It's always so hard for me, as a writer, you want your script to sizzle and keep the interest and without wrylies or some direction, that is hard.  Maybe for inexperienced writers anyway.

There is also, style.  I think stickng to the format, etc is a must, but then we always see a little style out of the best writers, and I like that.  If it was all laid down flat then it wouldn't be an interesting read.  Even if the content was hot!

You all are so awesome to read your POVs.  

"Your second example seems to contradict your earlier point. He tells you exactly what she's doing, exactly where she's looking and even her state of mind (as you requested in the first instance)...but you see it as bypassing Nina's character." quote from Rick

No, I didn't request her state of mind, I suggest that what the writer needs to supply is a description of what can be seen; pain, humiliation etc.

so, for me it makes a difference to say that "Nina is too ashamed" or to say "Nina looks too ashamed" and I'm going to try to be more careful in my own writing, so I learned something.

Quoted from c m hall "Your second example seems to contradict your earlier point. He tells you exactly what she's doing, exactly where she's looking and even her state of mind (as you requested in the first instance)...but you see it as bypassing Nina's character." No, I didn't request her state of mind, I suggest that what the writer needs to supply is a description of what can be seen; pain, humiliation etc.

"Breathing hard, she's too ashamed to meet Yevna's eyes."

He makes it quite clear.

She's breathing hard, is embarrassed and can't look at Yvena.

EDIT: In your new example:

She's either ashamed or not. If she is ashamed...you can simply say she's ashamed.

The actor will act ashamed and LOOK ashamed.

The only purpose of adding the proviso "looks" would be if she's actually feeling something else...ie pretending. "Nina looks ashamed, but smiles maliciously when Yvena's back is turned!"

Quoted from dmc2011 It's always so hard for me, as a writer, you want your script to sizzle and keep the interest and without wrylies or some direction, that is hard.  Maybe for inexperienced writers anyway. There is also, style.  I think stickng to the format, etc is a must, but then we always see a little style out of the best writers, and I like that.  If it was all laid down flat then it wouldn't be an interesting read.  Even if the content was hot! You all are so awesome to read your POVs.

The only thing to worry about with unfilmmables is presenting specific info. you want the viewer to know in the description area that's outside of the scope of the visuals you've presented at that time.

For instance;

The scene is a guy holding a snow globe and he's crying because his mother has died and it reminds him of all his past Christmases with her.

"Tears run down Rob's cheeks as he clutches the snow globe that his mother used to put out every Christmas.".

If you film that as it is, you don't get the idea he's upset because of his mother...it's just a guy crying over a globe.

Instead you might have a montage showing the Globe throughout different years at Christmas with his mother there, then cut to the empty house in the present and the scene with him crying. IE show it.

Or you can reveal the info. in dialogue. "Mum used to love this thing, she'd always put it in the same place every year. I thought it was corny at the time...now she's gone..." IE tell us.

Character intro's are fine...and are an EXPECTED part of a script. You can simply spell out the nature of someone's personality. The writer is then responsible for backing up that personality later in the script through action and dialogue. The character description helps people to instantly picture and understand the characters. It helps everyone involved get an immediate image of the person.

Character directions are also fine...actors can portray any emotion and can decide exactly how to play the scene. You don't have to spell out every little physical action.

Maybe something like...

Nina chest rises and falls, her eyes are averted, she looks at the floor.

Doesn't that kind of look like a person highly embarrassed?

"Tears run down Rob's cheeks as he clutches the snow globe that his mother used to put out every Christmas.".

If you film that as it is, you don't get the idea he's upset because of his mother...it's just a guy crying over a globe.

That is a great example and funny too!    Thank you!

Quoted from dmc2011 Maybe something like... Nina chest rises and falls, her eyes are averted, she looks at the floor. Doesn't that kind of look like a person highly embarrassed?

Don't you think it sounds very robotic?

It does everything that the writer's example does...except without making it clear what she's actually feeling!

As a writer you don't need to tell Natalie Portman how to act ashamed. That's her job.

It is perfectly acceptable to say "she's too ashamed to look".

Honestly. It is.  

Well, here we go again...

According to Rick, there is absolutely nothing wrong with anything that is usually wrong, as long as it's in a Pro script, which obviously makes no sense.

Rick, you have an answer and an argument for everything and it's getting very frustrating.

Where do we draw the line?  Here, we have a 129 page script for a 100 minute movie...thus, we have approximately an extra 30 pages of overwriting, orphans, wrylies, and unfilmables and asides, and you argue that everyone of them is great, perfect, and acceptable in every way.

What if the script was actually 139 pages?  Would you still defend them all?

How about 149 or 159 pages?  At what point would you agree that enough's enough, and actually agree that maybe the writer has gone a little overboard?

And going back to this theme thing again, you completely misquoted me, saying I don't believe there's theme in films.  There is theme in everything...it's universal and always present.  Because of that, it doesn't matter to me, and I don't need to bring it up or even discuss it.  MY enjoyment or lack thereof, will never be swayed by what the theme is.

Yep, my example was very robotic!!  LOL..
Okay, I like being able to say she is ashamed, much easier.

But again, I get confused, cause they say SHOW don't TELL.  ugh!

Is the script linked to on the first page the one that we are reading/discussing, or is there a different one I should check out?

Sorry; I'm a little late in getting here, but in preproduction right now.

The 129 page draft is linked in the first post of this thread.

Quoted from Dreamscale Where do we draw the line?  Here, we have a 129 page script for a 100 minute movie...thus, we have approximately an extra 30 pages of overwriting, orphans, wrylies, and unfilmables and asides, and you argue that everyone of them is great, perfect, and acceptable in every way.

Not quite Jeff. Cornetto wanted us to read the earliest version available on the web and that's the one he found. The version I read was a much newer draft and only had 107 pages.

PS. Should anyone want to take a quick peek at that one, just let me know. I don't remember where it came from, but I think it was the official script posted by the studios or something like that.

I'll agree if someone points out an example that's obviously "wrong".

What's "usually wrong"?

Where did you get the rules from? These rules are coming from pre-pro writers on the internet, and not from the Industry.

Orphans or whatever...fair enough, although they are hardly going to kill a story but you're leading people astray by telling them that character directions are incorrect. They aren't.

This is a proven fact.

This script did not become the movie anyway. Beth's character has largely been removed, which accounts for a lot of time, for a start. Pia says she's read a 107 min. version, which is probably closer to the actual film.

As for the theme thing...every last detail in this script is defined by the theme. The characters are there to illuminate the theme...It's about the transformation into the wild and destructive force of the Black Swan...hence Nina at the start is made the direct opposite (insecure, virginal, stunted, child-like) The plot is defined by the theme. Every interaction.

Her mother is purely there to act as an obstacle to the transformation. She's there to artificially keep her "innocent".

Thomas is there as the corruptor, the guardian/mentor figure to begin the transformation.

Lily as a direct personification of the Black Swan and Nina's sexual awakening.

Beth represents the dangers of the transformation.

All the motifs used (the Pink, the shoes, the dancing things in the subway , her inability to cook an egg, the rash etc) are there just to illuminate the theme.

However it began, the whole thing has been moulded into a cohesive whole to represent the unifying vision of the theme. The film is even more focussed, ripping out anything that deviates from the message.

THEME: In the visual arts, a theme is a broad idea or a message conveyed by a work, such as a performance, a painting, or a motion picture. This message is usually about life, society or human nature. Themes are the fundamental and often universal ideas explored in a work.

The "FUNDAMENTAL" ideas explored. You can't discuss this script without them, because everything that's in the script has been consciously created to reveal the theme.

It is the fundamental, unfying vision of each individual element.  

All cinema is about, reducing it to its most basic form, is Juxtaposition.

Juxtaposition is the placement of two things (usually abstract concepts, though it can refer to physical objects) near each other.

White Swan vs Black Swan
Nina vs Lily
Erica vs Thomas
etc.

These juxtapositions create the meaning. Unless a script is properly constructed, it will not have a strong theme. It is not universal, far from it.

Very, very few pre pro scripts have an identifiable theme. They are just plot. Things happen for no real reason, characters don't really represent any particular values. It's why they are often so hard to read because you can go through 50 pages and not have a clue what the thing is supposed to be about.

The thing that you consider unworthy of discussion is the very basis of what helps to create such focused scripts...it enables people to understand what's important in a script and dispense with what's unnecessary.

Of course, it also depends on the type of film you're making. The more high brow, the higher the importance will be placed on theme, generally.

Rick.

Quoted from dmc2011 But again, I get confused, cause they say SHOW don't TELL.  ugh!

I can totally understand the confusion. I laboured under the same misapprehension for a while.

What you want is CLARITY.

You give the visuals (eg Nina breathing hard, and not looking..and then you are free to clarify why for the reader..eg she's embarrased).

Character reactions are not unfilmmable because humans are expert at reading body language and good actors whole purpose is to be able to deliver realistic performances.