TOY FACTORY

The only things being manufactured here now are tetanus and cockroaches.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Souter Fell
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 7:52am Report to Moderator
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In all actuality, I tried to convey tone and environment at once. There is (hopefully) immediatly a sense that this place is rotting away, and by saying it once made children's toys, the reader can imagine what the equipment looks like under the rust.

I wanted to give the place a character instead of just 'factory.' A little fluffy; maybe. I will agree that I have a habit of overstepping my boundary in the tone department but I think I may be acquitted this time.


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sniper
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 8:09am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from bert
INT - ABANDONED TOY FACTORY

The only things being manufactured here now are tetanus and cockroaches.

Actually, that works really well, Bert.


Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
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Souter Fell
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 2:55pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Phil,

I actually didn't notice that til you said it but yeah, all the principle characters are somewhat introduced in a pedistarian passive way.  I would argue that Citadel is introduced actively doing what he does.

As far as the narrative, you're right a bunch. Maybe there are certain parts of my style that are more suited for prose than screenwriting. I do remember writing Citadel's offical intro going "is this a little much?" I guess it was.

Lastly, I felt Valentine would think that he was victorious cause he successfully riled up Haley. Regardless of whether his (free) drink was ruined, the fact that she lost her cool was his victory. If that makes sense and just wasn't presented clearly, let me know.

Sorry you didn't make it past page twenty but thanks for trying.


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dogglebe
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 6:23pm Report to Moderator
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If you look at other superhero, the heroes (and villains) are introduced in dynamic ways.  In 'Batman, ' Batman shows up and scares the shit of the muggers on the rooftop.  The Joker's first appearance is when he empties his gun into his boss' chest while laughing maniacally.  These intros say a lot about the characters.  Batman uses fear and darkness as a tool; the Joker is a crazy bastard.  In Superman Returns, Supes saves a falling airplane full of people while Lex Luthor forges an dead woman's signature on a will so he inherits everything.

Citadel sneaks around and shoots people in the back.  The Red Lion has a good lawyer.  Silac (or whatever his name is) likes to threaten his minions.

Superheroes have to be extremely bigger than life.  From the get-go, the reader/moviegoer has to say 'Cool!'  You have to exaggerate a bit to hook everyone.  People talking and slinking around are wasted introductions.


Phil
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Soap Hands
Posted: October 30th, 2007, 9:57pm Report to Moderator
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Hey,


Quoted from dogglebe
If you look at other superhero, the heroes (and villains) are introduced in dynamic ways... Citadel sneaks around and shoots people in the back... From the get-go, the reader/moviegoer has to say 'Cool!'


Why isn't sneaking around and shooting people in the back cool? I imagine it could be done in a cool and dynamic way, say in the tradition of Solid Snake of Metal Gear fame.


Quoted from dogglebe
Superheroes have to be extremely bigger than life...  You have to exaggerate a bit to hook everyone.


While in general I agree, there is also a flavor of superhero thats... lets say not so over the top fabulous, and I think that's what Row Instructor Souter Fell was going for. You may be right that this won't hook as many people but I think there's an audience for this; sometimes it's nice to tweak conventions.

That said, in the case of Red Lion I completely agree with dogglebe. I found that character particularly uninteresting and lack luster.  


Quoted from Shelton
How bout Ewe Boll?


Sir, you have insulted my honor.

You would do well to learn not to hurl such loaded terms around. Things like Ewe Boll, the holocaust, and slavery represent the worst of humanity and as such using these term in a case like this only diminishes the gravity that these terms carry.

Also, as these terms carry many implicit, destructive meanings and conjurer such grotesque and negative images, if used irresponsibly sensibility may be offended and feeling may be hurt as is the case today.

Sir, I must regretfully inform you that we officially can't "hang". I hope in the future you realize that your choice of words was wrong and you find that, in the name of human dignity, you ought to retract your statement. If such were the case, I might reconsider our official "hanging" status but the damage done here today was so great that I can only pray that it might ever be undone.

With a heavy hart and tear soaked socks,

Dr. Sheepington  

p.s.

whatever, I'm over it, were cool shelton


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dogglebe
Posted: October 30th, 2007, 11:35pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Soap Hands
Why isn't sneaking around and shooting people in the back cool?


Because that's not what superheroes do.  That's what regular people do.  Superheroes are above that.


Phil

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Shelton
Posted: October 31st, 2007, 12:41am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Soap Hands

Sir, you have insulted my honor.


But it's Ewe...Like the sheep, or possibly Eww!  Another Uwe Boll movie!


Quoted from Soap Hands
p.s.

whatever, I'm over it, were cool shelton


Good, because I didn't want to use my "You only have 10 days to respond to my dumb jokes, and you missed the mark" card.


Shelton's Website

Shelton's IMDb Profile

"I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." - Steve Martin
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Soap Hands
Posted: November 2nd, 2007, 2:06pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe

Because that's not what superheroes do.  That's what regular people do.  Superheroes are above that.


If it's not what a superhero does it's not cool?

Or wait, I guess I get what you're saying. Well, I think we can agree Batman is a superhero, and Batman uses grappling hooks which is something a regular person might do, something that may be below... say Superman.

I think it's more in the execution of the action in combination with the overall context that really matters. Like I said before, I can imagine "sneaking up and shooting people in the back" done in a cool way, fitting a "superhero" of Citadel's type. For example, like I said before, the way Solid Snake does it, or perhaps the way Nick Fury might do it.

If you want to argue that Solid Snake or Nick Fury aren't super enough to be called a "superhero" or that somethings are not super enough for a superhero I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.


Quoted from shelton
But it's Ewe...Like the sheep, or possibly Eww!  Another Uwe Boll movie!


Oh! I get it now!
Still think its inappropriate though, like I said before its like slavery, humanity doesn't want to be reminded of it. (If it didn't get through before, I'm really not offended at all and am just giving you a hard time while procrastinating on my school work)


Quoted from shelton
Good, because I didn't want to use my "You only have 10 days to respond to my dumb jokes, and you missed the mark" card.


Oh, I wasn't aware of that rule. In the future I'll be sure to scour the forum for comments you make that might having something to do with me.

sincerely,

Ewe Boll



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Kamran Nikhad
Posted: November 2nd, 2007, 7:52pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted Text
I'm going to rain on your parade, Tim, and say bad things about your script.  I started reading reading it but put it down after twenty or so pages.

I found big problems with your formatting.  Too often, you describe things in ways that cannot be recorded by the camera.  On page one, there are three example:

(the factory) Once produced children's toys; now only tetanus and cockroaches;

SILAC JONNAH, the slick leader of the troupe....

Watson...with his ever-present laptop strapped to his chest.


Well I agree with you that those descriptions were very unnecessary, it doesn;'t explain anything about what's occuring in the script, but I disagree that it would make it impossible to read.  I worked my way around those flaws and frankly found this to be a well written piece.  

But again Tim, these are things you should work on in your next draft.  Try and make your format more appealing and more will be able to read it.  But still, nice work.


Nolan The Security Guard - Short/Comedy 1st Draft, 12 pages.pdf
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dogglebe
Posted: November 3rd, 2007, 7:12am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from bert
INT - ABANDONED TOY FACTORY

The only things being manufactured here now are tetanus and cockroaches.


Or:

INT.  ABANDONED TOY FACTORY

Dusty and rusted over conveyer belts line the floors, filled with partially complete dolls.  Their dark eyes stare off into the void.  A waterbug climbs over one doll's face.

Faded and peeling posters line the walls of little girls clutching dolls.  The girls wear outfit reminsicent to the 1950s.




Phil

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