Quoted from Andrew It's a real quirk to me that so much of my fellow left are completely unwilling to address the woke issue.

Nobody has yet been able to explain what the "woke issue" is in any concrete terms.

Questions of mine that might help me figure it out have gone unanswered:

Quoted from Heretic How often does this happen? Are there really large numbers of people whose otherwise successful careers have ended when they merely expressed an un-woke opinion?

Quoted from Heretic Is there a major Hollywood movie that has been "cancelled" by the woke? Is there a major Hollywood creative who has been "cancelled" by the woke?

If some insidious ideology has taken over Hollywood, why haven't we talked about a single concrete example of that ideology's effects here? Is it possibly because there are few to no concrete examples, because this is all internet nonsense?

It seems to me the chief complaint is just that Hollywood movies suck, and also contain woke messaging. Well, I watch absolutely everything, and the movies with no or anti-woke messaging also suck. So...

Quoted from Heretic Nobody has yet been able to explain what the "woke issue" is in any concrete terms. Questions of mine that might help me figure it out have gone unanswered: If some insidious ideology has taken over Hollywood, why haven't we talked about a single concrete example of that ideology's effects here? Is it possibly because there are few to no concrete examples, because this is all internet nonsense? It seems to me the chief complaint is just that Hollywood movies suck, and also contain woke messaging. Well, I watch absolutely everything, and the movies with no or anti-woke messaging also suck. So...

So, you do know what woke means.

With that out of the way, the cult of woke, or social justice, has in general turned film into a shit fest.

You're right, a film doesn't have to have a woke message for a film to suck, but a woke message means it will suck.

But I'm of the old school that a screenwriter shouldn't preach, nor hate the audience.

Robert Mckee's respect thine audience has been morphed into, call thine audience racist/sexist. 😂

Films have declined because story has been replaced with the cult of social justice. Even if the film does not have a social justice cause in it, many of the people choosing scripts, working on the films, ARE of the cult of that cult - or pretend to be.

And if you've ever encountered any of these woke people the one thing they lack is humility. This is why they are inherently bad at story. The left thinks they are already perfect and wonderful, and often that's how their leads are. The video posted above made reference to this.

The female or non white heroines are wonderful, and all the stupid white men below them need to get up to their level.

This is how they think as well as how they write. This is why, even if it's not a vehicle for social or gender justice, the films still suck. They're not so much writers, as they are preachers.

Quoted Text So, you do know what woke means.

Of course he does - he had said so. He said he doesn't know what the woke issue means in concrete terms. i.e., where is the specific damage.

Quoted Text With that out of the way, the cult of woke, or social justice, has in general turned film into a shit fest.

Guessing this is part of his question. So generally - films are a shit fest due to wokeness. So, on my ask something akin to - of these top box office films:


1     Bad Boys for Life     
2     1917
3     Sonic the Hedgehog     
4     Jumanji: The Next Level
5     Star Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker     
6     Birds of Prey     
7     Dolittle     
8     Little Women     
9     The Invisible Man     
10     The Call of the Wild     
11     Onward     
12     Tenet     
13     Knives Out     
14     Frozen II     
15     Spies in Disguise
16     The Gentlemen     
17     Just Mercy
18     The Croods: A New Age
19     Parasite
20     Fantasy Island

Which were ruined due to wokeness. If not these - was the next 20? The 20 after that???

Quoted Text Films have declined because story has been replaced with the cult of social justice. Even if the film does not have a social justice cause in it, many of the people choosing scripts, working on the films, ARE of the cult of that cult - or pretend to be.

See again - that's what he is asking - which films - which parts of them - has this happened too? Which films were not made because of wokeness?

Quoted Text And if you've ever encountered any of these woke people the one thing they lack is humility. This is why they are inherently bad at story.

Which ones?

Quoted Text The left thinks they are already perfect and wonderful, and often that's how their leads are. The video posted above made reference to this.

What is The Left - Is it Bill Mahr who rails against cancel culture. Bill Burr? James Carville? Obama????? (His quote = “This idea of purity and you’re never compromised and you’re always politically ‘woke’ and all that stuff,” Mr. Obama said. “You should get over that quickly.”
“The world is messy; there are ambiguities,” he continued. “People who do really good stuff have flaws.

Cancel Culture is not a Right or Left issue  - Isn't boycotting NFL games because players kneel during the anthem cancel culture? Isn't boycotting Coke because they were against Georgia's voting laws cancel culture. Isn't shut up and dribble cancel culture?

Quoted Text The female or non white heroines are wonderful, and all the stupid white men below them need to get up to their level.

Back to Ben's points - probably a few issues of this - but really, in the grand scheme of things - how many films didn't this really ruin?

Quoted Text This is how they think as well as how they write. This is why, even if it's not a vehicle for social or gender justice, the films still suck. They're not so much writers, as they are preachers.

Who are the "they" that shifted from writing to preaching.  Only when to tell if your statement makes sense. If you want to say that Michael Moore is more of a preacher than a documentarian - okay - I'm with you - get that.  But so are right-wingers like  Dinesh D’Souza. So, who are the writers you are specifically referencing?  

I think that was Ben's issue - specifics please so he can understand exactly what films and writers have ruined filmmaking due to wokeness.

Quoted from eldave1 As a note, the extreme after Trump hasn't just been the woke. Um... we had like an insurrection - remember? Those weren't woke people in the Capital or woke politicians wanting to throw out the vote. Add the Q-anon movement to that mix, egregious stabs at voter suppression, etc and I think you can see that of the extremes, the woke extreme is not near the worst of them. And my point is that it is a given to say that equalizing opportunity rather than outcome is the ideal - we agree 100% on that. The question remains - how does one achieve that within structures that are racists or gender-biased to start with?  Just stating the ideal doesn't do anything. And part of "woke" is a recognition that problems still remain and have remained for far too effing long and concrete things need to be done to correct that. In that view, woke should not be a pejorative any more than liberal or conservative should be. Andrew, it is odd we disagree on this so much sense I sense our actual politics are very much in-line with each other.  I am very much a fiscally conservative, moderate democrat.  Could be we are just talking at cross-purposes. Perhaps we only disagree not the degree of the impact. I think we both agree that dysfunctional wokeness is wrong/counter-productive. Perhaps our real disagreement is the severity and future of it's existence versus the problems it is attempting to address.  I probably think it is far less pervasive than you do and think it will fade into the sunset. Who knows.

Oh, absolutely I think we are broadly in similar political spaces.

If anything, I think I probablty veer more traditional left, seeing as you identify as economically conservative. I believe there are factors built into our systems that disadvantage people at the bottom, and likely to a degree greater than an economic conservative.

Broadly, my view is the left is good at diagnosing problems re: economics, but lousy at solutions., It's why the message of unfairness resonates, but the solutions are routinely rejected at elections. Because those on the economic left do not believe in moderation, they do not believe in compromise, and they believe they hold a monopoly on good intentions.

Yes, there are conservatives who hold those views, too, but the right don't lose on core economic messages continually. And when I'm talking economic left, we all know this doesn't mean Obama, or Clinton. It means Sanders, and the idiot generation spearheaded by Ocasio-Cortez.

There's a reason woke politics generally don't appeal to the working class: they know your identity is not the reason for your situation in life. Can it exacerabate it? Yes. Define it? No. It's why many millions more white people are poor in the West than any other race. And by a great factor. It's like no one recognise demographics and the multiplying effect of majorities anymore. The working class reject the simplicity and posturing of wokeness beause they live it. They know the most fervent supporters of the woke viewpoint are wealthy "people of colour" and whites with a Jesus complex.

Where I hope you're right is that the woke madness will be looked upon in years to come as a McCarythite moral panic. Regardless of whether or not it does, the ideas are borne for the very serious intentions of changing society and replacing liberalism. Liberalism  (the philosophy) is seen as a product of white men, by white men, for white men. It locks up all the evils of the past and ties it into liberalism, as opposed to recognising it is liberialism (with its core tenets of freedom of speech, the sanctity of the individual, etc) that has unpicked much of the evil of the past, and is our best chance of equalising opportunity going forward.

The one core theme that is often missed when it comes to the working class (I use this as a catch all for people of all races at the bottom end of the economic scale) is the embrace of individual responsibility. A concept, sadly, that the left has entirely abandoned. So there is a strong holding to account for people blaming others, or failing to recognise the destructive behaviours that perpetuate outcomes. There's only so long you can blame "the system" for your lot in life.

So, really woke (or however we want to term the ideas we are all familair with) is a serious body of ideas used by a few to push a paradigm shift, and used by the many as a bourgeoisie display of moral viture, blithely unaware of the intention behind the ideas they're an empty vessel for. And that's really where I sit Hollywood, in the main.

Quoted from Andrew The one core theme that is often missed when it comes to the working class (I use this as a catch all for people of all races at the bottom end of the economic scale) is the embrace of individual responsibility. A concept, sadly, that the left has entirely abandoned. So there is a strong holding to account for people blaming others, or failing to recognise the destructive behaviours that perpetuate outcomes. There's only so long you can blame "the system" for your lot in life. So, really woke (or however we want to term the ideas we are all familair with) is a serious body of ideas used by a few to push a paradigm shift, and used by the many as a bourgeoisie display of moral viture, blithely unaware of the intention behind the ideas they're an empty vessel for. And that's really where I sit Hollywood, in the main.

Preach!  

Quoted from Heretic Nobody has yet been able to explain what the "woke issue" is in any concrete terms. Questions of mine that might help me figure it out have gone unanswered: If some insidious ideology has taken over Hollywood, why haven't we talked about a single concrete example of that ideology's effects here? Is it possibly because there are few to no concrete examples, because this is all internet nonsense? It seems to me the chief complaint is just that Hollywood movies suck, and also contain woke messaging. Well, I watch absolutely everything, and the movies with no or anti-woke messaging also suck. So...

To be fair, I just really don't accept the premise of the questions.

You've framed the questions in a way that bolsters your view, whilst accepting the core basis that woke-ism is rampant. And undesirable. And negatively impacts film. I do beleve - and could be wrong - that it is because you're viewing the issue through the axis of left and right.

It's a case of having your cake and eating it

Quoted from eldave1 Of course he does - he had said so. He said he doesn't know what the woke issue means in concrete terms. i.e., where is the specific damage. Guessing this is part of his question. So generally - films are a shit fest due to wokeness. So, on my ask something akin to - of these top box office films: 1     Bad Boys for Life      2     1917 3     Sonic the Hedgehog      4     Jumanji: The Next Level 5     Star Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker      6     Birds of Prey      7     Dolittle      8     Little Women      9     The Invisible Man      10     The Call of the Wild      11     Onward      12     Tenet      13     Knives Out      14     Frozen II      15     Spies in Disguise 16     The Gentlemen      17     Just Mercy 18     The Croods: A New Age 19     Parasite 20     Fantasy Island Which were ruined due to wokeness. If not these - was the next 20? The 20 after that??? See again - that's what he is asking - which films - which parts of them - has this happened too? Which films were not made because of wokeness? Which ones? What is The Left - Is it Bill Mahr who rails against cancel culture. Bill Burr? James Carville? Obama????? (His quote = �This idea of purity and you�re never compromised and you�re always politically �woke� and all that stuff,� Mr. Obama said. �You should get over that quickly.� �The world is messy; there are ambiguities,� he continued. �People who do really good stuff have flaws. Cancel Culture is not a Right or Left issue  - Isn't boycotting NFL games because players kneel during the anthem cancel culture? Isn't boycotting Coke because they were against Georgia's voting laws cancel culture. Isn't shut up and dribble cancel culture? Back to Ben's points - probably a few issues of this - but really, in the grand scheme of things - how many films didn't this really ruin? Who are the "they" that shifted from writing to preaching.  Only when to tell if your statement makes sense. If you want to say that Michael Moore is more of a preacher than a documentarian - okay - I'm with you - get that.  But so are right-wingers like  Dinesh D�Souza. So, who are the writers you are specifically referencing?   I think that was Ben's issue - specifics please so he can understand exactly what films and writers have ruined filmmaking due to wokeness.

I've never liked Dinesh D'Souza's films - corny and preachy. I do enjoy listening to his podcast and general opinion, however. I'm not white, people think I am white, so I like to hilariously defer to people of color and watch the hilarity ensue.

I could find you a top ten list of scat films and dare you to find a gem in there, but I won't because the point is obvious. No matter how bad they do, there's always going to be a top 20. I mean, I have a top 20 list for my toenail clippings. lmao

There may be a gem in that list, but it's Hollywood's fault they've lost my trust, not the other way around. The decline of U.S. film is a failure entirely of Hollywood's making. Of course, it is. I promise, I'm not powerful enough to tank it on my own. I wish.

And I don't know if you've noticed, but the excuses are coming hard and fast. Last year the NBA went hard woke in the most cringy way imaginable, and their ratings tanked into the dirt. Then came the excuses. oh well uh covid, uh people were busy, blah blah. LOL

Same with the Oscars. Ratings tank into the dirt, and they can't even have a host because they can't find anyone willing to put up with their bullshit - and here come the excuses. Uh well, Covid, uhhhhh Trummmmp? (sure, why not?)

I keep seeing a lot of excuses for what we all know to be true. "Wokism" is destructive, awful in story, divisive and just plain boring. That's just how I feel. If you want concrete examples, the video Andrew provided does a pretty bang up job of it. I thank her for having to sit through those films and report back to you, because I sure as hell won't do it. LMAO

"Time to be powerful"
https://youtu.be/8LpFCJljb_g?t=4


(Somebody just shoot me)

I will just add this one here.

It's doubly sad we lost the Hitch when he would've done such an enormous service to society in expressing in what is wrong with discourse and the woke problem.

However, Peterson and Fry are also incredibly capable of articulating powerully the issues we are discussing in the broader sense.

Lengthy, but 110% worth your time.

I'm not America, I have no cards in the political game (thank f@#k), but I listen to a lot of political commentary, like a lot, mainly all from the right side of the political aisle, and while I don't agree with some things they say I do think they make a hell of a lot of sense.

My weekly routine is The Matt Walsh show every morning, Louder with Crowder on the way home and then a mix of Ben Shapiro, Andrew Klavan and Michael Knowles in between. All of these guys,to my mind, are very logical people that get labeled incredibly disgusting things a lot of the time.

All this to say that a few days ago Michael Knowles had a fantastic guest that really dug deep into woke culture.

Andrew this is what I was referencing...

The episode title is: Why Nothing Satisfies The Woke Culture

https://podcasts.google.com/fe.....AAAAQCw&hl=en-AU

I think the political divide is so big and completely unmendable in the States so most people on the left probably wouldn't even give this a go because of preconceived notions about the people I've mentioned. My favourite being that Ben Shapiro, an orthodox Jew, is a Nazi, brilliant stuff.

If it's something that really doesn't interest you, this would be a tough listen, but I think for anyone wanting to have a thoughtful and educated discussion about the issue then this is a great listen.

This is about as political as I'll get on SS and am tapping out of this thread straight after this post.

Thank god I live in Australia

Personally I do think films and TV shows are ruined by woke culture

From the list I saw these two definitely suffered:


     Star Wars: Episode IX - The Rise of Skywalker    
     Birds of Prey

More recent TV shows that suffered:

The Falcon and The Winter Solider
Grand Army
Dear White People (I mean this knows what it is, and unashamedly so, but I definitely don't need to be preached to)
Shameless (this tries to out-woke itself with each new season)

It's not happening to every film and TV Show around but it is growing at a pretty big rate IMO. These days if I even get a hint of being preached to about any social issue I just find another show/movie so it really doesn't affect me in any massive way, but I do think it will get worse as we go. I'm not sure how far the pendulum has to swing before it swings back but I think some of the damage can't be undone, the woker it gets the more victim status there is to go round and people are very reluctant to relinquish a victim group. So the more we give now, the harder it will be to get back to any sort of normal.

All just my opinion, happy for you to have yours and happy for us to disagree

you can't just leave lol

Steven Crowder and Ben Shapiro are awesome! Watch them all the time. I'll have to check out the others you have mentioned.

And I couldn't agree more about Birds of Prey and Star Wars 8&9, as well as Jurassic World: Fallen Kingdom. All of them are awful follow-ups to much better predecessors. And they are all awful for the same reason. "Woke-ness."

Another film destroyed by "Woke-ness"... Black Christmas 2019.

Quoted from Zack Another film destroyed by "Woke-ness"... Black Christmas 2019.

Budget:$5,000,000 (estimated)
Opening Weekend USA: $4,240,245, 15 December 2019
Gross USA: $10,429,730
Cumulative Worldwide Gross: $18,529,730

Quoted from Andrew To be fair, I just really don't accept the premise of the questions. You've framed the questions in a way that bolsters your view, whilst accepting the core basis that woke-ism is rampant. And undesirable. And negatively impacts film. I do beleve - and could be wrong - that it is because you're viewing the issue through the axis of left and right.

The premise was supplied by the preceding comments from Zack and Pia explaining the problem with wokeness. If you don't agree with the framing I think its because everyone has a different view of how wokeness supposedly ruins movies. I think that's because no-one actually has the same definition of wokeness at all, which is why no-one is able to give one. And I think that's by design, because if you actually try to define wokeness the argument against it falls apart.

I don't accept that woke-ism is rampant, or undesirable, or negatively impacts film. I do accept that corporate woke-ism is all of those things. The distinction I'm making there is that original "wokeness" -- as in the term that Black Americans have been using for perhaps a century -- had some specific content. Corporate "wokeness," by contrast, is just companies doing what they always do -- catering to what they believe is the mainstream/the broadest possible category of potential customers. So just as the story and the comedy and the cinematography and the dialogue and the etc. etc. of, say, Captain Marvel are really dumbed-down and made accessible to the widest possible audience, so too is the "empowering message" of the movie. Black Christmas 2019 is another great example. Yes, that movie is awful, and it has a "woke" message. But everything else about it is also awful. We'd just be calling these movies bad movies, except that the conservatives have an axe to grind.

Which leads me to the final point that "wokeness," as many here are using it, is just a conservative/right-wing pejorative. This phrase is deliberately vague, because it's just the latest term in a long-running history of conservatives complaining that some insidious foreign ideology is corrupting the culture from within. It can't be specific because it doesn't actually mean anything other than "left-leaning aspects of our culture that we prefer didn't exist" -- and that's why we always end up at, "Oh, come on, you know what wokeness is, I don't have to tell you." This version of "wokeness" is basically indistinguishable from Peterson's nonsense phrase "postmodern neo-Marxism" or, 70 years ago, William F. Buckley's "collectivism." This is basically a historical constant -- people have always thought that their culture was falling apart after the values of a "golden age" in the past were corrupted, and have always identified some sort of creeping foreign influence as the cause of that corruption (usually this is combined with the idea of fearsome barbarians at the gates).

ANYway. I dunno. Yes, it's exciting to imagine apocalyptic scenarios where angry mobs of "woke" people are coming to get everyone, gathering in the shadows on college campuses and infiltrating Hollywood to spread their evil message. Thats why Shapiro and Knowles and all the rest are fun to listen to -- their fantasy worlds are alive and volatile and dangerous. But in the end I think it's the same dull thing. A bunch of hacks make some pseudo-progressive movies, a bunch of other hacks write books and make videos whining about those movies, and the public gives their preferred hacks some money before going home a littler angrier and a little dumber.

*

All that said, I'll listen to Fry/Peterson and report back, because Fry's great and Peterson always gives me a good laugh. I will offer Nathan Robinson's take on Peterson in return, which I think does a good job of illustrating what an absolute goof Peterson is: https://www.currentaffairs.org/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve