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  Author    Hallow Knights  (currently 8614 views)
Don
Posted: October 14th, 2007, 1:38pm Report to Moderator
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So, what are you writing?

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Hallow Knights by Timothy F. Betts (souter fell) - Adventure - When teenager Jamie Casey develops an incredible power he is recruited by Hallow City's veteran vigilante, the Citadel. 124 pages - pdf, format


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Shelton
Posted: October 14th, 2007, 6:34pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Tim,

Thought I'd give this a read and try to bump it up a little bit for you.  Seems like lately, once a feature disappears off the portal, it has a chance of staying gone for a bit.

I've read the opening scene so far, and it's a pretty good hook.  You've set up the characters pretty well, and I can see all the elements and complications with the Citadel's vigilante lifestyle.  By the way, isn't there a comic book hero called the Citadel out there?

One thing I've seen so far is the description of things that won't translate to film.  "He takes a drink...it won't be his last".  Things like that add to the reading experience, but it also takes up space, causing it to not be as neat and clean.

In the scene with Jamie after his "run in" with Dirk, I think there should be something in there where he states his case.  He seems to go along with it a little too easily given the way it happened.

I don't think you need the start and end montage tags on pages 62 & 64.  Those read more like normal scenes than a montage.

The radio announcer at the top of page 75 is a VO.

I thought this was a pretty good script, and pretty much right in line with what I think the first script in a superhero series should be, more of an origins storyline.  I was hoping to see a little more of Valentine as the villain, but I'm assuming that you have plans to dive into this storyline again at some point with a sequel, which will probably bring it to the forefront now that the Widower is gone.

Remembering what you had said about this being a comic before, I had that in my head as I was reading and could definitely see it in that form.  The pacing was pretty much spot on in that regard, IMO.

I liked the subtleness of The Widower as villain.  Not too over the top, but you definitely to a good feel for what he was about.

I'd go back and look at how you refer to the characters at times, since I see you jump back and forth between Thurman and the Citadel pretty rapidly, and I'd definitely lose the part in the store where he's referred to as "Wool Cap Man" or something along those lines.  Definitely complicated.  The Hooded Man and Widower references could probably be changed to, but those were pretty consistent as far as before and after the change.

Anyway, this was a good superhero story, and to quote you ...

"Good show"


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: October 14th, 2007, 9:56pm Report to Moderator
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Hello Tim,

I've started reading the script and I'm making notes.

So far I can see that it's a clean looking script.  There's a few spots I've found so far where it's overwritten with things that maybe don't need to be there, but mostly I see a good piece of work.

I know that this is a super hero universe, but one thing I'll mention: Where I live in Canada, GP doctors don't take blood.  (Unless they're vampires).  Seriously, they don't do blood taking or any kind of service work really.  If you want service, go to the gas station or Canadian Tire.  In fact, come to think of it, GP doctors don't really do much.

Oh yes they write the odd prescription, look funny and say, "I don't really know what that could be."  Sometimes they like to get some exercise so they wander the halls of hospitals while men and women nurses dash around like crazy.

Some doctors: the emergency doctors and some specialists actually "do things," so I just thought I'd mention it.  Like I said: not that you need it in this universe, but for future reference.

I think that this story has wide appeal to young people.  What young boy who gets picked on doesn't dream of gaining super hero skills?  I think this is marvelous.

Your easy character cues with Haley blowing smoke out the window is really crafty.  

I'll work through this during the next couple of days and give you more feedback.

You can be proud of this script!

Sandra



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Kamran Nikhad
Posted: October 15th, 2007, 1:38am Report to Moderator
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Hey Tim,

At the moment, I'm around 50 pages in, I'll be done by tomorrow after class.  So for now I'm merely taking notes but what I've read so far is certainly that of a solid and interesting storyline.  So here are my notes so far:

Pg. 3 - FSSSSST!  Sound effects like that are usually SFX's you stray away from in this format I would say.  No one would really know what the purpose of that would be.  Just saying the figure shoots Tiki in the back of the neck with a silenced custom pistol works fine.  The need for SFX's like this are unnecessary unless your making an A/V script.

Pg. 5 - MRS. HALEY sits by weeping.  I think you meant Mrs. Reiley because she continued sobbing on page six, plus Haley's fitted Mr. Reiley with the wire.

Pg. 7 - I understand Citadel's a hero, but that bit on calling him defender of innocent and hero of Hallow's is unnecessary in action sequences.

Jamie's parents, haha oh man, even in MY family my dad could wake me up, grad school too, haha.  But I get it, build up for a kid with some tough luck.  Parents can be cruel, even if they mean well, ha.  Nice touch with that scene.

Dirk � Again, I see where you�re going with this, and although somewhat clich�it fits the scene perfectly.  Building up to the image of some nobody becoming a hero.  Funny too.  Nice work.

Pg.12 � You spell spunky girl with grrl.

Pg.14 � Talk to you later, alright.  Should end with a question mark.

Pg.17 � Building up again, I dig it, but getting suspended for tackling the bully jock doesn�t sit right.  If it�s football then would the coach really nail Jamie and get him suspended for tackling Dirk?

Pg.22 � Cooke�s voice plays on the MP3 file.  If it�s just his voice then add the (V.O) symbol.

Pg.25 � In her crib?  Man THAT�S hardcore bud, I like that.  Pretty sad and low how gang bangers roll, but man Michael and Sully�s scene is just superb.  Nice work.

Pg.28 � Deal or no deal�s on.  Again, with ignoring the kid, showing a cold relationship, they showed us a pilot like this once, it kind of doesn�t work if the kid�s not likeable, but so far, he�s a relatable kid.

Pg.35 � After getting socked in the stomach, Jamie fails to the ground.  Should be falls.   Also, nice work with Dunk�n Donuts, gave me a chuckle, haha.

Pg.36 � Jamie stands in a circle of moaning bodies,  you could be much more descriptive in how Jamie beat down Dirk and the entire offensive line.  Or at least showing him beat down Dirk, lord knows nothing is more satisfying then watching bullies get their comeupance.

Widower, all that building up, with the grave, Sully, the images, his backstory, the duffle bag, all to Red, all as he reveals himself as The Widower, a great touch and great build to a possible antagonist to this story.  

So overall it's a very solid looking story.  I think it's got a good mix between the life of Citadel, the criminal side antagonists, The Widowers' life, and the comedic life of Jamie building up into something really good here.  I'll post the rest of my notes tomorrow.  Keep up the good work.  


Nolan The Security Guard - Short/Comedy 1st Draft, 12 pages.pdf
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Souter Fell
Posted: October 15th, 2007, 7:38am Report to Moderator
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Mike,

Thanks for being the first read. I'm glad it sounded like you enjoyed it. I purposely left the laptop alone yesterday, fighting the urge to check it every other minute. SOunds like this is getting good reviews. Anyway...


Quoted Text
By the way, isn't there a comic book hero called the Citadel out there?

Not sure. I'm not familiar if there is one but I wouldn't rule it out. All I know is the college, military if I think but I'll look into it.


Quoted Text
One thing I've seen so far is the description of things that won't translate to film.  "He takes a drink...it won't be his last".  Things like that add to the reading experience, but it also takes up space, causing it to not be as neat and clean.

I was cautious of that line. There are a couple that I left in to imply tone without being overt. I know its not my job to be the director but I thought maybe it would gve enough of a clue for the director to achieve this feel. Then again it does create (pardon the screenwriting pun) a Widower so, ha, so, so, anyway.


Quoted Text
In the scene with Jamie after his "run in" with Dirk, I think there should be something in there where he states his case.  He seems to go along with it a little too easily given the way it happened.

I see what you mean. I wanted to really start piling on between school and homelife how no one listens to Jamie. Maybe I went a little too far.


Quoted Text
I don't think you need the start and end montage tags on pages 62 & 64.  Those read more like normal scenes than a montage.

Wasn't sure. Thanks for the heads up.


Quoted Text
was hoping to see a little more of Valentine as the villain, but I'm assuming that you have plans to dive into this storyline again at some point with a sequel, which will probably bring it to the forefront now that the Widower is gone.

Yeah. I purposely left a lot of storylines hanging, with Haley, Valentine, and Cooke. And then there's the whole origin of the Citadel. The movie that you don't see. I'll probably revisit this story. Thought maybe doing it almost like a Godfather II dual storyline.


Quoted Text
I liked the subtleness of The Widower as villain.  Not too over the top, but you definitely to a good feel for what he was about.

That was my main goal with him. It's said that the best villians are the ones who truly think what they are doing is right. If I could get the audience, knowing he's a villian, to feel sympathy, I would be very happy


Quoted Text
I'd go back and look at how you refer to the characters at times, since I see you jump back and forth between Thurman and the Citadel pretty rapidly,

I was very wary about this. Between secret identities and trying to keep a little mystery it might have gone to far.

Thanks so muh for the review. I really appriecate you taking the time to give my baby a chance.



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Souter Fell
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Hey Sandra,

Thanks a lot for the read. Glad you think its clean and tight. I'm always worried about typos but your fine tooth comb can never be fine enough sometimes.


Quoted from Sandra Elstree.
So far I can see that it's a clean looking script.  There's a few spots I've found so far where it's overwritten with things that maybe don't need to be there, but mostly I see a good piece of work.

I was worried a little about being overwritten, being an action-y script. Glad most of it worked.


Quoted from Sandra Elstree.
I know that this is a super hero universe, but one thing I'll mention: Where I live in Canada, GP doctors don't take blood.

Honestly, it's been so long since I've been to a regular doctor. I got out of the Navy earlier this year and, for better or for worse, the docs on the boat will do anything stiches or below.


Quoted from Sandra Elstree.
I think that this story has wide appeal to young people.  What young boy who gets picked on doesn't dream of gaining super hero skills?  I think this is marvelous.
Why thank you.

Glad you liked it. Thanks for the write-up.



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Souter Fell
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Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Hey Tim,

At the moment, I'm around 50 pages in, I'll be done by tomorrow after class.  So for now I'm merely taking notes but what I've read so far is certainly that of a solid and interesting storyline.  So here are my notes so far:

[quote=BigK]Pg. 3 - FSSSSST!  Sound effects like that are usually SFX's you stray away from in this format I would say.
I figure that a) it was a sound which usually gets capitolized and b) that the reader, like the audience, would wonder "what was that sound" and then figure it out when Tiki collapses and Citadel explains.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg. 5 - MRS. HALEY sits by weeping.  I think you meant Mrs. Reiley
Guilty as charged.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg. 7 - I understand Citadel's a hero, but that bit on calling him defender of innocent and hero of Hallow's is unnecessary in action sequences.

Sometimes I get carried away with unnessacary tone. I was just trying to signal the immenseness (?) and powerful presence of our hero as he is introduced in full likght for the first time. Sorry.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Jamie's parents, haha oh man, even in MY family my dad could wake me up, grad school too, haha.  But I get it, build up for a kid with some tough luck.  Parents can be cruel, even if they mean well, ha.  Nice touch with that scene.

Glad you thought that worked. I presented them that way to not only to help justify the ending, but to show that you don't have to be abusive to be bad, just indifferent.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg.12 � You spell spunky girl with grrl.

Am I showing my age. It was kinda a reference to the old riot grrl lifestyle of the mid-late 90's. I just couldn't bring myself to make her emo or goth.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg.17 � Building up again, I dig it, but getting suspended for tackling the bully jock doesn�t sit right.  If it�s football then would the coach really nail Jamie and get him suspended for tackling Dirk?

Trying to show the favortism. Should probably include it as a touch or flag football game.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg.25 � In her crib?  Man THAT�S hardcore bud, I like that.  Pretty sad and low how gang bangers roll, but man Michael and Sully�s scene is just superb.  Nice work.

Even though it's not shown, to quote my girlfriend "you gotta give credit to any movie that has the balls to kill a kid"


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg.36 � Jamie stands in a circle of moaning bodies,  you could be much more descriptive in how Jamie beat down Dirk and the entire offensive line.  Or at least showing him beat down Dirk, lord knows nothing is more satisfying then watching bullies get their comeupance.

I think I was trying to give a little more focus to Keefe's reaction.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Widower, all that building up, with the grave, Sully, the images, his backstory, the duffle bag, all to Red, all as he reveals himself as The Widower, a great touch and great build to a possible antagonist to this story.  
Thanks, I think he turned out really well.

Can't wait to what you think about the rest of the script. I think you'll enjoy it. Thanks.



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sniper
Posted: October 15th, 2007, 9:08am Report to Moderator
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Hey Timothy,

Just finished Hallow Knights and I must admit I liked it. It's a fast read - although somewhat cloggy at times (but I'll get to that later) - action packed and really really funny. To me it's like a cross between X-Men, Hulk and V for Vendetta, but I gotta say that the context reminded me a little too much of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns (it might be coincidental but I just had to get that out).

Story wise it is pretty straight forward, a kinda fish-out-of-water story combined with a revenge plot, but I think you kept it pretty interesting with Jamie's "development". It would have been have been nice to know a little more about why he suddenly turns "Hulk", but it still works regardless. Like I mentioned earlier, the story gets a little cloggy, there are a couple of subplots that really doesn't go anywhere and instead they distract from the core story. The whole Haley/Thurman/Valentine plot doesn't get resolved. It'll probably be painful for you, but I think you could cut out Haley all together cos' her character doesn't really bring anything to the story, especially since her and Thurman's "relationship" is not resolved but instead it's kinda left hanging. Dirk and his friends, I guess they are useful in order to show Jamie's new powers but that whole subplot is very cliche. You could probably reveal Jamie's new found powers in a more original way I think.

There are a lot of characters in this script - too many I think. You should keep it more simple, because it tends to get pretty confusing regarding who's who. I constantly got a lot of the thugs mixed up, basically because there are so many. I think it would help if you cut back on some of the lesser characters, maybe melt some of them together - just a thought.

To me, Jamie's the main character of this script. I really like that kid, so very well done here, Tim. The same goes for Keefe. I mean, her part's not overly huge or anything (practically a sidekick), but she still comes across very likeable and useful. And I love that you don't go all mushy on them and instead let their little romance blossom in a real teenage fashion. Very believable - well done. My only beef with Jamie is his switch from school boy to super hero (the scene where he goes after Widower the first time), it happens very sudden I think. Up until that he still came across as a fish out of water. And I was amazed at how easy he located Widower. Also, I'm not sure I understood the last scene correct regarding the headstone. It's metaphorical, right? He didn't just disappear from his family, right? If he did, that would seem a bit over the top (even if his parents aren't paying him much attention).

Citadel/Thurman (I'm not crazy about the name Citadel...but that's another story) also works fine. There's something Eastwood'ish about him - and that's always a good thing. The way he mentors and trains Jamie is great (reminds me of Heartbreak Ridge). Again, good work. Cooke needs a little more I think. He's to Thurman what Alfred is to Bruce Wayne. When he finds out about his fathers death he more or less disappears from the story and it would have been great if that little subplot had been resolved. The Widower reminded me a lot of V (from V for Vendetta). At first I thought he was just another vigilante killing bad guys but that obviously changed. It's a nice (but sad) back-story you've given him. Again, a little cliche, but certainly believable.

All in all I think you nailed your "main" characters really well, but you've gotta lose some of the smaller parts.

The dialogue was great. It was quick, crisp and - a lot of times - funny as hell. There are so many excellent one-liners in this script.


Quoted from Hallow Knights
RED LION
You are trying to lose him, correct?

Brilliant. I also like the banter between Thurman and Jamie in the last scene.

The writing itself was really good, very visual and rich. The fight scenes were nice and short and not overly choreographed, but be careful of not getting your paragraphs too bulky. I might read just as well but it'll look clunky. Another thing, and you probably already know this, only write what can be seen and heard. If you don't show it - we don't know it. It might not be Citadel's last drink as you mention on page 9, but we'll have no way of knowing that if you don't show that (and you don't have to show him actually drinking several shots - there are other ways of doing that). Also, stay away from words like "starts to / begins to". It either rains or it don't (just an example). The same goes for words like IS or ARE, try to write around those - it'll keep the words active thereby increasing the pace. Don't use WE or OUR, those are for shooting scripts (hey, I don't make the rules). I was actually surprised at how well the flashbacks and montages worked - they usually don't - but yours did!

Your format is almost spot on. There are a couple of times where you don't CAP a characters name the first time you introduce them, it's small stuff but still. I've read that - in a scene extension - you should only use DAY or NIGHT, not DUSK, TWILIGHT, DAWN etc. (you can always show that in your descriptions). Regarding slug lines, when you write an interior scene that takes place in a single house but in different rooms it's not necessary to create a new slug like INT - HOUSE - KITCHEN. Just write KITCHEN instead and later BASEMENT (just an example). Also, you should not CAP your dialogue, a simple ! is sufficient. Other than that your format is very solid.

Remember to proof read. It's very easy for me to say this and I know that no matter how many times you proof read your work, something always slip through anyway, but there were a few instances here that kind of disrupted the script a little too much.


Quoted from Hallow Knights page 39
Red Lion nods to one to TOUGH #1, who unholsters his weapon. Silac wiggles in his plaster shell. One shot, right between the eyes.

Silac looks over to Rocoo and Watson. Message received.Alfie rolls his eyes.

I'm pretty sure it isn't Silac - who just had his brains blown out - who looks over to Rocoo and Watson. But then again I could be mistaking.

All in all I thought this was a very good script. Sure, it needs some work/trimming, but what script doesn't, huh? I very much look forward to reading more of yours - keep up the good work.

Cheers
Rob


Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
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Souter Fell
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Hey sniper,

It's great to see the response that I'm getting on this. Usually features can sit idle for a while but this board has been great. Anyway...


Quoted from Sniper
To me it's like a cross between X-Men, Hulk and V for Vendetta, but I gotta say that the context reminded me a little too much of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns (it might be coincidental but I just had to get that out).

Being a fan of comics, or at least former fan (I've lost track over the years) I can see the Dark Knight Returns nod. It is, in my opinion, the best graphic novel I've ever read (sorry Watchmen lovers). I tried to stay away but it's rough when you hero is a normal (not super) guy with a dark, sad past.


Quoted from Sniper
I think you kept it pretty interesting with Jamie's "development". It would have been have been nice to know a little more about why he suddenly turns "Hulk", but it still works regardless.

I see what you mean. I tried to explain it with the point of view that Doc, Citadel, and Jamie still don't exactly know whats going on. They see the effects but are still looking to identify the cause. I think when I go back, I'll try to stress the angle of "we don't know what's going on so we should try to limit it's usage."


Quoted from Sniper
The whole Haley/Thurman/Valentine plot doesn't get resolved. It'll probably be painful for you, but I think you could cut out Haley all together

I see what you mean here too. I wanted to show Haley as one of his only friends, even if it was only as the Citadel. I toyed around having Thurman and her relationship blossom but it seemed a little too parallel to Jamie and Keefe. I thought it would sting more if he loses Cooke and Haley at the same time. Valentine was more of clear cut villian to compliment Widower's empathetic character.


Quoted from Sniper
Dirk and his friends, I guess they are useful in order to show Jamie's new powers but that whole subplot is very cliche. You could probably reveal Jamie's new found powers in a more original way I think.
Aside from the relatability and comic effect he provides, I was thought it would show the level of Jamie's problems before in relation to the level later. High school bully escaltes to homicidal maniac.


Quoted from Sniper
My only beef with Jamie is his switch from school boy to super hero (the scene where he goes after Widower the first time), it happens very sudden I think. Up until that he still came across as a fish out of water. And I was amazed at how easy he located Widower.

It is abrupt. My intention was for Jamie to get wrapped up and engrossed in this new lifestyle and also want to protect Citadel after the beatdown he got. I was worried if this went to fast. Guess it kinda did. As for finding the Widower, Citadel did all the work. Jamie just stumbled on it when he surprise visited Citadel.


Quoted from Sniper
Also, I'm not sure I understood the last scene correct regarding the headstone. It's metaphorical, right? He didn't just disappear from his family, right? If he did, that would seem a bit over the top (even if his parents aren't paying him much attention).

Actually he did. Part of movie not seen, he does disappear (via faking his own death) kinda like how the Citadel did when he first started. Citadel earlier makes a point of saying...
"This ain't a great life. And it requires a total commitment. You can't live as two people."
and
"For all intents and purposes, Jamie Casey will be dead. Ain't no such thing as an alter ego"
Only reason Keefe is going to meet up with him is cause after the Gran De Marcos kidnapping thing, she knows about them. May have to rework this.


Quoted from Sniper
Cooke needs a little more I think. He's to Thurman what Alfred is to Bruce Wayne. When he finds out about his fathers death he more or less disappears from the story and it would have been great if that little subplot had been resolved.

I think Cooke is definetly the closest thing to a friend Thurman had. Hell he was really the only one he trusted with his identity, aside from Leonard. I thought about bringing Cooke back at the end but I feel that would have been cheating a resolution. After Cooke finds out what Thurman did, we want him to forgive Thurman. But he says no. This life has taken enough of a toll on him as well and he just can't do, not after the revealation.


Quoted from Sniper
The Widower reminded me a lot of V (from V for Vendetta). At first I thought he was just another vigilante killing bad guys but that obviously changed. It's a nice (but sad) back-story you've given him. Again, a little cliche, but certainly believable.
Thanks. He was the real make it or break it character. Even though his story is heartbreaking, if he was done poorly he'd become Batman and Robin's "Mr Freeze" or Spiderman's "Harry Osborn" (spider-man killed your father. We get. Move on.) I wanted you to almost be conflicted as to whether or not to root for him.


Quoted from Sniper
The dialogue was great. It was quick, crisp and - a lot of times - funny as hell. There are so many excellent one-liners in this script.
Thanks. Tip for anyone. Say all your dialogue out loud. It helps ya see what works and what doesn't.


Quoted from Sniper
I was actually surprised at how well the flashbacks and montages worked - they usually don't - but yours did!
thanks. I was worried. I wanted to use the least amount of them to show as much as I could. Between them and a mention of the "Gran De Marcos" tragedy on the news. I also didn't want to just show the scene but rather just how they flash through Widower's mind, regardless of if that's how it actually went down. Kinda like the uunreliable narrator.


Quoted from Sniper
I'm pretty sure it isn't Silac - who just had his brains blown out - who looks over to Rocoo and Watson. But then again I could be mistaking.
You're right. I just screwed up.

I'm glad you liked it. After reading "every knee..." I really wanted to get your opinions on this.

Tim



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This is up in the movie poster section but thought it should be here too.

What difference can you make?


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Quoted from Souter Fell
It is, in my opinion, the best graphic novel I've ever read (sorry Watchmen lovers)

I totally agree - I love 'Dark Knight Returns'!


Quoted from Souter Fell
It's great to see the response that I'm getting on this. Usually features can sit idle for a while but this board has been great.

Well, you deserve it. You've been very active yourself so it's only right that your script recieves the attention it deserves.

Btw, I meant to say in my review that with 124 pages you're probably pushing it a bit. Every screenwriting book I've read says a script should not be more than 110 pages (depending on genre). Just wanted to mention that.

And congratulation on finishing a feature script - a monumental task in itself.

Cheers
Rob


Down in the hole / Jesus tries to crack a smile / Beneath another shovel load
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Souter Fell
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Hey sniper,

I was always of the mind set of two hours or 120 pages (a page a minute). Whats funny is that I wrote the first draft using a template on word and it came out to 107. After polishing in Celtx which I added some but not that much it jumped up to 123 plus title page. Anyway, I was always of the school that if you land between 115 and 125 you should be ok.

Anyway, movies are so expensive to see nowadays, you might as well buy in bulk.


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Shelton
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I was thinking about the length a little bit myself as I read, especially with the abundance of action, but given that all these Spider Man and Superman movies are clocking in at or over 2 1/2 hours, I didn't bother to comment on it.


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"I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." - Steve Martin
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Limey
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Hey Tim

I've seen your name (alias) all over the boards so thought I give your script a read. I know you've mentioned this has been something you've been trying to finish in one form or another for ages so congratulations on finally getting there! (feels like I've been working on my first script for ever so I know the pain  )

Anyway, to business...

I really enjoyed this. I'm not a superhero fan boy but this kept me reading. Some of your descriptions are excellent - It once produced childrens toys; now only tetanus and cockroaches, his backpack vomits on the floor - I love this sort of language, very evocative and shows you can be succint without being boring.

I see Rob mentioned it in his review as well but there really is some great dialogue and humour in here, something which always raises action / adventure pics for me. Nice work!

On to the constructive criticism...

My main criticism (more comment really) is that youve got so much material and potential that there simply isnt room to show it all in one feature.

I think you mentioned somewhere that youd originally planned this as a comic book. I can see how all the set-ups you have would be repaid in a series of comics but for me there are a few too many for one feature - neither the Haley nor Valentine subplots are really resolved. If you want to keep them in (and can find the space) they really need to affect the outcome currently they dont. Personally Id drop them and spend more time spent on The Citadels history and Jamies burgeoning powers because I think you can use these to really make the characters stand out

The angle you have on an otherwise fairly standard superhero is that he is now old and has leukaemia. Id like to see this in the action sequences make him fight smarter rather than harder. The suit might compensate for his relative lack of strength but presumably his reflexes and stamina arent what they used to be. If you could find some way of demonstrating this in the way he fights rather than through the dialogue it would be all the more powerful. Ive been trying to think how you could contrast this with how he used to operate without using flashbacks only thing I could think of is old video footage of when he first appeared on the scene being screened on the news or something.

For Jamie, theres got to be some negative side-effects from having excess adrenaline (yeah, Im English) sloshing round inside you. I suspect you have something about this in mind for use later - the low blood glucose levels are mentioned but I dont think the danger to Jamie is explicit. I guess itd be hard to illustrate in just one feature, especially where hes only just discovering his powers and cant control them as yet, but it would make his situation a lot more complex straight off.

Also, there doesnt seem to be much discouraging Jamie from joining Citadel OK, so its not a normal life but his life pretty much sucks anyway and he gets to keep Keefe. Might be worth playing up the fact that hes losing his parents a bit.

With regards to the confrontations with Dirk, there was some talk above about the suspension being a bit unrealistic. If you could somehow tie it in to the scene where Jamie pounds Dirk and his cronies you could get a nice parallel going with Citadels vigilante action ie both are doing what they believe is right but the authorities (Valentine / the Head Master) see it otherwise. Just a thought (and I know Ive already mentioned I think you should cut Valentine  )


A couple of queries on the characters motivations;

Is the Widower motivated by revenge for his wife or a more general hatred of crime? The conversation with Sully suggests the latter but everything else the former.

Why does Citadel try to save Red? Especially given that they both admit they expected Citadel to be the one who kills Red. Or is it because he has now retired? Surely Citadel knows that he hasnt? Or does he know Red is keeping the underworld in some kind of order? Think you could make this a bit clearer.


And two minor points;

p.98 - Wouldnt Watson have sneaked a look at the Widowers revenge file? And run a mile!?!

p.122 - Im not really sure why Jamie is buried next to the Widowers wife? Or is the new grave the Widowers? Im a bit confused.


Overall I think you've got a great script here - I'd just like to see it a little narrower and deeper.

Hope this helps

Cheers

Adam


Bored of shorts? Try a full length feature;

Red Balloons and Rollercoasters (Comedy / Romantic Dramedy)

Read it...

http://www.simplyscripts.com/scripts/REDBALLOONSANDROLLERCOASTERS.pdf

And rip it to shreds in a review...

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1202674615/
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Souter Fell
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Hey Limey,

Thanks for the read.  Seems a lot of the same issues are coming up. That's why you gotta love these boards. Helps ya see the forest through the trees, right.


Quoted from Limey
My main criticism (more comment really) is that youve got so much material and potential that there simply isnt room to show it all in one feature.

I guess it falls into the whole "everything goes in the first finished draft" philosophy. I realize that when I revisit this a lot of the supporting cast will be put on trial for their survival.


Quoted from Limey
The angle you have on an otherwise fairly standard superhero is that he is now old and has leukaemia. Id like to see this in the action sequences make him fight smarter rather than harder.

I agree. At the very least, I need to figure out how to get him more war-torn.


Quoted from Limey
For Jamie, theres got to be some negative side-effects from having excess adrenaline (yeah, Im English) sloshing round inside you. I suspect you have something about this in mind for use later - the low blood glucose levels are mentioned but I dont think the danger to Jamie is explicit.

I'm with you. What if I can figure out a scene where Jamie over exerting himself almost has dire consequences, say maybe in his first battle with the Widower?


Quoted from Limey
Also, there doesnt seem to be much discouraging Jamie from joining Citadel

Really? If anything, I would think it would be almost crazy to go "sure I'll stop whatever life I had to be with this old curmudgeon."


Quoted from Limey
Is the Widower motivated by revenge for his wife or a more general hatred of crime? The conversation with Sully suggests the latter but everything else the former.

Both. As a former cop, he's watched too many criminals slip through. Hence him saying "It's okay. I couldn't do it. Not like that. Not anymore." when he "tells" his wife that he's offically off (the force). Also, if you notice, everyone he kills has something to do with the tragedy that killed his wife.


Quoted from Limey
Why does Citadel try to save Red? Especially given that they both admit they expected Citadel to be the one who kills Red.

I wanted to make it seem like they had history. Almost like two old rivals. They want to beat each other, but there is a respect. Plus I don't think the Citadel would just let him be killed. The only crime we see Red commit (remember that we don't actually see all of how widower's wife died, just flashes) is having Silac killed and that's because he made the mistake of kidnapping a child. I think Red is more or a white collar bad guy. More Lex Luther than the Joker but with his own moral code.


Quoted from Limey
p.98 - Wouldnt Watson have sneaked a look at the Widowers revenge file? And run a mile!?!

Easy. 'Cause I didn't think about it. Seriously, thanks for pointing this out. I'll be sure to address it.


Quoted from Limey
p.122 - Im not really sure why Jamie is buried next to the Widowers wife? Or is the new grave the Widowers? Im a bit confused.

It's clear that this scene needs to be re-written. As well as showing that Jamie has committed to this new "lifestyle" by killing off his former identity, I thought that the audience would at least feel better knowing that Widower is finally resting peaceful next to his beloved. I felt real bad for him (as I hope the audience did) and I figured it would be a little consolation to know that his  pain is over.

Thanks for the insights. Doing the second draft is gonna be a heartbreaker. Good thing I'll hold off for a little bit.

Tim


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Kamran Nikhad
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Okay, just finished.  Not bad, not bad at all.  Here are my remaining notes, and again, I can not stress this enough, try and fix some grammatical and spelling errors, anywho, here are my remaining notes:


Pg.49 He ten dumps the rest.  Just grammatical, fix ten to then.
And Red:  Almost though you took the day off.  Thought is what I think you meant.

Pg.53 You REALLY need to reread your scripts more often, because a lot of these grammatical errors are in dialogue too.  Like Cookes, Whod you get in here?  Howd you get in here is what Im sure you meant, but these mistakes are best caught through peer editting and rereading.  Most of my grammatical errors are found when I reread my scripts.  So you hsould try doing that if you dont already.

Pg.56 Jamie:  Me.  Needs a question mark, not to just be a statement on Jamies part.

Pg.57 Widower crashes through the front window to his own apartment?  Cant he just walk in?  That seems a bit overly dramatic especially when its his own apartment.  Unless he lost his key when he took off his hoodie.

Pg.63 Okay, at this point, I can say you got the true point of the story taking a new turn, nice work.  I can also say that you REALLY need to reread your screenplays bud.  Was that too much for you.  Should have a question mark.  Anywho, I wont list anymore grammatical or spelling errors, but you gotta find those bud and fix em.

Pg.67 VERY good explanation on Cookes bit, you really get why  he does what he does, and feel for the guy, another reason why Im liking this so much, ordinary people brought together, and then you are able to relate to them, put yourself in their shoes.  An ordinary kid who finds out what gifts hes got, and how he intends to use it for the good of the people.  A veteran fighter who is teaching this young blood to be the hero like him.  A misunderstood man and who has lost himself in his hatred and vengeance for the world.  So basically we get the back stories of what Jamie, Citadel, Cooke, Haley, Widower and Valentine are all about.  And I think it all fits in when we see what Cookes about.  Sorry for ranting, just wanted to congratulate you on that part, and nice work on this part.

Pg.81 After that I knew my old had to be stopped.  Old man, be sure you dont forget words either, especially in dialogue scenes.

Pg.98 Holy hell, didnt really see that coming, and was an immense twist in this screenplay.

Pg. 119 Watson: you can all kiss my ass.  Hahaha, thats a good line, but if he was just packing an 9.mm, then Watsons neck wouldnt explode, blood shoots out and what not, but whatever, thats a good scene.

Widowers end was an interesting one, his vendetta fueled his rage, and even still he had moral limits.  As I said, to me, hes just very misunderstood more then he was an antagonist, but he worked well.  His end was somewhat predictable, but it ended well.

Your ending made sense, Jamie taking this superhero bit to the next level, full time.  It was certainly interesting, and I had a chuckle with the jealous line, haha.  

So, nice work bud.  I enjoyed reading your screenplay and like how much work youve put into this piece.  Again, reread your screenplay and fix all grammatical and spelling errors, and fix whatever dialogue doesnt fit well, or is mis pronounced.  But overall, I enjoyed this screenplay.  Keep up the fine work Tim.  


Nolan The Security Guard - Short/Comedy 1st Draft, 12 pages.pdf
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Souter Fell
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Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
try and fix some grammatical and spelling errors, anywho, here are my remaining notes:

No excuse for the typos and what not. Too much late might proof reading I guess. I apologize.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg.57 Widower crashes through the front window to his own apartment?

It actually says front door but I see how that could seem to extreme. I'll see if I can find a better word.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg.67 VERY good explanation on Cookes bit, you really get why  he does what he does, and feel for the guy, another reason why Im liking this so much, ordinary people brought together, and then you are able to relate to them, put yourself in their shoes.  An ordinary kid who finds out what gifts hes got, and how he intends to use it for the good of the people.  A veteran fighter who is teaching this young blood to be the hero like him.  A misunderstood man and who has lost himself in his hatred and vengeance for the world.  So basically we get the back stories of what Jamie, Citadel, Cooke, Haley, Widower and Valentine are all about.  And I think it all fits in when we see what Cookes about.  Sorry for ranting, just wanted to congratulate you on that part, and nice work on this part.

Rant all you want.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Pg.98 Holy hell, didnt really see that coming, and was an immense twist in this screenplay.

As long as you bought it, that maybe the best compliment yet.


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Widowers end was an interesting one, his vendetta fueled his rage, and even still he had moral limits.  As I said, to me, hes just very misunderstood more then he was an antagonist, but he worked well.  His end was somewhat predictable, but it ended well.

It's kinda sad that I knew there was no way I could let him live. He felt guilty for kidnapping Keefe and even risked his life to save her. He doesn't really want to fight Jamie. He just wants to do what he figures he must to set the wrong things right. And in one respect, the Citadel and him are very similiar. Both men are fighting to change a past that they know they ultimatly cannot. Is Widower's need for vengeance any more wrong than Citadel's desperate attempt at penance?


Quoted from Kamran Nikhad
Your ending made sense, Jamie taking this superhero bit to the next level, full time.  It was certainly interesting, and I had a chuckle with the jealous line, haha.  

Glad you thought the ending worked. I was getting worried it would need a complete overhaul.

Again, sorry I put you through so many typos and whatnots.
I really do appreciate it and I'm glad you enjoyed it.

Tim


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Sandra Elstree.
Posted: October 15th, 2007, 10:25pm Report to Moderator
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Hello Tim, you've done such a wonderful job with this, I've only noted some minor typos and concerns.

Hallow Knights is about more than a superhero in training, it's about how some people aren't necessarily born with strength or talent, they develop it, and those that have it or gain it, need to pick up the slack for those less fortunate.

As Citadel ages, his trainee will pick up where he leaves off.  Both revenge and forgiveness are important to the theme.

Here are the small typos etc. and comments on this grand work.

pg 3 sentence doesn't need to start with But.

back pack vomits on floor *change

12 typo grrl

16 principals office * typo possessive

I like what he reveals when he rolls up the wall... page 24

pg 30 were you [feel] cold or clammy typo

31 so kid, why aren't you dead [need a question mark]

31 Jamie is [to] nervous [should be too][to] speak

35 His knuckles are bloody, but not with his.  I think you meant their knuckles are bloody, but not his.

49 almost [though] typo [thought]

53 [who'd] you get here [how'd']??

I really like the diffusion of responsibility line by Citadel.

56 Me. with a ? Me?

58 Ms. Genovese was [atacker] attacked

Am I correct that on page 61 we have a time jump at the point of the text message?  
If we do, you might make it a little more clear.

I would label a dream sequence.  Pg 69

73 gas [masked donned] gas masks

I really like page 79:

79 references the fact that Citadel isn't born with super powers, but he's made them.  This reference I think, if you didn't intend it is a veiled part within the theme of this...

Not all people are born into good situations.  Not all heroes are born with natural power or talent.  We see the recurring bums and drunks who are really down on their luck and this story (as Citadel says) speaks about the diffusion of responsibility.

I really like the part where Haley is looking for the right milk and such a little thing is causing such a big problem at the moment.

Both Haley and Thurman have something in common: they are retiring their old positions.

86 reluctantly [ha] answers the phone

88 Maxim [with] featuring

Jamie's superhero costume isn't described because that's when we hear Thurman's bad news, but maybe it should be.

Vagrant competes with a Santa and loses.  This is brilliant.  A little goes a long way here.  The poor people lose to commercialism.

106 [rest] her head [rests]

115 [Watson's] checks his laptop [Watson]

Hallow Knights is about a superhero who hands over the torch yes, but more importantly it's about those things we should aspire to: dedication to effort, assuming responsibility, and always keeping in mind forgiveness.

This is a superhero script written by a superhero.

Blessings to you Tim,

Sandra



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Souter Fell
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Sandra

Flattery will get you everywhere. Thanks for the list. What possessed you, I don't know but thanks.

Tim


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Limey
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Quoted from Limey
For Jamie, theres got to be some negative side-effects from having excess adrenaline (yeah, Im English) sloshing round inside you. I suspect you have something about this in mind for use later - the low blood glucose levels are mentioned but I dont think the danger to Jamie is explicit.


Quoted from Souter Fell
I'm with you. What if I can figure out a scene where Jamie over exerting himself almost has dire consequences, say maybe in his first battle with the Widower?


Absolutely. And you could then bring it back at the climax - Jamie has to over exert himself again, knowing the consequences, to save Citadel, thereby demonstrating his dedication to his "new life"



Quoted from Limey
Also, there doesnt seem to be much discouraging Jamie from joining Citadel


Quoted from Souter Fell

Really? If anything, I would think it would be almost crazy to go "sure I'll stop whatever life I had to be with this old curmudgeon."


I know (logically) that Jamie would be almost crazy to do it but I don't feel it from the script (that's not what I said originally but it's what I should have). I guess it comes down to what you choose to show as the writer. And no one else has mentioned it so it's probably just me  


Cheers

Adam

PS - how do you quote within a quote? I couldn't work it out (obviously!)


Bored of shorts? Try a full length feature;

Red Balloons and Rollercoasters (Comedy / Romantic Dramedy)

Read it...

http://www.simplyscripts.com/scripts/REDBALLOONSANDROLLERCOASTERS.pdf

And rip it to shreds in a review...

http://www.simplyscripts.net/cgi-bin/Blah/Blah.pl?b-comedy/m-1202674615/
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Kamran Nikhad
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If you want to quote within a quote, just add quotation tabs around your entire quotation, that way the quote box takes up whatever you want quoted.  


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Soap Hands
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Hey,

Wow, looks like I'm a little late to the party, but no matter, there's no substitute for sheepwalker brand criticism(for better or worse)

Before I start I'll let you know that I'm pretty into the Comic book movie genre (I can't die happy after spider-man 3). While I'm not a comic book aficionado, only having read a handful of them (although I do read manga on a weekly basis if you want to count that), I religiously watched most of the cartoons that were made from them so I consider myself fairly well versed in things superhero, meaning that I'm in your target audience and I have a decent idea of what you're trying to do. So in that context, here it goes.

Overall I really liked the script.

On the whole I thought the story was pretty good, with a couple of issues that I'll get to latter. I thought it was pretty well written, it seems to me like you have a knack for fitting in a lot of nice details into concise descriptions that are pleasantly phrased. The structure of the story was, for the most part, pretty good (though as others have pointed out you left some story threads hanging), which lends its self to nice pacing.

The dialog: The dialog, I thought, really had a comic book feel. I assume thats what you're going for so good job. I think the comic book feel comes with its pros and cons meaning that it's a comic book script so there's unity in that sense, its also usually fun and accessible, but on the other hand it lends its self to a certain tone which at times I feel kind of conflicted with some of the more serious stuff (mainly stuff with the widower, Ex. "I am the widower" rant) But on the whole I thought you balanced it well and it worked. Also, you had a couple really clever lines and some of the one liners really cracked me up.

Tone: Most of it I thought had a pretty unified tone, however, like I was getting at before, some of it seemed a little out of place with the rest of it. Most of it had a spider-man stan lee kind of feel (most of the stuff with Jamie) and then other stuff would have a frank miller sin city feel ( like when the widower empties a clip into the gun dealers head, that was pretty brutal) Well anyway, just thought I'd mention it, I found it a little distracting but it wasn't a big deal. If you did it to try and communicate some point that I missed, mission accomplished.

Characters:
I liked most of your characters. I found Jamie rally likable/identifiable (I wish I had superpowers). Keefe I thought was adorable (I wish I had a girl friend like that). Citadel reminded me of Batman (my second favorite superhero, next to spider-man) so he was pretty cool although freshness is another issue that I'll get to latter.  Widower was a badass. The only one I didn't really like was Red Lion. I know he was mainly fodder but still, I would have liked it if he was a little more impressive.  

story:

Like others have mentioned the haley/valentine/citadel thing never really reach its conclusion. I thought it was forgivable, so I hope you don't cut it like other people have suggested. I say this mainly because I really enjoyed that Haley/Thurman interactions/romance. I thought it brought out a interesting part of Citadels character and also hi-lights the sacrifice he has made and what it means to choose that life. You might be able to do it while cutting just Valentine but I still think that loses some of it. You might be able to think of a really good way to do it though. Also, like I was saying this story line just gets dropped at the end. I don't think you necessarily have to resolve it but I would have liked some attempt at closure.

I agree with what one of the poster said about having a consequence for Jamie using his powers and exerting himself, and then being forced to reconfront that in the climax. It felt like he didn't have a rough enough time/ conflict in that arena. I liked your idea of putting it with his first fight with the widower.

Which brings me to the widower. Like I said I thought this guy was pretty badass and a good villain. I thought his story was pretty good. That said, did he have a power? As far as I can remember he was just scared and had a bandanna. Why wouldn't Jamie be able to mess this guy up? Didn't he basically punch down a wall?  I was mostly able to suspend my belief but at times the thought crossed my mind. Maybe his desire for revenge gave him super human endurance. He also reminded me a little of the punisher which is ehhh...

Citadel's I'm dying thing really bothered me. Especially the part where he goes " I have leukemia". I think I get what you're trying to get at but I would have liked it done in a more subtle way. I think I would have preferred it if he was just getting old rather then him having leukemia.

When Citadel and Jamie have their falling out I felt like Citadel was a little out of character, I know he has a reason to be upset but he came across as a more level headed character then that, not a huge issue but I thought I'd mention it.

Cooke's reaction to the news that Citadel had killed his dad seems a little odd to me. Hes been working with him for so long, and it seemed like they had gotten to be pretty good friends... I know its his dad or whatever but still theyve been friend for a long time and Cooke and Thurman are both adults... It seemed like they got ridiculously angry at each other to have not talked to each other for two weeks or whatever it was. I guess it might just be how its played though, if I saw it acted out well I might buy it.

Everything else I was pretty good with, honorable mention for the Jamie/Keefe relationship. I thought that you handled that really well, better then most comic book movies. I'm looking at you spider-man 3!

Innovation:

While a lot of it was good and well executed, you put your own little twist on it, I felt like I'd seen a lot of this stuff before. The changing of the guard thing with citadel seemed reminiscent of the Batman Beyond storyline, like I said the widower reminded me of the punisher and another poster pointed out his similarity to V of V for Vendetta, tons of people have had super strength/durability as a power (although your explanation is a little newer yet equally ridiculous), Citadel himself is similar to batman mixed with iron man with a little bit of Dead Pool minus regeneration.

I think this also carries over to most of your fights, it seemed for the most part like pretty generic fist fights with the occasional batman like acrobatics. I would have liked to see some thing a little different. Same complaint about Citadel's bike. I felt like it was trying to be the batmobile (or batbike, was that what it was called?), only the bat mobile can try and be the bat mobile.

I know I'm not one to talk, and I want to emphasize that I'm not condemning you for this, I think this is still well done and enjoyable, I think you do put your own twist on it, I'm just saying that a lot of it felt familiar and I think thats the difference between good and great, revolutionary.  

Overall:

Overall I really liked it, it read fast and was well written, laughed pretty hard at some of the dialog and you had some great lines. I liked your characters, especially Jamie, Keefe, Citadel, and the Widower. The story was good, although I had some minor problems with it. If this was made into a movie I would happily buy a ticket to see it in theater and I would enjoy myself.

nice work and good job,

sheepwalker


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Souter Fell
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Hey Sheepwwlker,

Thanks for the crit. Was lloking forward to counting your two cents.


Quoted from Soap Hands
Wow, looks like I'm a little late to the party, but no matter, there's no substitute for sheepwalker brand criticism(for better or worse)

Better late than never.


Quoted from Soap Hands
The dialog: The dialog, I thought, really had a comic book feel. I assume thats what you're going for so good job. I think the comic book feel comes with its pros and cons

I tried to, while taking a (slightly) more real world vibe, I wanted to keep it feeling right for the genre. Quick, snappy, hopefully a little less expostiony than normal. Some cheese is needed 'cause the genre's like a good taco, and ya need some cheese for that.


Quoted from Soap Hands
Tone: ...Most of it had a spider-man stan lee kind of feel (most of the stuff with Jamie) and then other stuff would have a frank miller sin city feel ( like when the widower empties a clip into the gun dealers head, that was pretty brutal)

Bingo. I was definetly going for that. A lighter Widower wouldn't have worked just as a tough-as-nails Jamie wouldn't either. But if the two sides of the spectrum can gradually converge...


Quoted from Soap Hands
Characters:...Keefe I thought was adorable (I wish I had a girl friend like that)... The only one I didn't really like was Red Lion. I know he was mainly fodder but still, I would have liked it if he was a little more impressive.  

Who wouldn't? She was first based on a girl I adored years ago. As for Red Lion, he was definetly an experiment on how big I could make a character based on the movie not seen. Guess he needs some tweaking.


Quoted from Soap Hands
story:...Like others have mentioned the haley/valentine/citadel thing never really reach its conclusion. I thought it was forgivable, so I hope you don't cut it like other people have suggested.

It will probably come down to a put up or shut up thing. Must... fight.. urge.. for them to just magically show up and save the day at the end. Then Jamie can say a witty line, Citadel can fume out "Jamie!" chase him, and freeze frame while a live studio audience claps over the credits.


Quoted from Soap Hands
Which brings me to the widower. Like I said I thought this guy was pretty badass and a good villain. I thought his story was pretty good. That said, did he have a power?

I thought I was gonna get away with this one. I chalk it up to passion and experience. He was a cop and is very focus on his objective. Almost numbingly. Luckily Jamie's power is fleeting at the end, and he very carefully engages Citadel but yeah, he does come off stronger than he should be but hey... he's the villian.


Quoted from Soap Hands
Citadel's I'm dying thing really bothered me. Especially the part where he goes " I have leukemia". I think I get what you're trying to get at but I would have liked it  done in a more subtle way.

It's weird cause that was one of the things that got me interested in this. Not just that he wanted to retire, that he has to retire. I know it works as the ticking clock device. I'll have to think about it.


Quoted from Soap Hands
Cooke's reaction to the news that Citadel had killed his dad seems a little odd to me. Hes been working with him for so long, and it seemed like they had gotten to be pretty good friends

I don't know. Seemed like a valid response to me. Not only have I altered my life thinking you avenged my father's death but thought you were my friend, and then I find out that everything in my life happened cause you killed him. Kinda thought "what if I found out my best friend killed my dad?"


Quoted from Soap Hands
Everything else I was pretty good with, honorable mention for the Jamie/Keefe relationship. I thought that you handled that really well, better then most comic book movies. I'm looking at you spider-man 3!

God that was a horrible movie. And why did it turn into the Mask for ten minutes?


Quoted from Soap Hands
Innovation:
While a lot of it was good and well executed, you put your own little twist on it, I felt like I'd seen a lot of this stuff before.

Yeah, some of it is retread. I was hoping to just claim a little corner for myself.


Quoted from Soap Hands
Overall:Overall I really liked it, it read fast and was well written, laughed pretty hard at some of the dialog and you had some great lines...If this was made into a movie I would happily buy a ticket to see it in theater and I would enjoy myself.

And that's what I wanted. This is my entry into the big-tent genre. At least now when we come out of a Transformers or Spiderman 3 or what have you and people say "I could have written a better movie" now I can say "I've acrually tried (and hopefully succeded"

Thanks Sheepy


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Soap Hands
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Quoted from souter fell

Quoted from sheepwalker
Cooke's reaction to the news that Citadel had killed his dad seems a little odd to me. Hes been working with him for so long, and it seemed like they had gotten to be pretty good friend.

I don't know. Seemed like a valid response to me. Not only have I altered my life thinking you avenged my father's death but thought you were my friend, and then I find out that everything in my life happened cause you killed him. Kinda thought "what if I found out my best friend killed my dad?"


Yeah I agree that the reaction is in the right ball park I just think you hit an off the wall double instead of a home run. Like I said before, if I saw it preformed well the actors might be able to sell it to me but while I was reading it I thought, "Wow, it seems like he's reacting pretty strongly to this to have ostracized a close friend in need for two weeks, after all the history they have".

My issue with this and Citadel's "I have leukemia." thing is that I would have like it if they were done in a more subtle way. I think you could still have the clock ticking/I have to retire device just something a little more nuanced then "I have leukemia" would have been nice.

But then again, it is comic book movie so you get a more slack in that department. This is what I would want but ultimately it's your call.


Quoted from shelton
By the way, isn't there a comic book hero called the Citadel out there?


I don't think so but I think some base or lair was called citadel. I want to say magnetto's asteroid base, or that guy from superman that had a fortress planet, I think his name was darkside? or maybe Doomsday?

I'll also post my notes for you to look at, I'm sure some of it is repeats from other people but still:

Pg 4,  valentine, you instead of your

Pg 10, nice description for Jamies intro

Pg. 12  an out rather then and out

Pg 15. Dirk is on the football team and in gym? maybe it was only in my school but you were in a sport or you were in gym not both

Pg. 25, he pulls a service issue, cap. He

Pg. 26 Hooded dude is pretty hardcore, reminds me a little of the Punisher

Pg 28, Ah mis dios! = lol

Pg. 35, he fails to the ground should be falls I guess

pg 39, Tough push a wheel chair bound pushes

Pg. 47, Int. River I think it should be exterior

Pg. 48, citadels bike is alright, however I dont think its as cool as the bat mobile, so maybe you could spruce it up some, or maybe nothing can be as cool as the bat mobile because its the fucking bat mobile.

Pg 49, he ten should be he then

Pg 49, all most though you took the day off thought

Pg 56, reminds me of batman beyond, I think the tone might be a problem, dont know if a crowd not into comic books is going to but it that easily.

Pg. 59, When Pat is introed its not in CAPS

Pg 60, he grabs the phone He grabs

Pg 80, I knew my old had to be stoped I knew my old man?

Pg 82, might not wan to unpack want

Pg. 85, Gets on line behind him gets in line

Pg. 89, Rolled my eyes at the Im dying. thing

Pg. 92, Youre a bad man. Lol

Pg. 94, I so far found this fight a little unimaginative

Pg. 98, dont really buy Citadel being so mad at Jamie for that, couldnt have Jamie screwed up more, like some innocent bystanders get hurt or killed in the fight.

Pg. 98, revelation that Cit killed Docs dad seemed a little forced, I think if you could transition to that subject better it would help

Pg 98, Cookes reaction to the news seems a little odd to me, hes been working with him for so long. I know its his dad or whatever but still theyve been friend for a long time and Cooke seems like a pretty level headed guy, I guess it might just be how its played though.

Pg. 101, I thought Haley knew it was Citadel, did you make it clear that while in costume he has a different voice, or did I miss it.

Pg 106, You one of the only people me with respect odd wording, treat me?

Pg. 119, Widower is almost struggles to stay in there struggling?

Pg 122, The slide, they slide?

sheepwalker  

p.s. The name sheepy is cute but obviously not befitting a being of my extreme masculinity. In the future you may refer to me as either Commandant Sheepwalker or The Grand High Lancer  
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Souter Fell
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Doctor Sheepington,

Wow, looks like my fine tooth comb was being operated by two spaceballs that when asked replied "we ain't found sh!t."

The Honorable Souter, presiding.


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Shelton
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Quoted from Soap Hands


I don't think so but I think some base or lair was called citadel. I want to say magnetto's asteroid base, or that guy from superman that had a fortress planet, I think his name was darkside? or maybe Doomsday?


Maybe I'm wrong.  If nobody can remember it, then maybe it doesn't exist.




Quoted from Soap Hands
p.s. The name sheepy is cute but obviously not befitting a being of my extreme masculinity. In the future you may refer to me as either Commandant Sheepwalker or The Grand High Lancer  


How bout Ewe Boll?



Shelton's Website

Shelton's IMDb Profile

"I think I did pretty well, considering I started out with nothing but a bunch of blank paper." - Steve Martin
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relentless1
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Tim,

Overall. The character dialogue reads easy. The flow of what they say is how people would talk, for the most part. So you seem to know your characters, which is cool, because you're not just throwing words out there just to have them say some thing. But overall there are way too many characters that add nothing to the furthering of the story. Let me say it another way, you have insignificant characters with NAMES. That is very confusing.

Ok narratives. I only say "Ok" because some of them are REALLY good, then it seems like other times you just got tired and didn't put much into it.  Some need work.

With all of the location changes and character names we don't need to know (Morrison, the other doctor etc) it seems like the story is all over the place, for me anyway.

The wording, especially in the warehouse fight scene between Citadel and "henchmen" makes it very campy. Its like you go between making this a serious story, which I can see, then turn around with off the wall wording and it makes the story seem cheap.

Predictable lines between the bad guys and the good guys. Predictable actions also. Pretty good dialogue between Jamie and Keefe. To be honest they are the only characters that made me want to continue reading. That type of dynamic also needs to take place between your villians and the heros. They're conversations all seem very hollow.

Page 1
Should be - approaches clapping proudly

Page 2
"The figure shoots Tiki in the back of the neck with the help of a silencer". It written like the silencer and the unseen figure are separately helping eachother out. Maybe tie this to the paragraph above, "As he puffs, the glowing amber illuminates a FIGURE behind him lifting a silencer equipped pistol".  Then the next line would be, "The figure shoots Tiki in the back of the neck. As Tiki collapses, the Figure catches him and lays him down". Just a suggestion.

Figure dialogue:
"The dart in your neck has paralyzed you. Its effects are temporary. Mine, however, are quite permanent"

It seems like he should be refering to what his effects are that would be permanent.

Page 4
When Haley snuffs her smoke in Valentines drink. Why does he stand there smiling, thinking himself victorious?

Int. Hallow City Fifth Precint
Mr. Reilly is fitted with a wire. Mrs. Haley...? Should that be Mrs. Reilly?

Page 5

The whole part about Heather just appearing doesn't make sense. We go from the father being fitted with a wire, the mother crying, the commisioner is crying, then no one freaks out when, POOF, Heather appears. Everyone just seems too casual about it.

The whole station can't help but smile. Its like the whole station just expected Heather to be there.

Also, Citadel has gotten Heather back, why is he worried about the drop?

Page 6

The characters now seem like stupid criminals, which you don't want. My simple question would be, who wouldn't check to see that your hostage is still there before a money exchange? Now I'm thinking, your hero will have NO problem out smarting these idiots if they screw something up that simple. I would also switch Rocco's name. That name is just synonymous with stupidity. I instantly think, big, dumb, incapable guy.
If you have a "hero" character that can take a round in the face and still survive, then you need an opposition character that's just as strong, if not stronger and smarter. Or else, who is a challenge for the hero?

There are now two thugs guarding the elevator where the girl was. How don't they know that the other guard is missing? He was there earlier.

The narrative describing Citidel is a tad much.

Page 7

Citadel is in the elevator fighting, then Silac comes out of nowhere. I have no idea that either Citadel is out of the elevator or somehow Silac got into the elevator with his Hummer.

What is "bracing for impact, his body HUMS?

Using the terms "hero" and "vigilante" is getting me confused. I can see you wanted Citadel to be a good guy, but he's outside the law. I would really try and define which he is, a real "hero" who works with the police and the commisioner or a "vigilante" who's outside the law, but not communicating with the law openly and helping them out directly. See the mixed signals?

Page 9

The narrative after Jamie says, "Nine fifteen? Dammit!" Is too cluttered, and TOO much of a run on.

Page 11

Don't think its necessary to narrate Ms. Cooper going back to sit at her desk and doing her crossword. The door is already closed so we don't need see this anyway. The door's closed.

Page 13

Ext. Hallow City Cemetery - Then you mention in the narrative that we're in the cemetery.

Page 15

The coach seems a little TOO excited, after having what I can only assume, is seeing Jamie play one time and yet he's already dreaming state?

I don't understand coaches line at the end of the page.

Page 16

Jamie sits, arms crossed and eyes STUNK?

It doesn't make sense to me how or why Jamie got suspended. It's not like the principal has Jamies school file in front of him reviewing a violent history of Jamie in which to help base a suspension on.

Page 20

The Doctor wouldn't be taking the patients temp or blood pressure, a nurse would have already done this. Unless maybe he's a small town doc, that still makes house calls.

Page 21

Cooke stares at the blood sample amazed. How come? It would make for sense that he stare at the bent syringe, unless you describe something unique about the blood.

Page 25

The flashing images. Is Sully supposed to be in the high glass room? Or firing into it?

Page 27

Is Jamie overlooking the desolate highway or is he (2nd narrative) looking down the road? One seems like he's above the road, then he's on it, looking down it.

Page 28

"The truck, seventy MPH, keeps coming", my question would be, how do we know its 70 on the nose? Second, why would these people be barelling that fast in the pouring rain?

The narrative of the truck crashing around Jamie shoud be tightened up. "bending at the king pin" could probably be removed.

"The Caddie from before..." I would change that to Cadillac. Your characters can speak in slang but your narratives should be written for anyone to fully understand the "gist" of what you're trying to say.

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relentless1  -  October 18th, 2007, 10:25pm
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Page 29

"He tries to locate himself". In that context it sounds like he's literally trying to find himself, not mentally get his bearings. Maybe "He tries to orient himself" or "He tries to make sense of the unfamiliar surroundings".

Citadels last dialogue - "Were you feel cold or ....".  Should it be feeling?


Page 30

How is Citadel behind Jamie getting the gun, loading a round and Jamie unaware? I understand Jamie is nervous but it seems like he just went from being a very outgoing kid who stood in front a truck. to completely unafraid to move becuase of this seemingly friendly (but strange) guy.

Page 31

Who is Citadel talking to when he say's "This is the Kid?".

"Then on his desk is a BLACK CELLPHONE we've seen before". We, the reader has seen this before, but Jamie hasn't. Shouldn't he react to this unfamiliar cell?

When Haley has her moment reminicsing about the framed picture, where does Valentine all of the sudden come from? Was he sitting in her office?

Page 32

Second to last narrative - "coach futiley flirts MOS." I know what MOS means in the military and so do you, but what is this? Plus why do we even need to see this exchange between Cooper and Coach?

Page 33

Second narrative - "she thrusts her palm into his NOISE"

Page 34

Second narrative doesn't work, the flow is weird.

Dirks dialogue at the bottom of the page. He says, "I may lose my scholarship", then below that he says "That was my life". He just went from possibly losing the scholarship to now he know's he did.

Page 35.

Second narrative - "his knuckles are bloody, but not with his". That sentence just hangs. Maybe, "Jamie stands in a circle of moaning bodies... his knuckles drip with blood, but its not his."

INT. Apt - It seems like the dog inside but is the Hooded Man inside or outside of the apt? Is he dropping the mail?

Why do we need to know the dogs name?

Page 36

What is the "give it" sign?

Page 38

"TOUGHS push a wheelchair". I know what your trying to say but it seems like you're introducing another character.

Page 40

Red Lions dialogue doesn't sound convincing after having Silic shot.

There's no point in knowing how Keefe parks.

You're introducing characters with names, who don't even matter this far into the script. I'm getting way confused by all the names.

Page 41

Red reaches for his pistol. Is he shooting it from underneath the desk? It doesn't seem like he brought into the open.

Page 42

The monologue that the Hooded Man delivers is too over the top. Not realistic at all.

First narrative - How much C4? That whole room would be gone. Red wouldn't have to worry about climbing out of the window.

Who's the Widower? Another name for the Hooded Man? Too many names floating around. Right now I'm drowning in characters. Its hard to follow who's who and doing what.

I'm lost now because this Widower guy is taking over as the main character and I don't know who's who. Who's the main character? Him or Citadel? And if some how these two end up being the same, then that doesn't work. Because, as a reader I shouldn't be guessing this.

Please don't take this as I'm slamming you, I'm not. I just think maybe "trimming" some here and streamlining there, would make a smoother read and a tighter story. Also pulling together some of the action. Meaning being a little more descriptive.You do have some great lines between the characters and some funny, memorable scenes, most between Jamie and Keefe. But your main character Citadel, should have defining words also.

Sorry if I'm a little nit picky, but after 11 years in the Corps, well you know how we are about detail. I'll try and finish the rest before Sat.

Moses
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The boy who could fly
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Hey Timothy, just finished your script, and for your first feature length script I thought you did a really good job.  I think it has a nice dark, moody atmosphere to it.  The opening was pretty cool with the kidnapping plot, I thought it was a neat way to introduce your hero.  

I think Rocco should be a little more threatening on the phone with Mr. Riley, the line "no getting smart" didn't feel right, I think if he said something like "I'll gut your girl like a fish" it would make him a little more menacing and threatening.  On page 4 you have Valentine say " You tell him, you hero" I think you meant " you tell him, YOUR hero".

I like the introduction of Jamie, he seems like your average teenager with parents who don't quite pay attention to him "shhhhh deal or no deal is on"  hahaha, good line.  

on page 12 you write "KEEFE, 16, a spunky little riot grrl" "Girl".  I think the football scene was an interesting way to set up Jamie with his powers.

I liked the relationship between Jamie and Keefe, they had a nice rhythm between them and it felt real.

Page 49 you write                                    RED LION
                                  Almost though you took the day off

I think you meant "Almost THOUGHT you took the day off"

The widower is an interesting villain, not so much evil as misguided which I think makes the story more complicated, in a good way I mean, he is not someone you can hate, in fact you can kind of feel for him, kinda like Ed Harris in the Rock, not so much bad as just frustrated with they way his life has gone.

Page 72 you write "even since Red Lion was killed" I think you meant " EVER since...."


I think over all this was a pretty good super hero type of script, I don't know if this is the start of a series but I see some promise here.  The page count didn't bother me, most super hero films are near two and a half hours so I don't think that is a big deal at all.  

All in all this is a pretty tight script, you got an interesting hero, a complex villain which is the most important thing in a super hero type of story.  I think it could be a little darker like the last batman film, it's almost there it just needs a little more of a push.  All in all I think you did a good job here, especially for a first script


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Souter Fell
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Quoted from the boy...
I think Rocco should be a little more threatening on the phone with Mr. Riley, the line "no getting smart" didn't feel right, I think if he said something like "I'll gut your girl like a fish"
i always thought that. I wanted himm to seem second fiddle bjut still menacning. I'll see what I can do.


Quoted from the boy...
I like the introduction of Jamie, he seems like your average teenager with parents who don't quite pay attention to him "shhhhh deal or no deal is on"  hahaha, good line.  

at least everyone agrees they like Jamie.


Quoted from the boy...
on page 12 you write "KEEFE, 16, a spunky little riot grrl"

has no one ever heard of a riot grrl?


Quoted from the boy...}I liked the relationship between Jamie and Keefe, they had a nice rhythm between them and it felt real.[/quote

Cool. i wanted it slow and natural (in the time constraints) like a real friend to more-than otherwise.

[quote=the boy...]The widower is an interesting villain

As long as he was somewhat new. Not a overly @sswhole, in it for the money villain. Basically I wanted him to seem more personnal, therefor more dangerous than others.


Quoted from the boy...
I think over all this was a pretty good super hero type of script, I don't know if this is the start of a series but I see some promise here.

I wanna revisit this. That's why i left so many loose ends. I'm glad you liked it and that's for the read.

And real quick to everyone who has read. Just so you know, I value all your crits. Don't think that just 'cause some of the problems haven't been addressed doesn't mean I'm totally dismissing them. The script is hosted by SS which would make it difficult to keep on changing it. But they will all be noted and considered in the next draft. Thanks.



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Souter Fell  -  October 21st, 2007, 1:28pm
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tonkatough
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Had a bit of a read through your script.

Citadel seemed a little too familiar to me. Like you just took the main character from the Dark Knight graphic novel by Frank Miller and just changed the name, the vehicle he gets around on and his lair. Correct me if Im wrong but Im sure I read in your script that Citadel got out of a jam with a hook and line?

I loved Keefe. As soon as I read she was a riot grrl, I thought what? What the hell is that? A quick Goggle search answered my questions.  Riot Grrl are cool.

I laughed out loud when characters come to conclusion that Cooke and Citadel are the same.  It just seemed funny that in superhero comic that someone would link hero and alter ego so quickly. That would be like someone in the Superman movie saying something like hey do you think maybe Clarke is superman cause he always runs off when superman fly in.

I know later on it is revealed that Cooke and Citadel are not the same, but I am wondering if you meant this to be a bit ofa parody or tongue in cheek when they come to conclusion that Cooke is Citadel and follow him to lair.

I will be honest with you; I found the plot for this a little dull. All the turning points are in the right spots and you got an exciting chase scene in the middle. Its just all the stuff in the middle that is a bit of a chore.   I didnt like the second half with Citadel become kids mentor and prep him up to be replacement hero. Felt like Karate kid territory.

Very cool idea with replacement hero but could have been done better. Like, say have Citadel and villain both after replacement, (the kid) and track down the kid and the race is on to see who will catch him first than fight over him.  

Your writing style and dialogue is top notch and this script proves you are a solid writer.

Keep writing and look forward to see more of your stuff.  


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Souter Fell
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Hey Tonka,

Glad you took the time out to read my little yarn.


Quoted from tonkatough
Citadel seemed a little too familiar to me. Like you just took the main character from the Dark Knight graphic novel by Frank Miller and just changed the name, the vehicle he gets around on and his lair. Correct me if Im wrong but Im sure I read in your script that Citadel got out of a jam with a hook and line?

It was my intention that the reader get a Batman feel and then, not nessecarily play against it, but deviate away. Sounds like I might have hit too close to the mark.


Quoted from tonkatough
I loved Keefe. As soon as I read she was a riot grrl, I thought what? What the hell is that? A quick Goggle search answered my questions.  Riot Grrl are cool.

Sweet. Glad you took time out to expand your horizons Riot grrl's were pretty cool in their days.


Quoted from tonkatough
I laughed out loud when characters come to conclusion that Cooke and Citadel are the same.  It just seemed funny that in superhero comic that someone would link hero and alter ego so quickly.

Again, playing with convention. I wanted their conclusion to seem logical and when you expect the hero to be this good, handsome, slightly older man it turns out he's an even older curmudgingly hermit.  I take it from your laughter that it was a little much?


Quoted from tonkatough
I will be honest with you; I found the plot for this a little dull. All the turning points are in the right spots and you got an exciting chase scene in the middle. Its just all the stuff in the middle that is a bit of a chore.

I was afraid of that. Act II's are the banes of my existence. It's almost like you know where you start your journey and you know where you wanna end up, but the middle gets so rough.  Which stuff exactly was a chore since you said I got the right spots and exciting scenes in there?


Quoted from tonkatough
Your writing style and dialogue is top notch and this script proves you are a solid writer.

Well that's enough for me. It sounds like you enjoyed it mostly, had problems with a number of points but at least went through cause you trusted you were in good hands. Thanks.


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dogglebe
Posted: October 28th, 2007, 8:34am Report to Moderator
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I'm going to rain on your parade, Tim, and say bad things about your script.  I started reading reading it but put it down after twenty or so pages.

I found big problems with your formatting.  Too often, you describe things in ways that cannot be recorded by the camera.  On page one, there are three example:

(the factory) Once produced children's toys; now only tetanus and cockroaches;

SILAC JONNAH, the slick leader of the troupe....

Watson...with his ever-present laptop strapped to his chest.


How does the camera show that the factory use to produce toys?  How do we know that Silac is the leader, much less the slick leader?  How do we know that Watson always has his computer with him?

On page six, you wrote:

They find the savior of Hallow City. The guardian of the night. The protector of the innocent. The masked hero with the long black hair and flowing white cape.

They find the CITADEL.


They found a guy in the elevator wearing a cape, plain and simple.  The camera cannot record this dynamic introduction.  If you want the movie-goers to know how great and wonderful and dynamic and exciting he is, then show him doing great and wonderful and dynamic and exciting things.

You should only describe things in ways that can be seen or heard as these are the only ways that movie-goers can 'receive' the movie.  Describing background information or pointing out character traits won't help the viewer.

I thought that Citadel's debut was very uninteresting.  Here's your chance to give him a big entrance and it peters around with him scurrying around the darkness and shooting people with a dart gun.  It didn't say much for the character.

The conversation between Valentine and Haley was very on the nose.  Thanks to it, I was told everything I needed to know about the world in this script.  No one talks this direct, unless they're standing behind a podium giving a lecture.  This conversation was also a little too cliche for me and ended in a very confusing fashion.  Why would Valentine feel victorious after Haley put her cigarette out in his drink?  She made him his bitch by doing this.

Jamie's story was very cliche.  The little kid without any friends and picked on by the bully until something incredible happens.  Dirk is the sociopath bully.  Keefe is his only friends, etc.  Football coach is only concerned for the jocks, etc..  This was the start of two many brat pack movies.

I have no idea who the Red Lion is, but introducing him by having him talk to his lawyer is not the way to go.  So far, you've introduced Citadel, Silac and Red Lion in very lackluster ways.  This is a superhero story.  Let's see some action!

Writing Hallow Knights isn't like writing a Spiderman or Superman script.  We know who Lios Lane and JJJ are.  We know Doc Ock and Lex Luthor.  We don't know your characters and introducing them in the ways you've written leads to very dull reading.


Phil


PS -- Darkseid was the ruler of Apokolipse.

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Souter Fell  -  October 28th, 2007, 9:03am
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sniper
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 4:47am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from dogglebe
Too often, you describe things in ways that cannot be recorded by the camera.

[i](the factory) Once produced children's toys; now only tetanus and cockroaches;


I don't agree with that, phil. You were just told that the factory once produced children's toys...that created in image in my head of a production facility, machinery, dolls, toy cars etc that are now covered with with dust, cobweb, mildew etc. Could Tim have written that instead? Sure. But in my book, the "Once produced children's toys" line actually says it better.

I guess it comes down to imagination.


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bert
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 6:55am Report to Moderator
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Objectively, Phil is right in that we are being told as opposed to shown.

Subjectively, Sniper is right in that an image is nevertheless conjured in the mind of the reader.

The problem is solved as such:


INT - ABANDONED TOY FACTORY

The only things being manufactured here now are tetanus and cockroaches.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Souter Fell
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In all actuality, I tried to convey tone and environment at once. There is (hopefully) immediatly a sense that this place is rotting away, and by saying it once made children's toys, the reader can imagine what the equipment looks like under the rust.

I wanted to give the place a character instead of just 'factory.' A little fluffy; maybe. I will agree that I have a habit of overstepping my boundary in the tone department but I think I may be acquitted this time.


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sniper
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 8:09am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from bert
INT - ABANDONED TOY FACTORY

The only things being manufactured here now are tetanus and cockroaches.

Actually, that works really well, Bert.


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Souter Fell
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Hey Phil,

I actually didn't notice that til you said it but yeah, all the principle characters are somewhat introduced in a pedistarian passive way.  I would argue that Citadel is introduced actively doing what he does.

As far as the narrative, you're right a bunch. Maybe there are certain parts of my style that are more suited for prose than screenwriting. I do remember writing Citadel's offical intro going "is this a little much?" I guess it was.

Lastly, I felt Valentine would think that he was victorious cause he successfully riled up Haley. Regardless of whether his (free) drink was ruined, the fact that she lost her cool was his victory. If that makes sense and just wasn't presented clearly, let me know.

Sorry you didn't make it past page twenty but thanks for trying.


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dogglebe
Posted: October 29th, 2007, 6:23pm Report to Moderator
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If you look at other superhero, the heroes (and villains) are introduced in dynamic ways.  In 'Batman, ' Batman shows up and scares the shit of the muggers on the rooftop.  The Joker's first appearance is when he empties his gun into his boss' chest while laughing maniacally.  These intros say a lot about the characters.  Batman uses fear and darkness as a tool; the Joker is a crazy bastard.  In Superman Returns, Supes saves a falling airplane full of people while Lex Luthor forges an dead woman's signature on a will so he inherits everything.

Citadel sneaks around and shoots people in the back.  The Red Lion has a good lawyer.  Silac (or whatever his name is) likes to threaten his minions.

Superheroes have to be extremely bigger than life.  From the get-go, the reader/moviegoer has to say 'Cool!'  You have to exaggerate a bit to hook everyone.  People talking and slinking around are wasted introductions.


Phil
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Soap Hands
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Hey,


Quoted from dogglebe
If you look at other superhero, the heroes (and villains) are introduced in dynamic ways... Citadel sneaks around and shoots people in the back... From the get-go, the reader/moviegoer has to say 'Cool!'


Why isn't sneaking around and shooting people in the back cool? I imagine it could be done in a cool and dynamic way, say in the tradition of Solid Snake of Metal Gear fame.


Quoted from dogglebe
Superheroes have to be extremely bigger than life...  You have to exaggerate a bit to hook everyone.


While in general I agree, there is also a flavor of superhero thats... lets say not so over the top fabulous, and I think that's what Row Instructor Souter Fell was going for. You may be right that this won't hook as many people but I think there's an audience for this; sometimes it's nice to tweak conventions.

That said, in the case of Red Lion I completely agree with dogglebe. I found that character particularly uninteresting and lack luster.  


Quoted from Shelton
How bout Ewe Boll?


Sir, you have insulted my honor.

You would do well to learn not to hurl such loaded terms around. Things like Ewe Boll, the holocaust, and slavery represent the worst of humanity and as such using these term in a case like this only diminishes the gravity that these terms carry.

Also, as these terms carry many implicit, destructive meanings and conjurer such grotesque and negative images, if used irresponsibly sensibility may be offended and feeling may be hurt as is the case today.

Sir, I must regretfully inform you that we officially can't "hang". I hope in the future you realize that your choice of words was wrong and you find that, in the name of human dignity, you ought to retract your statement. If such were the case, I might reconsider our official "hanging" status but the damage done here today was so great that I can only pray that it might ever be undone.

With a heavy hart and tear soaked socks,

Dr. Sheepington  

p.s.

whatever, I'm over it, were cool shelton


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dogglebe
Posted: October 30th, 2007, 11:35pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Soap Hands
Why isn't sneaking around and shooting people in the back cool?


Because that's not what superheroes do.  That's what regular people do.  Superheroes are above that.


Phil

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Quoted from Soap Hands

Sir, you have insulted my honor.


But it's Ewe...Like the sheep, or possibly Eww!  Another Uwe Boll movie!


Quoted from Soap Hands
p.s.

whatever, I'm over it, were cool shelton


Good, because I didn't want to use my "You only have 10 days to respond to my dumb jokes, and you missed the mark" card.


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Soap Hands
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Quoted from dogglebe

Because that's not what superheroes do.  That's what regular people do.  Superheroes are above that.


If it's not what a superhero does it's not cool?

Or wait, I guess I get what you're saying. Well, I think we can agree Batman is a superhero, and Batman uses grappling hooks which is something a regular person might do, something that may be below... say Superman.

I think it's more in the execution of the action in combination with the overall context that really matters. Like I said before, I can imagine "sneaking up and shooting people in the back" done in a cool way, fitting a "superhero" of Citadel's type. For example, like I said before, the way Solid Snake does it, or perhaps the way Nick Fury might do it.

If you want to argue that Solid Snake or Nick Fury aren't super enough to be called a "superhero" or that somethings are not super enough for a superhero I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree.


Quoted from shelton
But it's Ewe...Like the sheep, or possibly Eww!  Another Uwe Boll movie!


Oh! I get it now!
Still think its inappropriate though, like I said before its like slavery, humanity doesn't want to be reminded of it. (If it didn't get through before, I'm really not offended at all and am just giving you a hard time while procrastinating on my school work)


Quoted from shelton
Good, because I didn't want to use my "You only have 10 days to respond to my dumb jokes, and you missed the mark" card.


Oh, I wasn't aware of that rule. In the future I'll be sure to scour the forum for comments you make that might having something to do with me.

sincerely,

Ewe Boll



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Kamran Nikhad
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Quoted Text
I'm going to rain on your parade, Tim, and say bad things about your script.  I started reading reading it but put it down after twenty or so pages.

I found big problems with your formatting.  Too often, you describe things in ways that cannot be recorded by the camera.  On page one, there are three example:

(the factory) Once produced children's toys; now only tetanus and cockroaches;

SILAC JONNAH, the slick leader of the troupe....

Watson...with his ever-present laptop strapped to his chest.


Well I agree with you that those descriptions were very unnecessary, it doesn;'t explain anything about what's occuring in the script, but I disagree that it would make it impossible to read.  I worked my way around those flaws and frankly found this to be a well written piece.  

But again Tim, these are things you should work on in your next draft.  Try and make your format more appealing and more will be able to read it.  But still, nice work.


Nolan The Security Guard - Short/Comedy 1st Draft, 12 pages.pdf
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dogglebe
Posted: November 3rd, 2007, 7:12am Report to Moderator
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Quoted from bert
INT - ABANDONED TOY FACTORY

The only things being manufactured here now are tetanus and cockroaches.


Or:

INT.  ABANDONED TOY FACTORY

Dusty and rusted over conveyer belts line the floors, filled with partially complete dolls.  Their dark eyes stare off into the void.  A waterbug climbs over one doll's face.

Faded and peeling posters line the walls of little girls clutching dolls.  The girls wear outfit reminsicent to the 1950s.




Phil

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Mr.Z
Posted: November 3rd, 2007, 12:27pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Tim,

Let me first say that Im impressed. This is one of the most solid features I read on this site.

Fast paced with some nice twists here and there. Good writing style. Witty  dialogue. Action. Humour. Good scene efficiency. And some more cool stuff Ill detail further down.

Got some suggestions as well, since I think that some aspects could be improved.

GOAL

I think that your protagonist (I assume its Jamie) needs to have something relevant to do early in the script. He seems a bit out of the loop during most part of the second act.

After the first act ends and he discovers his superpowers, Jamie is left with nothing important to do, story wise. He teams up with Keefe (great character that condenses the sidekick and the love interest) and they have this theory that the Citadel and the doc are the same person. So they set out to prove or disprove this theory.

This is indeed a goal, but I think you need another one. First, the audience already knows that the citadel and the doc are not the same person since they had a conversation in an earlier scene. Audiences superior knowledge can do wonders in some cases but in others can really slow down the excitement and momentum; it isnt much fun to wait the hero to catch up to what you already know.

And there isnt anything at stake here. What happens if Jamie fails? What happens if he cant get into the Citadels secret place? Well, hell be disappointed for sure, but its not a life or death thing. And it should be. There are bigger things happening while Jamie looks for the Citadels hideout and I think that somehow he should be part of them.

Its in page 107 where Keefe is taken by the widower and now is up to Jamie to rescue his girl and his mentor. If he fails, they could die. Thats the kind of goal that Im talking about. It has the necessary stakes. And theres a strong opponent here (the widower). But this angle is introduced nearly at the end of the script.

I really believe that your script would work much better if Jamie had a life or death goal during the second act with a strong antagonist to standing in his way. Its cool when he kicks the bullys ass the first time. But by the time Jamie is about to face the bully again, we already know that hes going to kick his ass. This dramatic angle loses impact upon repetition. He needs to face a bigger challenge right away.

After Jamies powers are established you have to give him a goal that would require full use of them to achieve it. And a strong antagonist to stand in his way. The schools bully is not a match. Spiderman kicks some ordinary thugs ass for a while but it isnt long before he has to face the green goblin and his advanced weapons.

One important aspect about stakes: Jamie kisses an eighteen wheeler at full speed and survives with hardly a scratch. That scene would look awesome on screen, I really can see why you wrote it. But think of the dramatic ramifications. If Jamie cant get killed how could you design action scenes to put him in danger? You need to do this. The audience knows that the hero doesnt die, but at some point they should afraid that this could happen, its something pretty common in action scripts.

Id suggest re-thinking Jamies powers. Dont make him superman, or if you do, think of a kryptonite for him. He needs to be in serious danger at some point. Im confident that your script could be much more exciting if you manage to turn up the heat for your protagonist a bit. The hero needs to have his ass kicked. Think of the spiderman/green goblin showdown; remember that tattered mask and that defeated look on Parker? Remember that dismantled Robocop. Or Agent Smith beating the crap out of Neo.

The overall quality of the script suggests that youre perfectly capable of coming up with a scenes to make the audience wonder How the heck will Jamie get out of this one?

One last thought about goal/stakes. Since Jamie sets out to save his friend the Citadel when he founds out hes in danger, Im not sure if its the best dramatic choice to give the Citadel a terminal disease. I mean, hes going to die anyways. Its understandable that Jamie still wants to save him, but I wonder if the stakes could be higher by giving the Citadel a chance for a normal life after retirement. The better his life, the more damage the widower can inflict. And the stakes could be higher that way.

THEME

This scripts got a message. And its an interesting one since explores the implications of what the Citadel calls diffusion of responsibility.

Youve got to do something yourself if you want to make a difference:  great choice of theme for a superhero story.

I feel like you only scratched the surface tough. You could dig so much deeper.

The theme surfaces when the Citadel tells Jamie about how people want things to be done but they nobody wants to be the one to do it (p.55). A great angle. I wish you had it more in mind to craft your story.

You see, your message is served to the audience in a silver plate. The mentor (Citadel) tells the message to his disciple (Jamie). And the disciple accepts it from the start; from the scene with the teacher I gather that Jamie shares the Citadels point of view about diffusion of responsibility.

The message is introduced a little bit late and the hero gets it right away without much struggle or conflict. I think you need to dramatize this angle a bit more. Use conflict to bring theme to the surface.

You may have noticed that Peter Parker doesnt accept right away that with great powers come great responsibilities. He uses his powers to fight for money and get some bucks to buy a new car and impress a girl. When the fight manager is robbed, he lets the thief go away (not his problem). And his uncle gets killed because of that. He learns the theme the hard way.

(MORE)


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Mr.Z
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(CONT'D)

Usually, in the first act, the hero is a non-believer of the theme, since ?theme? goes hand in hand with ?character arc?. You?ve got to give our hero a flaw if you want him to have a lesson to learn. And making your protagonist learn a lesson is a subtle way of getting your point across to the audience via dramatization.

I mean, the thematic statement usually inspires a lot of story choices. Here?s an example, I hope you?re able to see past its crappyness in order to see my point: Jamie isn?t the one being bullied at school. Another kid is. And Jamie doesn?t do anything about it. He wants something to be done, of course, but he doesn?t want to be the one to do it. Enter the Citadel and his opposite view of things. Can you see a better recipe for conflict? Wouldn?t this conflict bring the theme to the surface in a more interesting way than a couple of dialogue scenes between Jamie, Citadel, and Jamie?s teacher?

Last crappy example: It?s not Jamie?s girl the one that is kidnapped. It?s the Citadel?s girl. I mean, if Keefe is in danger, it?s obvious that Jamie will do something about it. It?s personal (despite the Citadel being in danger). And there?s not much dramatic weight in his decision to show up in the climatic last scene. What else could he do?

But what if Keefe was safe with him and the one in trouble was the Citadel?s love interest? Jamie would want something to be done, for sure. But would he be the one to do it? It?s not his problem (directly) and the Citadel told him so stay away. If he still chooses to intervene and help others, his decision will be more thematic since he?s helping others (especially if you introduced him as a non-believer of the theme).

Bottom line, in order to use conflict bring your thematic statement to the surface, I think you need to give your protagonist an opposite point of view. Neo didn?t believe he was The One at first, and that story choice fed his inner struggle during the second act and made his journey more interesting.

CHARACTERS

Characterization was fine here, but I?d say that you?ve got too many characters.

Man, you?ll probably hate me for this, but I think you need to lose Valentine?s subplot. I thought he would be some sort of antagonist to Jamie or the Citadel, but he wasn?t a real threat for them. That was the Widower. Same happens with the Red Lion.

I liked their scenes, but together, Valentine and the Red Lion have a very important amount of screen time. I would say a little too much for characters that don?t have any kind of interaction with your protagonist.

MINOR DETAILS AND SILLY STUFF

P.2 ?higher tax bracket? loved this line. In general I liked you dialogue lines a lot. I won?t mention them all since they are so many.

P.4 Maybe I?m confused but you?ve got a ?MRS. HALEY? that?s supposed read as ?MRS. REILLY? in here?

P.6 Prepare yourself to hate me even a bit more. I didn?t like the cape. I associate capes to superheroes that fly (Superman) glide (Batman) or hang out with flyers or gliders so they have the same tailor (Robin). Don?t ask me why, but because of the Citadel?s characterization, I picture him saying ?Capes are for pussies? instead of wearing one. No biggie. This is just a stylistic choice. Just offering my (obviously subjective) take on it.

P.17 ?INT. HALLOW CITY ? LIMOUSINE ? DAY? could be shortened to ?INT. LIMOUSINE - DAY? The reader gets that the story takes place in Hallow City.

P 21 The syringe thingy was cool. I still think you should not make Jamie indestructible, but the scene was pretty good.

P.28 ?Usted tiene que conseguir a mi marido! El es todav?en el coche!?

Haha! Man, your spanish sucks as much as my english. Try something like ?Usted tiene que rescatar a mi marido! El est?n el coche todav??

P.33 Keef?s reaction to Jaime?s story is pretty funny.

P. 123 Liked the scene where Jaime attends his own funeral. Had a dark feeling that I like for endings.



Don?t let all the bitching above fool you, I enjoyed reading this one. I think it needs work but it was an impressing job.

Good show  


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Souter Fell
Posted: November 3rd, 2007, 9:31pm Report to Moderator
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Hey Z,

Thanks a ton for the read. I'm glad you had fun and you crit is awesome. Couple of things.

It is evident that Valentine had better come up with a big save if he wants to make it through re writes.

I think I have to do more with Jamie's limitations. Citadel alludes that he could have went into a coma but I need to show something like that to show that his power is not constant and infinite.

The 18 wheeler scene is definitely written as something I want to see. It was a little gluttonious but c'mon, I'm a writer and it's a tentpole type movie. Go for broke.

My spanish is via a spanish converter. Thanks for the suggestion. It better not mean something like "my balls have swelled to infinite proportions."

All in all you brought up great story aspects for me to reexamine. Thanks.


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Blakkwolfe
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Hi Tim;

I enjoyed Hallow Knights- very well written and well thought out. Very DC Comics....(I was a Marvel guy when I was a kid, but read enough DC to know the difference)...Would have liked to see a bit more of Red Lion, as he was a good villian.

Loved the conflicted character of the Citadel, he's got a lot of depth and some issues which make him very interesting.

Jamie on the otherhand is a bit stereotyped...Seems like it's always the geeky, put-down kid that ends up with the super powers; Peter Parker, Danny Phantom, and so on...

Good luck with this!

Joe


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Souter Fell
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Thanks wolfe. Oddly enough I was always a marvel guy too. And the desired effect was for you to know more about Red Lion, but not get it.

Anyway, for anyone that hasn't read this, a typo-less version (hopefully) has replaced the old one. Not much in the story has changed. Not a new draft by any means but hopefully an eaasier read.


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Souter Fell
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Hey guys,

Kinda felt like a loaf for a while. I'm mired in the second act of Mission To Earth. Keep chugging right? Anyway, if you read this thread you know that Hallow Knights was something I was working on in various incarnations for years and years until I finally got off my but and finished the script. Well, while at my folks I found some pages I did when I went at it as a graphic novel at least seven years ago. Shown below is a cover/pin-up I did for it. The main scene that I found bears a striking resemblence to the football scene on page 14. It's link's are down there as well as a page of the Citadel suiting up. There's no lettering but I think you can get a good sense for what's going on, especially if you've read the script. Hope you like the treat and I'll try to shape M.T.E. into something soon.

Tim



Page 1
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff75/souterfell/scan0002.jpg
Page 2
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff75/souterfell/scan0003.jpg
Page 3
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff75/souterfell/scan0004.jpg
Page 4
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff75/souterfell/scan0005.jpg
Page 5
http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff75/souterfell/scan0006.jpg



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Souter Fell  -  January 2nd, 2008, 6:19pm
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Soap Hands
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Hey,

Those aren't half bad. Much better then I could do anyway.

If you don't mind me asking, what happened to the comic book plan? Is the comic industry one of those that are really hard to break into or something?

sheepwalker
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Souter Fell
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How dare you ask?! Just kidding. Kinda just fizzled out when I was doing it. I was working a lot and going to school and then, well, joined the Navy. I sent out some samples and through a contact in DC got some actual professional feedback. Another of those shoulda couldas, right? I supposedly did some stuff for an indie in Chicago. Supposedly meaning that I sent out the work and never heard from the guys again. I ain't to mad at it. Far as I know it never really got produced and it gave me some more practice so it's not a total loss.

My girl keeps begging me to try Hallow Knights as a comic again. Every time I entertain that notion I remember I'm just avoiding writing


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dresseme
Posted: January 12th, 2008, 2:47pm Report to Moderator
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Ok, so I've started reading your script, and I wanted to pause at the end of what could be considered the first act to make some comments.

First off, very solid writing.  No spelling/grammar errors, and everything reads very smoothly.

Right now, I feel like the story is kind of derivative of other movies of its kind, but I'm hesitant to say any more because I don't know where it's going.  It really reads more like a kid's movie than anything right now, so I'd probably recommend (for starters) taking out some of the harsher language (like pussy and faggot).  Granted, it's a bit more realistic, but what place does realism have in this script?

(Added note after reading a bit more: Ok, this just became really violent, really quick.  I don't know what rating you'd be going for with this...or furthermore, what audience.)

On to some more specific comments that I wrote as I went....

p.7 - The description of the Citadel is very lacking.  Masked hero with black hair and white cape isn't a whole lot to go with.  I feel for a Superhero you really need to paint a good image, because with something this vague, I'll basically just piece together other superheros to make the image in my mind, making it seem less unique.

p.9- The aspirin is too much.  Granted, it's cute, but that's about it. He's either invincible or he isn't.

p.14- The bit at the gravestone is a.)WAY too cliche and b.) way too detailed.  I don't care who you are, no one stands at a gravesite and says that much stuff out loud.  I dislike scenes in movies where the character talks to a gravestone period, but you can get away with it if the dialogue is short enough....for me, this went on too long.

p.16- "Coach, I broke my everything."  Very witty written out, but I don't think I can picture anyone actually saying this and pulling it off.

That's all for right now.  

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Souter Fell  -  January 12th, 2008, 3:03pm
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Souter Fell
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Hey Dressel,

Thanks for the start of the read. I'll agree that it sometimes can't decide between PG-13 to R. I actually toned back the length of Citadel's into after many comments about it. You can''t win sometimes I guess. Plus with creating a character in a realm where most are already establish, wanted to give the design team some room. Didn't want to go overly into something that the costume department would handle and isn't essential to the plot. Describing a lining on his uniform may be the equivilant of writing your character with green eyes, but the green eyes really have no effect on the story.

I think you hit on something without knowing it. "He's either invincible or he's not." Keep reading and find out.

The gravestone is a little chiche, I'll agree. I just like it so much. Guy who you can't even see, making a pledge to a dead girl. Almost feels western-y to me.

Anyway, thanks for the start of a read. Keep reading.


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dresseme
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Ok, finished.  Finally, I know.  It's been kind of hectic around these parts, but I'm not really going to go into that.

Overall, I think the script needs a bit of work.   I really liked all of the action sequences; for example, the fight between The Widower and Jamie, and the final showdown.  I think that they'll be something really cool to watch.

Here's my play-by-play, so to speak:

p.28-  The whole, stopping a vehicle by stepping into it reminds me of the new Will Smith movie "Hancock".  I know that doesn't mean you can't use it, but that's all I could think about while reading it (especially seeing as I've seen the trailer countless times)

p.36- Keefe's reaction to Jamie beating up the bullies and acceptance of his powers is a little ridiculous.  After all, his hands were covered in blood, and she just shrugs it off. Granted, they were horrible to them, but BLOOD?  I think such a savage beating would upset anyone.

I like Red Lion; especially his treatment of Silac.  He's an awesome character.

p.41- "So maybe I'm not so good at the parallel park"- What?

p.47- Is it really that easy to jump from a speeding car onto a speeding boat?

It's at this point that I really am wondering who your audience is.  And I know you've acknowledged the whole "PG-13" vs. "R" thing, but it's kind of a big deal.  Who's the audience?

p.53- I don't like Cooke's response of Citadel being "Just a friend".  I'd want more explanation at that time, not later.

p.54- Citadel - "Think you were meant for something else..."  - This whole part just seemed kind of cheesy to me.  It implies that a greater sense of wanting to help the world came with the powers.  It just seems kind of silly.

p.57- Jamie takes the book without ANY sarcastic quip?  That seems unlike him.

p.75- "....speculated to be very injured."  - Awkward line.

p.80-  Thurman is a terrible name.  It's kind of cute that he's named that, but not enough to not make the scene seem really stupid.

p.89- "Something I should have done a long time ago." - No.

Your script REALLY needs to be cut down in length.  Two hours seems like it's pushing a bit too much.  I see you've discussed this in previous posts, but I would really take it down a bit.

You need to decide what you want your script to be.  You go from hardcore action to silly scenes that have no place in the movie (see above listed critiques).  If you cut some of the more superflous scenes that have no place in the story, I think it would flow a lot quicker.  An example?  At the end of the story, the whole fat man fart thing....I get it, it's cute, they're back together, etc.  But it's too late in the game for that.  I want more action, and I want the story to get going.

A good read, but I'd really like it if it was more consistent.  Like I said before, it read like a hard-R superhero film mixed with a PG kids film.
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RedGlow
Posted: February 11th, 2008, 12:03pm Report to Moderator
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Tim,

Read the script and I think its really great. I enjoy the writing and the development of the characters throughout. My only real problem with the whole thing is that Jamie's parents are practically non-existent in the whole thing. This might be the point but I feel it really feels a bit too...un-real or sketchy, if you know what I mean.

Anyways well done and I look forward to reading your other scripts.

Billy
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hawkinsfilms
Posted: August 7th, 2008, 11:07am Report to Moderator
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It's hard to find anything to say that hasn't already been said.  I can say Three venti's at starbuck's, a cigar and a "good run!"  I really enjoyed reading this script.  It's a good origin story that could easily be the tent pole for a franchise.  

I liked the characters. I especially liked the fact that you made The Widower a sympathetic character.  I once read an article which warned against making your villain evil simply in order to have a villain.  Instead it reminded us that the villain is the hero of their own storymeaning to methat if you were to flip your story around and tell it from the villains point of view he/she would have motivation to do what they are doing.  You did that very well here.  He may have been committing murder, but in the end you could understand what had driven him to that point.

Im looking forward to the next script.  You should give it a read through with typos in mind, but other than that you have a good writing style and seem to have found your voice.

Good Luck and Good Life,

Jerry W. Hawkins

http://www.HawkProd.com
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Souter Fell
Posted: August 7th, 2008, 4:18pm Report to Moderator
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hawkprod,

Hey, thanks for the read. This one's been gathering cobwebs. Proof the OWC is a good way to promote yourself.

Glad you liked the Widower. I really pushed hard for the audience to feel for him. I like the idea of the story being told from his perspective. It's an interesting angle.

Proof reading is the bane of my existence, especially features. I'll try harder.

Any glad you enjoyed it. Feel free to check out any of my other shorts. There's one more not listed in my sig (Eternal Memories). Just put my name (Timothy F. Betts) in the search. Thanks.


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hawkinsfilms
Posted: August 8th, 2008, 11:27am Report to Moderator
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I suck at proof reading myself.  I seem to almost always see what I "meant" to spell even when trying to find my errors!  I'll check out your shorts in the next few days.

Jerry W. Hawkins
http://www.HawkProd.com
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stebrown
Posted: August 17th, 2008, 9:33am Report to Moderator
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Hey Tim

Just finished this and wanted to give my immediate reaction. Haven't read any feedback so sorry if any repeats.

First off, really liked it and it was a really quick read. Nice take on the whole double life of a superhero and the sacrifices he has to make.

All the characters are really well developed but I couldn't really work out who to root for.

The widower is probably the most interesting character and the one that has the most inner-conflict. I saw some similarities between him and Brandon Lee's 'The Crow'. Not similarities in a been-done-before but just in his just fight for justice at any costs. Would be interesting to see how this would change if you had him as your main protagonist.

The character I'd have liked to know a little more about was Leonard. I didn't really get him -- why he was looking after the alley? Sure he gets free booze but I don't think you justified why he didn't squeel and get the reward money.

The one thing I thought could work better was The Widower's last line. He wants to die deep down right, be with his wife again. So when Citadel says I'm sorry, why not have him just say 'Thank You' instead of I know. That way you don't know if he's thanking him for his apology or for letting him fall to his death. Just sounds good in my head anyway.

I'll probably post another review later on, cos I think I'll read it again in a few days. Like I said, I'm trying to learn pacing and structure for my own feature.

Ste


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