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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Discussion of...     General Chat  ›  I'll just leave this one here... Moderators: bert
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  Author    I'll just leave this one here...  (currently 5076 views)
Andrew
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 8:40pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from eldave1


The economic left elected Biden. Bernie was rejected because his solutions were too extreme.


Opposition to Trump elected Biden at the general.

Motivation to beat Trump elected Biden at the primaries.

Had Biden been up against a sensible Republican, he would have lost. No doubt. And the reason being was he was a vessel for the woke. Even though he himself is obviously not woke.

If Biden is up against a sensible Republican in 2024, he'll lose. People do not like that he is a vessel for the woke. It just happened that was slightly more popular than Trump.

Trump should've been annhilated at the general.


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Andrew
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 8:41pm Report to Moderator
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Anyway, this is me for the day x


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eldave1
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 8:41pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Andrew


Therein lies the problem. It sounds nice and sensible, but we have to quantify what those procedures and processes are. When those questions are asked, the very act of questioning is used as evidence of the thesis, i.e. a white person asking this is unwilling to accept their white privilege, hence their defensiveness.

It's obviously a dumb, transparent tactic, but is extremely effective when people have no backbone to call it out.

If anyone makes a claim that requires proof, then of course they're expected to provide prood to substantiate the claim. The woke response is that the very nature of that (claims requiring proof) is a construct of white supremacy, and was baked into the idea of objectivity itself which is to support and protect white men.


Because it is nice and sensible.

It is not difficult to quantify what those procedures and processes are. I have already laid out several examples and could lay out dozens more - because I am not sure that moves the needle for you.

I think we are here:

Past obvious and documented racism (slavery, Jim Crow, black voter suppression) certainly have had an impact on the current state of the black race. I believe that is woke thinking and I am a fan.

That merely eliminating racist processes and barriers does not immediately result in equality of outcomes given the relative starting points. I believe that is woke thinking and I am a fan.

That it is not productive or effective to create and implement solutions based on race when the disadvantage (in most cases - there are still exceptions) are manifested in economic disparity.  Address that disparity and you will address much, but not all, of the problem.




My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 8:42pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Andrew


Opposition to Trump elected Biden at the general.

Motivation to beat Trump elected Biden at the primaries.

Had Biden been up against a sensible Republican, he would have lost. No doubt. And the reason being was he was a vessel for the woke. Even though he himself is obviously not woke.

If Biden is up against a sensible Republican in 2024, he'll lose. People do not like that he is a vessel for the woke. It just happened that was slightly more popular than Trump.

Trump should've been annhilated at the general.


Total conjecture there, mate.  Especially sense we have a long history of Democrats beating sensible Republicans. For all you know - your average Republican could have been slaughtered by Biden and that the only reason it was so close was the fervent nature of the Trump cultists.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 8:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Andrew


Woke-ism / whatever you want to call it is extreme. The ideas inclusive in a coherent body of ideas (white supremacy, white privilege, cultural appropriation, intersetionality, and on and on and on) is what "woke" is. Not some fluffy and inherently meaningless term used previously to describe a mindset. This appropriation of woke was done by the very people pushing the ideas I just mentioned. That's the issue. And these ideas are inherently illiberal. By definition.


I believe there is a moderate and reasonable "woke".


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 8:48pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Andrew
Anyway, this is me for the day x


Cool - I'm exhausted

Good discussion.


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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_ghostwriters
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 9:53pm Report to Moderator
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This "woke" stuff is not the first time.  Books by Kimball. Eros , Civilization were labeled "the bible of the Counterculture (1955) also "One Dimensional Man 1964 points to exactly what's going on today? Although I do not agree with the solutions/alternatives he puts forward, this book 'woke' me up...

Carry on...



Revision History (1 edits)
_ghostwriters  -  June 7th, 2021, 10:10pm
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eldave1
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 10:17pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from _ghostwriters
This "woke" stuff is not the first time.  Books by Kimball. Eros , Civilization were labeled "the bible of the Counterculture (1955) also "One Dimensional Man 1964 points to exactly what's going on today? Although I do not agree with the solutions/alternatives he puts forward, this book 'woke' me up...

Carry on...


Damn. I thought it started with Katy Perry (I'm wide awake


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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_ghostwriters
Posted: June 7th, 2021, 10:19pm Report to Moderator
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Hahaha! Too funny, Dave.


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Heretic
Posted: June 8th, 2021, 1:21pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from _ghostwriters
This "woke" stuff is not the first time.  Books by Kimball.


Ha! Love the Marcuse shoutout.

And Kimball's a great example of someone who's been beating this drum since the 80s. From Tenured Radicals to now, the feminist tyranny always seems to be just around the corner.

(Well not quite to now, because recently Kimball's spending his time tweeting about the "Wuhan-Fauci flu," LOL)


Quoted from eldave1
Damn. I thought it started with Katy Perry


Not to mention when Kesha woke up in the morning feeling like P. Diddy.


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Andrew
Posted: June 8th, 2021, 4:21pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from eldave1


Because it is nice and sensible.

It is not difficult to quantify what those procedures and processes are. I have already laid out several examples and could lay out dozens more - because I am not sure that moves the needle for you.

I think we are here:

Past obvious and documented racism (slavery, Jim Crow, black voter suppression) certainly have had an impact on the current state of the black race. I believe that is woke thinking and I am a fan.

That merely eliminating racist processes and barriers does not immediately result in equality of outcomes given the relative starting points. I believe that is woke thinking and I am a fan.

That it is not productive or effective to create and implement solutions based on race when the disadvantage (in most cases - there are still exceptions) are manifested in economic disparity.  Address that disparity and you will address much, but not all, of the problem.




This is the thing... those first two points are not woke.

To recognise legacy in previous discrimination is not a woke position. The reality is the woke have successfully rebranded all attempts to fight racism as 'woke' (both when the ideas are woke, and the ideas are liberal - two distinct prospects) and framed all criticism of woke ideas as racism / support (tacit / 'unconscious') of racism.

It's a great trick, but it's not reality.

Woke is Meghan Markle framing all criticism of her as racism; woke is Oprah Winfrey lecturing millions of poor white people as holding privilege.

MLK was liberal, and his solutions (colourblindness, value the individual, reject race essentialism) were liberal. The woke do not support colourblindness, which they see as perpetuating racism; the woke do not value the individual, because their frame of reference is Focault, i.e. knowledge production and power is a battle of groups; the woke support race essentialism, i.e. the nascent black supremacy movement embodied in ideas such as #black excellence, as Terry Crews rightly called out.

Second point: again, this is recognition of legacy, and the liberalism of Clinton, for example, is a body of thought valuing incremental change.

No one denies legacy impacts outcomes, and I reference that as racial multipliers.


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Andrew
Posted: June 8th, 2021, 4:21pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from eldave1


Cool - I'm exhausted

Good discussion.




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_ghostwriters
Posted: June 8th, 2021, 5:33pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Heretic


Ha! Love the Marcuse shoutout.

And Kimball's a great example of someone who's been beating this drum since the 80s. From Tenured Radicals to now, the feminist tyranny always seems to be just around the corner.

(Well not quite to now, because recently Kimball's spending his time tweeting about the "Wuhan-Fauci flu," LOL)

Not to mention when Kesha woke up in the morning feeling like P. Diddy.


LMAO. -Andrea



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LC
Posted: June 8th, 2021, 7:26pm Report to Moderator
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This thread should really be called:
I'll keep coming back to this...

Btw, loving the avatar A & R.


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eldave1
Posted: June 8th, 2021, 8:52pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Andrew


This is the thing... those first two points are not woke.

To recognise legacy in previous discrimination is not a woke position. The reality is the woke have successfully rebranded all attempts to fight racism as 'woke' (both when the ideas are woke, and the ideas are liberal - two distinct prospects) and framed all criticism of woke ideas as racism / support (tacit / 'unconscious') of racism.

It's a great trick, but it's not reality.

Woke is Meghan Markle framing all criticism of her as racism; woke is Oprah Winfrey lecturing millions of poor white people as holding privilege.

MLK was liberal, and his solutions (colourblindness, value the individual, reject race essentialism) were liberal. The woke do not support colourblindness, which they see as perpetuating racism; the woke do not value the individual, because their frame of reference is Focault, i.e. knowledge production and power is a battle of groups; the woke support race essentialism, i.e. the nascent black supremacy movement embodied in ideas such as #black excellence, as Terry Crews rightly called out.

Second point: again, this is recognition of legacy, and the liberalism of Clinton, for example, is a body of thought valuing incremental change.

No one denies legacy impacts outcomes, and I reference that as racial multipliers.


This is the thing... those first two things are indeed woke.

And therein lies our problem. I do not cede to you the ground to define it nor you to me. We both could post dozens of links supporting our views on the origins and meaning of woke and will never reach consensus.  So, the general debate on woke as a good or bad thing really can go nowhere.

I do know this. The Right uses the term as a pejorative - much like they did with socialism when it came to health care and tax hikes.  They also escalate the intensity of the impact. They do this with a lot of things. e.g., Dr Suess and Mr. Potato head the evil residue of cancel culture while not recognizing things such as banning gays from the military or from getting married was a far more devasting and impactful form of cancel culture.  So.... I've become a bit sensitive to the everything wrong with woke diatribe-filled videos and articles when I know many of them are really intended to be everything wrong with the Left.

SO - we ain't going to agree on what woke means. Yet - I think we probably agree largely on all the specific issues. e.g., neither of us would advocate for race-based selection processes. Neither of us would ignore the impact of racism in the criminal justice system.  So, it seems to me that we agree on most things other than the definition.

So, if we can agree on a term like "extreme wokeisn - or dysfunctional wokeism - we probably would find areas of disagreement.

It would be here - I am not alarmed or all that concerned about extreme wokeism because I think it has a relatively short life cycle and believe it will die a natural death. Capitalism is just too strong a force not to make it so.

So - back to the original video. My view remains the same - I thought it was pretty much overblown hackery.  Yeah - there were some cringe-worthy woke moments in movies - none of which are going to destroy the industry as there are ten-fold more non-woke roles and characters and I thought many of the examples cited by the video author were just flat out wrong.  She sets out this premise - that a female protag/hero must earn her stripes in order to be valid and "non-woke". I say bullshit. That is an absolute standard never applied to male protags/heroes - so why women?  She wouldn't have batted an eye at the Laura Dern character had it been the exact same dialogue uttered by a male.  Basically, I thought it was weak sauce at best.








My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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