Quoted from Andrew Surely when people make bold claims about a society being a patriarchal white supremacy, it’s fair game to hold the claims to account? That’s what the videos I’ve shared seek to do. It’s easy to try and frame it as part of the political right / left axis to dismiss the criticism, but surely you agree bold claims require clear evidence?

It's guilty until proven innocent now, Dude. Haven't you heard? lol

Quoted from Andrew Surely when people make bold claims about a society being a patriarchal white supremacy, it’s fair game to hold the claims to account?

Not what I took to be the original topic, but sure! Isn't it odd, then, that none of these people and none of those claims have been cited anywhere in order to be held to account?

This is kinda how I feel: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/05/the-real-dangerous-ideas

Quoted from Heretic Not what I took to be the original topic, but sure! Isn't it odd, then, that none of these people and none of those claims have been cited anywhere in order to be held to account? This is kinda how I feel: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/05/the-real-dangerous-ideas

You’re characterising the criticisms as being OWN THE LIBZ, when it’s really not that.

All of the videos highlight the current issues with the excesses of wokeism. As stated in post yesterday, the range of thinking calling this crap out extends far beyond conservatives circles. This isn’t party political in nature.

The main issue to highlight is the response to wokeism isn’t a fig leaf to be racist / sexist or any-ist, because the woke are comprised of people of all identities, or to engage in political tit-for-tats (although some conservatives are so doing). The issue is with the ideas. Which suck. And divide. And reject liberalism.

Quoted from Andrew You’re characterising the criticisms as being OWN THE LIBZ, when it’s really not that. All of the videos highlight the current issues with the excesses of wokeism. As stated in post yesterday, the range of thinking calling this crap out extends far beyond conservatives circles. This isn’t party political in nature. The main issue to highlight is the response to wokeism isn’t a fig leaf to be racist / sexist or any-ist, because the woke are comprised of people of all identities, or to engage in political tit-for-tats (although some conservatives are so doing). The issue is with the ideas. Which suck. And divide. And reject liberalism.

The alignment of the CIA, FBI, Military, media, entertainment with these woke ideologies is the scary part. The left is already comfortable with abortion, population control, euthanasia, etc. Combine that with a woke government, press, entertainment, etc. YIKES.

Quoted from Andrew The issue is with the ideas. Which suck. And divide. And reject liberalism.

I am all for holding ideas to account. If that is what you are trying to do, then the first step would seem to be indicating exactly what/whose ideas you are holding to account. This, again, has been the intent of most of my previous questions.

But as the article I posted suggests, most of this discourse seems to be people explaining what the "woke" think in order to criticize it, rather than people explaining who the "woke" theorists/activists/commentators are and then arguing with their ideas.

Quoted from Heretic I am all for holding ideas to account. If that is what you are trying to do, then the first step would seem to be indicating exactly what/whose ideas you are holding to account. This, again, has been the intent of most of my previous questions. But as the article I posted suggests, most of this discourse seems to be people explaining what the "woke" think in order to criticize it, rather than people explaining who the "woke" theorists/activists/commentators are and then arguing with their ideas.

That’s fair.

Does my post from yesterday not touch on specific issues? There I touched on it briefly. A problem is trying to condense it down to anything resembling digestible on a forum. It’s the kind of chat we could do in person over drinks, but very difficult to do in this medium without tripping wires. There’s no doubt we come from a broadly similar political persuasion, but the issue of wokeness is constantly proving to be troublesome to adequately tackle.

Or are you referring to the postmodern deep dive?

We can start by stopping using woke is a pejorative.

OXFORD Woke: alert to injustice in society, especially racism.

Count me in.

Defining woke or wokeism by it's most extreme and inane extensions is too broad a brush stroke.  It would be like me describing what religion is by showing videos of the hideous acts of the Westboro Baptist church and saying - see what religion can lead to? And - far more people on the right endorse religion than those on the left.

Sometimes being woke ain't bad. Here - Jordan Peterson becomes woke.



And bless him for it.  

Quoted from eldave1 We can start by stopping using woke is a pejorative. OXFORD Woke: alert to injustice in society, especially racism. Count me in. Defining woke or wokeism by it's most extreme and inane extensions is too broad a brush stroke.  It would be like me describing what religion is by showing videos of the hideous acts of the Westboro Baptist church and saying - see what religion can lead to? And - far more people on the right endorse religion than those on the left. Sometimes being woke ain't bad. Here - Jordan Peterson becomes woke. And bless him for it.

The interviewer said the civil rights movement made our society better. I’m genuinely curious when I ask this: Do you agree? Because, according to “the woke”, America is still horrifically racist. Either the civil rights movement worked, or it did not. If it did not, then the interviewer was wrong in his premise. If it did, then America is not the racist hell hole the left makes it out to be.

Can the government legislate morality?

Should a black restaurant owner be forced to serve an avowed white racist? I would sure hope not, but that interviewer might insist otherwise, and if he won’t, well then, he’s just as hypocritical as he was making Peterson out to be - when, they’re both hypocrites on this issue. Every statist is. The only way to not be a hypocrite on this matter is to be libertarian about it.

But then we circle back around to the idea that the civil-rights act made people non-racist. Around and around, we go.

Quoted from Robert Timsah Should a black restaurant owner be forced to serve an avowed white racist? I would sure hope not. The only way to not be a hypocrite on this matter is to be libertarian about it.

I am going to start by agreeing with you. I lean liberal, but am actually kind of on the side of those cake shop owners, too.

But now, does this logic also apply to social media platforms like Twitter? (Or SimplyScripts, for that matter)

Would a libertarian force them to host content they find objectionable?

Quoted from bert I am going to start by agreeing with you. I lean liberal, but am actually kind of on the side of those cake shop owners, too. But now, does this logic also apply to social media platforms like Twitter? (Or SimplyScripts, for that matter) Would a libertarian force them to host content they find objectionable?

Yes the Civil Rights Movement made things better. It did not make things optimal. I don't quite grasp why you believe that progress is equivalent to completion. Anyway oh, yes it made it better. Now, should a black restaurant owner be required to serve an avowed racist. That's a very interesting proposition. As we both know, the traditional we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone doesn't really mean that. You don't have the right refuse service based on gender, race, other factors. But I will admit you present a challenging question. My answer is no. They should not have that right. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I think you pointed out a sticky widget for sure.

Why I say no. I don't believe a Jew should be allowed to refuse service to a Muslim, or an Athiest refuse service to a Christian.  I.e. service should not be refused based on belief.  That would include our racist.

Quoted from bert I am going to start by agreeing with you. I lean liberal, but am actually kind of on the side of those cake shop owners, too. But now, does this logic also apply to social media platforms like Twitter? (Or SimplyScripts, for that matter) Would a libertarian force them to host content they find objectionable?

No. Republicans, however, might.

Quoted from eldave1 I don't believe a Jew should be allowed to refuse service to a Muslim, or an Athiest refuse service to a Christian.  I.e. service should not be refused based on belief.  That would include our racist.

As a small business owner, I can tell you that we 100% refuse to serve assholes. But, that's pretty much it.

Quoted from eldave1 Yes the Civil Rights Movement made things better. It did not make things optimal. I don't quite grasp why you believe that progress is equivalent to completion. Anyway oh, yes it made it better. Now, should a black restaurant owner be required to serve an avowed racist. That's a very interesting proposition. As we both know, the traditional we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone doesn't really mean that. You don't have the right refuse service based on gender, race, other factors. But I will admit you present a challenging question. My answer is no. They should not have that right. I'm willing to be convinced otherwise. I think you pointed out a sticky widget for sure. Why I say no. I don't believe a Jew should be allowed to refuse service to a Muslim, or an Athiest refuse service to a Christian.  I.e. service should not be refused based on belief.  That would include our racist.

It's been a while since my Ron Paul days to discuss these things. I forgot how wild they can get. Somebody's going to ask who's going to build the roads!?

Because of the Civil Rights Act, the government might force a black business owner, at gun point, to feed an actual KKK grand wizard racist? That can't be right, but it might be.

This is what Peterson was caught in. It's unwinnable, really. No matter what, someone's coming out a hypocrite, inconsistent or a racist.

I would error more on the side of whatever uses the least amount of force, but that ALWAYS puts me in the minority. As such, let business owners be asshoes if they wish. We'll be fine.

Quoted from Grandma Bear As a small business owner, I can tell you that we 100% refuse to serve assholes. But, that's pretty much it.

Same here, but we may be breaking the law.  

Quoted from Grandma Bear As a small business owner, I can tell you that we 100% refuse to serve assholes. But, that's pretty much it.

I think you're safe as long as you refuse service to all assholes regardless of race or religion