Quoted from Scar Tissue Films We should stop these goddamn discussions and just write a fucking cunting script.

Whatsa "cunting" script?
That don't sound like something I wanna read.

Quoted from Scar Tissue Films Anyway, we're doing it AGAIN!!!! We should stop these goddamn discussions and just write a fucking cunting script. Let me worry about the theme and you can sort out all the widows and orphans to your heart's content. There's a guy with $30M to burn who wants an action script. Let's get it on.

Woah!   I'm working on it, but I've learned that I will not sell my soul to the devil by overdoing what is overdone and I will enjoy my life while I'm learning.

I will not become Nina, and die trapped inside of a claustrophobic world without attending to other people and things that matter also.

Yes though, yes! Write!  

Sandra

OK, Rick, fair enough.  You did respond to most of my points now and you even agreed, as much as you seem to not want to, on a few things.  I appreciate that.

Back to the asides and unfilmables for a second.

In terms of character descriptions, character defining, and even character action/reactions, I'll agree that some "unfilmables" are fine and even work better than trying to work around using them.

"Nina's scared."  "Nina's ashamed."  "Nina's excited." - All are fine depending on how they're used.  They don't take up extra space, and probably take up less, because they're so simple and "universal" things that they're immediately understood.

I'll never agree that introing a character, who's asleep and just waking up, by "telling" us her personality and demeanor, is acceptable, or the right way to go about it.  As I've said a few times, it's both cheap and it's a cheat.  Basically, it's the writer setting us up for what's to follow.  If that is indeed her personality, we should be able to pick up on that a few minutes in, based on her actions, reactions, and dialogue.  It just isn't fair to incorporate this novelistic approach to a script, as we cannot see any back story, nor can we read her mind.

And, let's go back to the aside about the shoes hanging in Nina's room.  There are many examples of this throughout this script, and again, I cannot agree that it's either acceptable or correct.

In this example, we have our writer telling us why the "shot" is important, just in case we don't get it from the actual words.  To go over the top to try and stress my point, imagine a SUPER being flashed on the screen, as this scene plays on film, to make sure all the viewers understand it's relevance.

And let's also understand that not every viewer will associate the meaning of the fact that Nina has been dancing since she was a child, based on seeing a bunch of ballet shoes of all sizes, stapled to her ceiling.

But then again, who really cares about this fact?  As far as I'm concerned it goes without saying that most professional dancers, and probably especially ballet dancers, have been doing this their entire life, as the commitment is pretty much required.

So, let's do an over the top example that pretty much relates to what we have here and see what your thoughts are.

We've got a horror movie about a guy who flips out after his wife and son die, and goes on a killing spree.

We're in his house and are just getting to meet him.

"A pair of eyes open.  They belong to MARK, late 40's.  Although inviting and honest, these eyes hide the madman that he has become.

A picture on the nightstand shows Mark with a high powered rifle, holding up the head of a dead TWELVE POINT BUCK, which testifies to the fact that he is an avid hunter.

Another picture shows Mark with his wife, MARGIE, and son, CLYDE, in happier times, and we see that he was a loving father and husband."

You see what I'm trying to say here, guys and gals?  Chris made a good point about not knowing the level of your readers, but most things should be crystal clear when it comes to this stuff and adding writer asides not only isn't necessary, it's irritating and wastes lines.

Well, I can do a mean Rom Com...

Quoted from Dreamscale I'll never agree that introing a character, who's asleep and just waking up, by "telling" us her personality and demeanor, is acceptable, or the right way to go about it.  As I've said a few times, it's both cheap and it's a cheat.  Basically, it's the writer setting us up for what's to follow.  If that is indeed her personality, we should be able to pick up on that a few minutes in, based on her actions, reactions, and dialogue.  It just isn't fair to incorporate this novelistic approach to a script, as we cannot see any back story, nor can we read her mind.

"They belong to the same dancer, NINA.  Self-conscious and hungry for approval, Nina hides her insecurity behind a sweet, likeable facade."

A director and film crew, I think, would see this is a challenge.  The actor certainly would.

The job falls mainly to Ms. Portman.  Can she manage to exude an air of insecurity while maintaining a sweet, likeable facade?  Lots of eye work there, for an actor with a naturally "sweet" face.

But the director, DP, art, and makeup are all thinking about it too.  Art's wondering if they can sneak a mirror into the frame, or barring that, an object or painting that represents the idea of weakness behind a sweet facade; wondering where they can put lipstick or something else which suggests a hunger for approval.  Makeup's thinking that they're going to push the makeup a bit so that we're a little bit more aware of it -- makeup naturally evokes the idea of  facade -- and to increase the "sweet" appearance.  The DP's brushing up on lighting in 50s noir to see how people have lit before to achieve the idea of insecurity and inner turmoil.  The director's looking at storyboards and notes, considering how the last scene was storyboarded and how its transition to this one might be used to enhance the idea of insecurity, considering colour work he might want to associate with Nina, or with insecurity, planning his frame to convey Nina's relative power in the scene (maybe he's thinking, for example, that we should be above her eye level so we have power over her, and maybe some extra headroom to contribute to that, maybe also placing her in center frame, which tends to make Western audiences uncomfortable...just examples).

And at the end when the movie comes out, maybe they have managed to convey all that unfilmable stuff to the audience.

Jeffrey, Jeffrey.

You have very strong opinions, and that's fine. I can't put a gun against your headand make you change your mind, all I can do is point some things out and give a different opinion, mainly for the benefit of others.

It is an accepted, and in some circles, an expected, practice to introduce a character's personality when we first meet them. The rationale is that you get a quick, dirty, low down on who they are that tells you how you are supposed to read and understand their character/dialogue.  It is for the sake of clarity and so people don't have to read 30 or 40 pages to get a grasp on who or what the character is.

It is not incorrect to do it.

As for the shoes, you're now bringing what the audience will get from it. If you think they're too dumb to get visual clues like that, fine, don't use them, but they are the very basis of visual story-telling...how to create understanding of people and their environment wihtout having to explain everything.

It's really good writing. Not only does it show the length of time she's been dancing, it shows how obsessive and ordered her nature is, it also shows that she's been stuck in that same room all her life. All these crucial little details about the character being built up. It's excellent writing, it really is. It's exactly what screenwriters (writers who write for the SCREEN) should be doing.

And you're right..it's throughout the script! The writer is constantly reinforcing the theme, the characters, the story with visual motifs. It's a real masterclass in visual writing. It's easy to do, it's obvious...but very few pre-pro's write in such a way.

A lot of these kind of things work on a subconscious level as well. People understand them in ways that they perhaps couldn't relate, but nonetheless effect them.

Your example isn't worth getting into, because it's not doing what the writer does here. For instance, your buck example is a singular one...if you had ten pictures, then it would be acceptable.

That being said, it does perhaps provide a useful point of reference if you really want me to get into the differences.

Rick, I am all for visual writing.  I hope you know that.

The point that you continually overlook is the aside(s) from the writer, not the visual itself.

The visual of the shoes is great.  The aside, "they testify to how long she has been a ballet dancer" is what I am against.  It is completely unnecessary.  It wastes a line here.  This kind of thing should not be done in a Spec screenplay.

If the visual itself isn't strong enough, or clear enough to get the point across, maybe it shouldn't be used at all.  And, I'm not suggesting that either.

In my over the top example, let's say there are numerous pictures of him in hunting shots, or in loving family moment shots.  That/those in itself should get the point across, and the goofy asides I threw in, were to show how unnecessary such asides are, in general.

That is the point I'm trying to stress.  That is what I'm trying to debate, because the more examples of these throughout a script, the more bloated the script becomes, and there has to be a point when you say and "see" that enough is enough, and you realize what the culprit actually is.

You guys don't seem to think it's an issue here at 129 pages, which astounds me.  What if it was 149 pages?  Would that be a clue that there are problems with the writing?  How about 169 pages for a film that will run for an hour and 45 minutes?

Where do you draw the line and when do you agree that these literary devices can be a problem for a Spec script and do not transfer to film?

I actually see your point Blue about the asides, even though I do like them, it helps the script flow... but if it is going to "flow" onto 149 pages, then yes, that is too much!!

Maybe they can cut the asides down a little... instead of "they testify to how long she has been a ballet dancer"  - She has been in this room and a dancer for along time... maybe a couple actions lines could have been combined by these asides.

maybe  if they were used less and more effectively it wouldn't be a problem.

I am just saying I get what you are saying.  Both of you make such valid observations!

Hey dmc, funny, how you call me "blue".  That's simply a color associated with the number of posts a member has.  I'm Jeff.

Not to be argumentative here     but my entire point is that these aides add page length, so the last thing you'd want to do is add more lines with description.

The whole point is that a picture can tell a thousand words, so your visual writing should convey what it's supposed to, without you adding asides as to what the meaning of the visual is.

Know what I'm saying?

Whoops, sorry Jeff, just saw the Blue part!    

I know exactly what you mean.. I do think that being able to describe something visually should be enough..  I wish I were better at it and I hope it come with practice!

It's really hard... but I think in a script that got that kind of $$$ it should have been pretty tight... but I also think it was really great read.

So I am kind of like.. well, it sold!  So they must have done something right.. or it was the story, hook or whatever that sold it.

Here's a description that might be difficult to film,
page 2 of 129
"Her hair likewise in a bun, propped up by a cane."

I'm pretty sure they didn't use that image in the film.

Quoted from c m hall Here's a description that might be difficult to film, page 2 of 129 "Her hair likewise in a bun, propped up by a cane." I'm pretty sure they didn't use that image in the film.

He means this:

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres.....biw=1920&bih=878

I was wondering what is so hard to film about hair in a bun.  

you really think so?

I have no problems with physical descriptors like that at all.  It's simply adding visual detail.

Is it necessary?  Of course not, but is there anything technically wrong with it?  Definitely not.