Interesting post, DC.  Few weeks back, someone on here told me the same thing, just not in as much detail.  I don't even entertain the idea of submitting a script to Carson, anymore.

Quoted from Guest Interesting post, DC.  Few weeks back, someone on here told me the same thing, just not in as much detail.  I don't even entertain the idea of submitting a script to Carson, anymore.

No-one should. It's just a very bad idea. Enter the Nicholl Contest. Or Page International. Seek a good coverage service. Ask the opinion of peers.

But Scriptshadow is the very definition of a poisoned chalice. For all the reasons listed above.  

@DeepCoverage

I was gonna let this slide. I mean, this is Simply Scripts not Scriptshadow! But I can't... I just can't!!

"you guys are putting WAY too much credence into reviews and opinions from a man who less than a decade ago was nothing more than a tennis coach."

Promise not to tell anyone, but I'm an ex-school kid! Naturally, this means I can't know the first thing about screenwriting - Despite having spent countless hours studying the craft!

"Carson Reeves or Scriptshadow might be well-connected now, but he's not well liked. In fact, his name attached to projects (particularly as producer) has already ruined deals for writers. Yes, there are some producers who tolerate what he does as a necessary evil for farming new talent and voices."

Wait! A former tennis coach is being recognized by some producers for farming new talent and voices?! Hmmm.... Maybe I can reveal my dark secret about being an ex-school kid after all?!

"He didn't have much to do with the juggernaut that was Tyler's Disciple script. The screenplay was finding its way into inboxes way before he came along. But that didn't stop him publicizing his involvement on his website like he'd single-handedly uncovered this hidden talent all by himself."

The script was a finalist in a competition. The writer sent the script to Carson for notes. Carson read it - flipped over it. Said: "The Disciple Program was the best non-professional script I had ever read, period." Promoted the crap out of it on Scriptshadow. The script subsequently sold to Universal Studios with Mark Wahlberg attached!!

Presumably the other finalists scripts found their way into inboxes too? How many of them have since sold or been optioned?

Fortunately, folks don't have to take my word for how much Carson was involved in bringing The Disciple Program to the industry's attention! Here's what the competition's organizers had to say about it:

"Carson's buzz and press around his anticipated posted review of The Disciple Program on his blog caused a frenzy in the Industry as people clamored to be the first to get their hands on the script. The result? Tyler signed with William Morris Endeavor before he even flew to Los Angeles for his lunch with Robert Mark Kamen and meeting with Benderspink."

" A year back, a writer did the same thing. Asked that Carson not review an early draft and offered to send him the update. Carson ran the early draft review!

There were two writer's on the project. One wanted the review. The other didn't. Carson ran the early draft review because he's already read that draft and thus already written the review! Fact is, he shouldn't have posted the review and paid the price with the huge fallout from it - He lost a lot of followers that day. He learned his lesson and stopped sending out scripts to his members as a result.

" I'd say 0.5% of those who comment on AF are working screenwriters. The rest are spewing Guru bilge they read in the latest HOW TO book."

Isn't that more or less the same on any screenwriting website/forum? Or are you saying that Done Deal, where most of you Carson haters come from, has a significantly higher percentage of working screenwriters?!

"Working screenwriters rarely frequent Scriptshadow."

Someone needs to tell Dan Fogelman! Dude, gave an interview on Scriptshadow last week!

" And though he's changed his ways (been forced to at least), pros have not forgiven him. For years, he put people's livelihoods in jeopardy to advertise his website and peddle his wares.

Which pros are these? The 0.01% who take the moral high ground? Or the 99.99% who rewrite the shit out of another writer's script for a paycheck, whilst still taking the moral high ground?!

"Even after he proved he didn't 'get' TDJ? Even after it was all but proved he must have skim-read? And you're still submitting to him?"

His review of TDJ was sloppy. Definitely didn't bring his A game. But that's not to say TDJ wouldn't benefit from another rewrite to get it into tip-top shape imo.

"Why? Because he can get you read by CAA or WME? Here's a newsflash! YOU can get you read by those agencies. Download manager contact lists and query. Those Managers will get you into the top agencies to be read. There's nothing Carson has done that wouldn't have happened anyway based on the quality of the work."

You mean to say those Managers are just sitting around waiting for my script to drop onto their laps?! Dammit! I thought they were so busy hustling for their existing clients, that they wouldn't have time to read a script from an unknown ex-school kid like myself!! All this time I thought you needed a referral or at least to have placed well in a top competition to get a good Manager's attention! Thanks for the heads up!

"So what do you gain from submitting to AF? If you're well received, a few interesting notes and ideas once you sift through the sewer bilge."

Yeah - Just like the writers of Reunion, The Disciple Program, Where Angels Die, Rose in the Darkness, etc. etc.
All of whom gained representation and/or had their script sold or optioned!!

Obviously with a name like DeepCoverage, I'm pretty confident that you're not one of those people who charges writer's good money for notes?! A failed screenwriter without a single writing credit, who takes folks hard earned cash off them in order to supposedly help them do something they're unable to do themselves? Namely, sell a script?

Because if you were, I'd be worried that your attack on Carson and Scriptshadow, might be fueled more by petty bitterness and professional jealousy than any genuine desire to help the good folks on here?!

Either way, I've said all I've got to say. Not going to go back and forth on this with you or trade barbs. This is Simply Scripts not Scriptshadow! Besides, I'm late for my tennis lesson!! Carson's promised to help me strengthen my backhand!!

Nope. I don't charge people for coverage notes or reads. Not a huge fan of that side of the business. But coverage notes don't just apply to paid script reader services. Coverage notes are given by readers at prodcos. Or CAA. WME. UTA etc etc.

Or on an amateur level. Any time someone gives you notes on your script, they've provided coverage. Just not on a professional level.

And I'm not ex-school. I'm ex-University Grad.... but not in screenwriting. Or writing for that matter. I would take your point here that we can learn to be something we're not over time, were it not for the fact that I'm not pretending to be something I'm not. Neither are you. Carson is. He's pimping himself as this Hollywood insider when truth is many industry professionals would prefer he remain outside. He's a Tennis Coach that has a snake-oil salesman knack for making everyone believe he knows more than he does.

As to Disciple, it was indeed in a contest where the writer was mentored by a screenwriter with WAY more influence in the business than Carson could ever hope for.... But Carson was the reason the script got heat?

Everything else you said about Carson, well, pretty much backs up what I said doesn't it? The writer asked him not to post that draft. He posted it. Whether or not he got flack for what he did, he still did it. And it was a calculated move on his part.

As to the issue of percentage of Screenwriters on Shadow, yes, I'd happily state that DD has a higher ratio of working screenwriters. MUCH higher. Nice snipe at working screenwriters by the way simply because they're employed to fix scripts by other writers. I'm not sure that has anything to do with Moral High Grounds. It's part of the business.

As to managers....YES!!! They are waiting for your script to drop into their laps! YES! Of course they are. They read queries. If they like what they read, they request the script. If they like your style or voice, they sign you! Inktip type sites have changed that business model somewhat, but ultimate YES! Managers are waiting for YOU! And no, you don't need to have won a contest. You don't need anything, but the script, a query letter and mangers contact details. It's not like Agents. Managers accept unsolicited material. Hit them with a powerful logline. Forget contest wins!

But I'm not into trading barbs either and I don't think anything in this reply could be considered such. Just an exchange of differing viewpoints. As to professional jealousy, that made me smile. I'm doing just fine thanks

"But that's not to say TDJ wouldn't benefit from another rewrite to get it into tip-top shape imo"

Regarding the rest of this discussion, I'm-a gonna stay out of it...  

But as someone who has read TDJ in depth, I would firmly argue that the script doesn't need a rewrite.  A tweak on the opening scene to clarify, sure.  But the rest?  

It *definitely* should have earned at least a "worth the read" from Scriptshadow. That's not me being biased.  I do - and continue - to judge Phil's work by the highest possible standard.  This one IS worthy.

--Cheers, --J

@wonkavite

"But as someone who has read TDJ in depth, I would firmly argue that the script doesn't need a rewrite.  A tweak on the opening scene to clarify, sure.  But the rest?  

Sorry, I was a little fired up when I wrote the earlier post. TDJ could perhaps do with a slight tweak. Certainly doesn't need a rewrite!

When Carson checked the "wasn't for me" box, I think he was referring to himself and not the public. There are going to be people who like something or don't like it. You just have to find that person who likes it...or convince them to like it. That's what Carson does essentially. He convinces you or tries to convince you to like something as he does. Carson is not the only person with contacts.

Gabe

Hey Gabe,

True, I'm sure Carson's tastes enter into his reviews - a lot.  How could they not?

But I'd argue that's not what the ScriptShadow "wasn't for me" rating really implies.  

Ideally, "worth a read" means just that...  IE: that a script has qualities that make it entertaining, worthy (at least in some aspects) of cinematic production, and also worthy of reading by the general script writing populace as an example of "how a script SHOULD be written".  (Again, at least in some aspects.  Not that it's perfection personified.  That would be reserved for the Genius Rating)

Therefore - in comparison - "not for me" kind of implies that it's none of those things.  Which isn't really fair for scripts that do measure up to the criteria listed above, but happen to not be Carson's cup of tea.  For instance, maybe he would rather gag than watch Sofie's Choice.  That doesn't make it a crappy script that's not worth the read.  (BTW - I've never seen that particular movie.  Just pulling it out of my...um...hat as an example.)  

Is the current draft of Phil's script up on the board or does someone have to e-mail it to me?

I'm kinda curious now...

You can download any of the Amateur Friday scripts from the voting thread:

http://scriptshadow.net/amateur-offerings-weekend-28/

Also, the Devil's thread here is current.  He's got it linked to Dropbox for updates...  

I can't download the Warning Shot for some reason.
Wanted to start commenting there...

Problem solved, never mind please.

Congrats, Shawn!

Great job, Shawn! Absolutely awesome score!