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SimplyScripts Screenwriting Discussion Board    Discussion of...     General Chat  ›  I'll just leave this one here... Moderators: bert
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  Author    I'll just leave this one here...  (currently 4862 views)
bert
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 1:44pm Report to Moderator
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Quick moderator check-in, amazed at the level of thoughtful, civilized discourse going on here.

Back in "the day" a thread like this would have melted the boards.

Kudos to those engaged with this.  Carry on.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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Max Ruddock
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 1:48pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from bert
Quick moderator check-in, amazed at the level of thoughtful, civilized discourse going on here.

Back in "the day" a thread like this would have melted the boards.

Kudos to those engaged with this.  Carry on.


Nazi!

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Max Ruddock
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 1:50pm Report to Moderator
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Hopefully that'll bring things back to the normal. I was worried the internet would break if someone wasn't willing to course-correct us here.
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PKCardinal
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 2:46pm Report to Moderator
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I've been actively trying to stay out of this, since these kind of things never seem to actually change anyone's minds and only serve as another way for people to divide themselves into camps...

But, I failed to stay out of it once, and now I'll make it twice...

Is there any room in this discussion for "woke" to be an actively held, legitimate stance? I mean, in this discussion, if a film has a "woke" message, it feels like it's automatically illegitimate and forced on us/them/whoever.

If an artist (writer, director, producer) thinks that racism is a problem and wants to make a film about it... isn't that legitimate artistic expression?

If a gay director wants to make a film centered on a lesbian lead... why is that somehow automatically less? In the anti-woke world, that director is dismissed out of hand as a puppet for the woke mob. Is that fair?

I'm just saying... for a moment, consider that it's possible for people to have legitimate, artistic, political, personal reasons for making "woke" material.


PaulKWrites.com

60 Feet Under - Low budget, contained thriller/Feature
The Hand of God - Low budget, semi-contained thriller/Feature
Wait Till Next Year - Disney-style family sports comedy/Feature

Many shorts available for production: comedy, thriller, drama, light horror
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Zack
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 3:03pm Report to Moderator
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I believe The Invisible Man had some woke messages, but it was subtle and smart about it. It was never distracting. Really enjoyed the movie.


WITCH HUNT - horror, 77 pgs

THE 1997 TEXAS CHAIN SAW MASSACRE - horror, 82 pgs

HERE COMES THE BOGEYMAN - horror, 24 pgs
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SteveClark
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 3:07pm Report to Moderator
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Itís a phase. Hollywood has done dumb stuff before, and will do it again. Right now itís hot, but in six months itíll be on to the next thing.

Hollywood, the Netflix show, was woke af. Way over the top trying to reimagine/correct a historical slight. Iíd be surprised if it got picked up for a second season. It beat you over the head with the message.

Personally, I think video editorials like this amount to nothing more than click bait. Someone who a) canít take it anymore or b) just wants the views, views and more views.


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PKCardinal
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 3:16pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from SteveClark


Hollywood, the Netflix show, was woke af. Way over the top trying to reimagine/correct a historical slight. Iíd be surprised if it got picked up for a second season. It beat you over the head with the message.



Yes, maybe we can all agree on one thing... bad writing/material should be stamped out.

The Newsroom became unwatchable. I imagine Aaron Sorkin and I agree on much more than not... but, that show was SOOOO preachy it was boring. I finally turned it off. West Wing, one of my favorite shows ever... rode that line. Very close to being too much. I probably wouldn't have watched another season.

Point is... if something is good, we'll probably watch it, no matter the message. If it's bad, we won't. Double that for funny. I always say... you can do anything you want, as long as you're funny.  The funnier you are, the safer you are.

I'm probably way off topic... so, I'll punch out.


PaulKWrites.com

60 Feet Under - Low budget, contained thriller/Feature
The Hand of God - Low budget, semi-contained thriller/Feature
Wait Till Next Year - Disney-style family sports comedy/Feature

Many shorts available for production: comedy, thriller, drama, light horror
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Robert Timsah
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 4:01pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from PKCardinal
I've been actively trying to stay out of this, since these kind of things never seem to actually change anyone's minds and only serve as another way for people to divide themselves into camps...

But, I failed to stay out of it once, and now I'll make it twice...

Is there any room in this discussion for "woke" to be an actively held, legitimate stance? I mean, in this discussion, if a film has a "woke" message, it feels like it's automatically illegitimate and forced on us/them/whoever.

If an artist (writer, director, producer) thinks that racism is a problem and wants to make a film about it... isn't that legitimate artistic expression?

If a gay director wants to make a film centered on a lesbian lead... why is that somehow automatically less? In the anti-woke world, that director is dismissed out of hand as a puppet for the woke mob. Is that fair?

I'm just saying... for a moment, consider that it's possible for people to have legitimate, artistic, political, personal reasons for making "woke" material.


In my opinion...

There is a significant difference between the bigoted, woke stuff and say something like Moonlight, which simply attempts to tell a story. Or The American President, (The West Wing) which has its politics, but is fair and well done. It doesn't beat you over the head. imo

The woke mob tends to steal cherished franchises and pervert it with their bigoted anti-white/anti-male messaging.

Is it just a coincidence they're targeting films which have been traditionally loved by straight, and often, white men? Why would people, obsessed with racial and gender differences and who often have disdain for men, have some great interest in SUPERMAN or BATMAN, other than to destroy it?

Just today I read this news story: Chicago Mayor Lori Lightfoot giving interviews only to journalists of color...


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PKCardinal
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 4:52pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from Robert Timsah


Is it just a coincidence they're targeting films which have been traditionally loved by straight, and often, white men? Why would people, obsessed with racial and gender differences and who often have disdain for men, have some great interest in SUPERMAN or BATMAN, other than to destroy it?



Some people honestly see a problem that by far, the majority of superheroes are white men. (I'm one of them.) Is it wrong for a black person to say, "Hey, I'd like to see someone that looks me portrayed in a heroic light?"

Additionally, put in the context that entertainment media has LONG portrayed black people as almost exclusively gang members or slaves, doesn't it make sense that a push for better black characters can come from a good place... and not some anti-white/anti-male place?

Why does equality equal anti-white/anti-male for so many people?

Finally, conservatives have brought this on themselves. They've been canceling people for hundreds of years. Turns out, people eventually get tired of it. You think Ellen DeGeneres felt picked on, to use your words, by: "people, obsessed with racial and gender differences and who often have disdain for [gays.]"

Of course, she did. So, when people like her demand to be treated like humans... it's not anti-male... it's pro decent human behavior.


PaulKWrites.com

60 Feet Under - Low budget, contained thriller/Feature
The Hand of God - Low budget, semi-contained thriller/Feature
Wait Till Next Year - Disney-style family sports comedy/Feature

Many shorts available for production: comedy, thriller, drama, light horror
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eldave1
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 5:18pm Report to Moderator
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Andrew:


Quoted Text
If anything, I think I probablty veer more traditional left, seeing as you identify as economically conservative.

I believe there are factors built into our systems that disadvantage people at the bottom, and likely to a degree greater than an economic conservative.


Just for clarification Ė when I say economically conservative, that is only in the context of I am favor of taxing at the level you want to spend.  e.g,, if you want a war with Iraq Ė tax to fund it. If you want to expand poverty programs Ė tax to fund it. I have no problem with big government per se. I have a problem with un-funded government. In my lifetime, both parties have been horrible on this. Dems are tax and spend. Republicans are Cut Taxes and spend. So in my view Republicans have been worse but neither party has been good.


Quoted Text
Broadly, my view is the left is good at diagnosing problems re: economics, but lousy at solutions., It's why the message of unfairness resonates, but the solutions are routinely rejected at elections. Because those on the economic left do not believe in moderation, they do not believe in compromise, and they believe they hold a monopoly on good intentions.


Totally disagree, unless you insert Radical left in your premise and recognize that is not the majority left.  Sanders and Warren didnít win the nomination Ė middle of the road Joe did. And obviously, the Left solutions are not rejected at the election Ė they just took over the Presidency, Senate and retained the House.


Quoted Text
Yes, there are conservatives who hold those views, too, but the right don't lose on core economic messages continually. And when I'm talking economic left, we all know this doesn't mean Obama, or Clinton. It means Sanders, and the idiot generation spearheaded by Ocasio-Cortez.


Okay Ė maybe I am having a terminology problem with you. In my mind, the ďLeftĒ includes Obama, Biden, Bill Clinton Ė you know Ė the ones that win elections.  I view it kind of like this - I'l use college as an example.

1. FAR LEFT = COLLEGE SHOULD BE FREE TO EVERYONE
2. LEFT = COLLEGE SHOULD BE AFFORDABLE AND AVAILABLE
3. RIGHT = COLLEGE SHOULD BE AFFORDABLE AND AVAILABLE
4. FAR RIGHT = YOU'RE ON YOUR OWN.

Now groups two and three certainly will have rational discussions about the degree of the problem and the best solutions. But the core principle isn't a left or right thing.  Groups 1 and 4 are on the lunatic fringe and will never reach agreement and contaminate the discussion by labeling these as Left and Right positions when they are in fact FAR LEFT and FAR RIGHT discussion.


Quoted Text
There's a reason woke politics generally don't appeal to the working class: they know your identity is not the reason for your situation in life. Can it exacerabate it? Yes. Define it? No. It's why many millions more white people are poor in the West than any other race. And by a great factor. It's like no one recognise demographics and the multiplying effect of majorities anymore. The working class reject the simplicity and posturing of wokeness beause they live it. They know the most fervent supporters of the woke viewpoint are wealthy "people of colour" and whites with a Jesus complex.


Again Ė this boils down to a lot of definitions.  If being woke means that you want to take Lincoln's name off of schools Ė yeah, youíre right. If woke means you believe that we ought not  fly confederate flags at State capitals Ė youíre wrong.

Thatís probably one of the reasons it is difficult to discuss wokeness in broad terms (i.e., is it good or bad?). For example, I think the 1619 project resulted from a a woke mentality and it sucks. I also think the need to eliminate no-knock warrants arose from a woke mentality and it is a good thing.


Quoted Text
Where I hope you're right is that the woke madness will be looked upon in years to come as a McCarythite moral panic. Regardless of whether or not it does, the ideas are borne for the very serious intentions of changing society and replacing liberalism. Liberalism  (the philosophy) is seen as a product of white men, by white men, for white men. It locks up all the evils of the past and ties it into liberalism, as opposed to recognising it is liberialism (with its core tenets of freedom of speech, the sanctity of the individual, etc) that has unpicked much of the evil of the past, and is our best chance of equalising opportunity going forward.


I believe it will not go away and instead morph into a much more optimal mindset as the crazy crap get filters out.  


Quoted Text
The one core theme that is often missed when it comes to the working class (I use this as a catch all for people of all races at the bottom end of the economic scale) is the embrace of individual responsibility. A concept, sadly, that the left has entirely abandoned.


No, they havenít in my view (see definition of Left above). I would argue that the many on the Left as I define them are merely trying to get frameworks that optimize the opportunity to exercise individual responsibility.


Quoted Text
So there is a strong holding to account for people blaming others, or failing to recognise the destructive behaviours that perpetuate outcomes. There's only so long you can blame "the system" for your lot in life.

So, really woke (or however we want to term the ideas we are all familair with) is a serious body of ideas used by a few to push a paradigm shift, and used by the many as a bourgeoisie display of moral viture, blithely unaware of the intention behind the ideas they're an empty vessel for. And that's really where I sit Hollywood, in the main.


Dysfguntional wokeism no more defines the Left than Q-anon defines the right.
====================================================
Again - I think we are probably not far off in may areas.  We're probably aguring about definitions.





My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 5:21pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from SteveClark
Itís a phase. Hollywood has done dumb stuff before, and will do it again. Right now itís hot, but in six months itíll be on to the next thing.

Hollywood, the Netflix show, was woke af. Way over the top trying to reimagine/correct a historical slight. Iíd be surprised if it got picked up for a second season. It beat you over the head with the message.

Personally, I think video editorials like this amount to nothing more than click bait. Someone who a) canít take it anymore or b) just wants the views, views and more views.


Concur


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 5:22pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from PKCardinal


Some people honestly see a problem that by far, the majority of superheroes are white men. (I'm one of them.) Is it wrong for a black person to say, "Hey, I'd like to see someone that looks me portrayed in a heroic light?"

Additionally, put in the context that entertainment media has LONG portrayed black people as almost exclusively gang members or slaves, doesn't it make sense that a push for better black characters can come from a good place... and not some anti-white/anti-male place?

Why does equality equal anti-white/anti-male for so many people?

Finally, conservatives have brought this on themselves. They've been canceling people for hundreds of years. Turns out, people eventually get tired of it. You think Ellen DeGeneres felt picked on, to use your words, by: "people, obsessed with racial and gender differences and who often have disdain for [gays.]"

Of course, she did. So, when people like her demand to be treated like humans... it's not anti-male... it's pro decent human behavior.


Concur!


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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eldave1
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 5:23pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from PKCardinal
I've been actively trying to stay out of this, since these kind of things never seem to actually change anyone's minds and only serve as another way for people to divide themselves into camps...

But, I failed to stay out of it once, and now I'll make it twice...

Is there any room in this discussion for "woke" to be an actively held, legitimate stance? I mean, in this discussion, if a film has a "woke" message, it feels like it's automatically illegitimate and forced on us/them/whoever.

If an artist (writer, director, producer) thinks that racism is a problem and wants to make a film about it... isn't that legitimate artistic expression?

If a gay director wants to make a film centered on a lesbian lead... why is that somehow automatically less? In the anti-woke world, that director is dismissed out of hand as a puppet for the woke mob. Is that fair?

I'm just saying... for a moment, consider that it's possible for people to have legitimate, artistic, political, personal reasons for making "woke" material.


Concur!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


My Scripts can all be seen here:

http://dlambertson.wix.com/scripts
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Robert Timsah
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 6:00pm Report to Moderator
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Quoted from PKCardinal


Some people honestly see a problem that by far, the majority of superheroes are white men. (I'm one of them.) Is it wrong for a black person to say, "Hey, I'd like to see someone that looks me portrayed in a heroic light?"

Additionally, put in the context that entertainment media has LONG portrayed black people as almost exclusively gang members or slaves, doesn't it make sense that a push for better black characters can come from a good place... and not some anti-white/anti-male place?

Why does equality equal anti-white/anti-male for so many people?

Finally, conservatives have brought this on themselves. They've been canceling people for hundreds of years. Turns out, people eventually get tired of it. You think Ellen DeGeneres felt picked on, to use your words, by: "people, obsessed with racial and gender differences and who often have disdain for [gays.]"

Of course, she did. So, when people like her demand to be treated like humans... it's not anti-male... it's pro decent human behavior.


If somebody genuinely wants a black or female superhero, they could, oh I don't know - create an original one instead of stealing from evil whitey.

Ironically,

If a white man or woman today tried to write a social justice script focusing on a young black woman you know what they'd hear? They shouldn't be writing it. "Let a person of color tell that story".

You can't win. Nobody can.

The mob of social justice doesn't WANT a female superhero because it would make a great film.

They want to SUBJECT people (men, especially) to a female superhero, because they get off on it.


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bert
Posted: May 20th, 2021, 6:03pm Report to Moderator
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Imagine being a straight white male and somehow thinking that it is you who are disadvantaged and oppressed.


Hey, it's my tiny, little IMDb!
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