I've been thinking about why the comedy didn't work for me. The script is filled with unusual characters but only the germaphobe gets in a real wacky situation that you could actually see happening to someone. This was the only part I was laughing out loud at.

No other characters get themselves in situations like that. Bum just sits there. The rest just talk. I think more scenes like this would be needed.

When I read the script, there was never a doubt in my mind what was intended with that scene. They way it was done did not slow me down nor did it confuse me in any way. I totally agree that any character who has a reoccuring (sp) role needs proper introduction as soon as we see them.

OK, guys and gals, just to play Devil's Advocate here, a couple things...

First off, this is a Spec script, right?  This is not a shooting script, so the kinds of things that Lakeside is mentioning, shouldn't really be an issue at this point.

What if this diner was populated with 15 people, all of whom come into the story at one time or another?  You're not going to intro them all at once, unless they're all going to be doing or saying something right away.

As for Del, I would imagine that he's in the kitchen, out of sight unless he comes up front.  If he doesn't do literally anything, why intro him 10 pages early?

Again, I think this sort of stuff is the least of the problems here and it's kind of funny how we tend to get stuck on a tangent for no reason.

What you mean we, kemosabe?  

Does Del rent his shoes, or lease with an option to buy?

YES!  I would definitely mention what his shoes look like, and I'd make sure that every article of clothing that every single charcter is weaing is spelled out completely, including whether or not they're wearing underwear!

Kidding, obviously.

The "we" comment is a generality.  "We" being the people that are having this "discussion.  I didn't bring this up.  Phil and George started in on it, and I threw in my $.18 worth.

First off, Welcome to Lakewood.  It doesn't matter that you know Mike you're still welcome in the discussion.

Next, the introduction issue, seems awfully format-oriented an issue to me and not really the sort of thing we usually encourage in Script Club.  But since we are discussing it, characters should be introduced when they become relevant.  Obviously Mike considered them relevant at the point he introduced them.

Lastly, I think we are talking about characters so...

The characters were pretty consistent and seemed to have separate voices.  However, none of them grew very much during the course of the script so there really wasn't any arc to capture our emotional involvement.  I suppose we feel a bit for Gabe but he's so weak that it's a little difficult to get too involved with him.  He is definitely the protag though.

I'm not sure if I said this already but Jack Amsterdam was my biggest disappointment in this script - I don't know if this is because I read The Swinging Sounds or not but I found Jack A to be annoying and obnoxious in this script.  He completely overpowers the rest of the characters.  

I thought this the first time I read this script and I brought this up to Mike then.  Mike knows this character much better than the other characters and as such Jack is written with a certain amount of confidence that the others don't have.  This causes the script to be unbalanced toward Jack.  

My suggestion then and my suggestion now is to rewrite this script without the Jack Amsterdam character. Let Gabe be the hero he is supposed to be. And I understand the whole Gabe and Cam are supposed to be replaced by Jack and Yago as hero and villain - but I don't like it as a story and I think it could be so much better if Gabe solved the problem on his own.

Quoted from Dreamscale OK, guys and gals, just to play Devil's Advocate here, a couple things... First off, this is a Spec script, right?  This is not a shooting script, so the kinds of things that Lakeside is mentioning, shouldn't really be an issue at this point. What if this diner was populated with 15 people, all of whom come into the story at one time or another?  You're not going to intro them all at once, unless they're all going to be doing or saying something right away. As for Del, I would imagine that he's in the kitchen, out of sight unless he comes up front.  If he doesn't do literally anything, why intro him 10 pages early? Again, I think this sort of stuff is the least of the problems here and it's kind of funny how we tend to get stuck on a tangent for no reason.

Yes and no...

Even though it's on spec, I still think we need to consider the clarity of intros.

Re: Gabe's point of view as he enters

I was thinking too that if there were a lot of traffic then just "customers" would be good at first.

It's not a tangent IMHO, (I don't even think the rented shoes in The Strangers thread was a tangent) but what do I know... I used to hang out 'till 4 am at Dennys when I was young.  

If Mike had the time and space and really wanted to, I'm sure he could have milked the intros here for all they were worth and instead of having Barb, 48 standing, and Keith and Valerie, both 23, sitting on the far side he might have had,

Barb the waitress, 48, sits and gabs with Keith and Valerie, both 20s and Del, the owner and cook who brushes past Gabe, shushing him, sneaks behind Barb and scares the daylights out of her.

The reason I use this as an example is that it just brings a little more to the sitting/standing thing and brings it to life a little more.

Sandra

I agree Sandra. More action doesn't have to be big action. It can also be subtle little things that people do to define character and such. I think that's why most of us remember Franklin and find him most interesting. Even though he was stuck in the bathroom we learn quite a bit about him in the little weird things he did.

Sandra, I also agree with you, and I commented on this earlier, in a different way.

When I said 1 of the biggest issues wth this script was its lack of action, I meant exactly what you said and what Pia agreed with.  Action of any kind is what's missing here.  No one seems to do anything other than chat, while standing or sitting.  Anything at all, like you mentioned in your example would help give some life to the characters and the script as well.

Come to think of it, I have no clue who the couple is sitting in the diner in the beginning.  Do they do anything?  Do they have any relavence here?  I can't for the life of me remember anything about them or who they are.

Quoted from Lakewood I did want to post that dogglebe is giving horrible advice.  If your character is in the scene you name them.   If you don't name them you chance screwing up the AD and the call sheet.  If you have a character only as WOMAN, 20s, someone is going to list the character on the call sheet as that and they're going to find an extra.  Then, when they're getting ready to shoot someone is going to realize that it's VAL.  And Val might be taking a three day weekend on the opposite coast because she's been cleared.  Then the director flips out, screams at everyone and time is wasted trying to find a work around.

I didn't say not to list them.  I list them when they become relevent.  Scene a scene like this:

EXT.  BUS -DAY.

BOB (20), GERRY (26), STAN (25), JOANNE (15), FRED (12), MARY (25) and CARL (15) sit in the moving bus.

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah

(two pages later)

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

Stan steps over to the two.

                STAN
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah

                BOB
       blahblahblahblah

                GERRY
       blahblahblahblah



When you list all the characters together, the reader is overloaded with names and they don't stick as well.  And all the names would still show up on the call sheets if they're done right.

Quoted from Lakewood As far as DEL.  I just assumed it was one of those open kitchen diners since he was named as being in the scene.

But he wasn't relevent until you saw him cutting the onions.  And, personally, I didn't see an open kitchen diner.  When you first saw him in the intro, what did you see him doing?


Phil

Yeah, and that onion cutting scene was HUGE!  I remember almost crying ,myself from the mere thought of it...

Kidding!! Seriously...just kidding..but couldn't help myself.

Phil,

Formatting issues are irrelevant to the philosophies behind the script club.  If you want to bring up formatting issues then please bring them up in the original script thread. Please use this thread to discuss content, story and, well, you can see the topics that are valid in the first post.

Cheers.  

The hope with the Script Club is that we find scripts that really don't have those issues, and even if they do, formatting is the easiest thing to deal with.

Really, I think we've hit all the topics and discussed them to death at this point. I think we can invite Mike in for his take on all this and see if we have anything more to add, or whether the horse is dead.

Hi George, This week has been difficult for me with time but was planning to join in the conversation this weekend, am about halfway through and will contribute something sometime tomorrow.

Not sure this is quite dead yet.

Quoted from George Willson The hope with the Script Club is that we find scripts that really don't have those issues, and even if they do, formatting is the easiest thing to deal with. Really, I think we've hit all the topics and discussed them to death at this point. I think we can invite Mike in for his take on all this and see if we have anything more to add, or whether the horse is dead.

Actually George if you look at the history of the Script Club it came out of a thread called "Breaking the Rules".  I know you weren't around when this started so I don't expect you to know this but the reason we started doing it was to examine scripts without being bogged down by formatting issues or even structure issues.  Formatting discussions were banned from the original Script Club threads.  It isn't that we look for scripts that don't have those issues, its that we don't discuss those issue (those issues are for the normal script threads and there is no reason to discuss them here).  

As far as ending the discussion I don't think people were even aware we went on beyond characters.   Plus there are still people who haven't read it yet.

Cheers,

Michael