AnotherWriter,

The thing that has me frustrated is that you act as though a “pro quality” script is certain to get noticed, certain to bring buzz for the writer, or lead to assignment work; that it will definitely lead to something. If there’s a guaranteed formula for success in Hollywood then certainly I’m interested. The problem is that I can’t tell what’s so damn special about the pro writers.

I’m not mad at you personally. I’m frustrated that you keep insinuating that a “pro quality” writer is going to get somewhere in Hollywood.

If you know how to turn my script into a “pro quality” script that will launch my career as a Hollywood writer, then I’d like to hire you to script doctor it. But then I assume you are already successful since you’re a writer and you know the formula for success.

Listen. If someone asked me, “Brea, are you bitter that you’re a failure as a writer?,” I would have to answer, “Why yes, yes, as a matter of fact I am bitter that I’m a failure as a writer.” I admit I’m jealous. I don’t deny that. That’s why I’ve been over and over this in my mind. And why I’ve attempted so many different genres, story structures, etc. All looking for that “pro quality” script that will break me in. But alas, I’ve done nothing but write a bunch of scripts and fail.

So when someone comes around talking about how much better the pros are than the amateurs and how easy it should be to make it if one would just mimic the pros, I feel somewhat compelled to find exactly how they know that. And unless you yourself are a professional Hollywood writer who isn’t related to Aaron Spelling or someone else in the business, then you’ve really offered me nothing to back up your assertions.

But I do apologize for coming off so bluntly.

Quoted from AnotherWriter I wasn't challenging a writing throwdown with the pros.  When I said "daring", I just meant that I wasn't sure about the forum rules since the topic of people posting up pages has popped up in the past and tossed out of the window.  There is this underlying feeling that people post pages with hopes to get noticed or notes from pros.  And, as a result, nobody has done so.

I don’t really understand what you’re saying here. Are you saying there was some problem with a writer posting pages at this site in the past? It sounds like you’re saying there’s a rule against what you suggested I do. I don’t want to get involved in some mess over there at some site I’m not familiar with.

Quoted from AnotherWriter But if you feel like you can eat them breakfast, then you go girl.

It’s not a matter of eating them for breakfast or challenging them. I’m just saying I’m not afraid of them. They don’t intimidate me. Not one bit.


Breanne

Brea,

I want to applaud your attitude. You want to figure our the formula-- as if there is a formula-- and yes, there is and no there isn't, but you stand tall and I really admire that!!!! And more: !!!!!!

You know, I've spent ridiculous amounts of time on minuscule articles and stories just to get published. So big deal-- it's small time, but to me it means a lot because I'm doing it for some strange reason that's all about "sharing" and "entertaining" and "teaching."

Now when I analyze the "why" my article or story was selected, I don't have a good answer except that I worked long and hard on it. The trouble is though, I don't think the same rules hold so true in screenwriting. I do feel that if one is just a "decent" writer; not necessarily spectacular, but they've got connections, then they've got a far better chance than any of us without such favored links.

The route I'm taking with one of my babies is to write THE NOVEL first; and then the script (not necessarily in that order). Then, I'm hiring my husband, a computer network manager, but also an excellent salesman to sell the ice to the Eskimos and I know he can do it. My challenge first however, is to write as Pia says: "The KickAss Script".

It's a bloody long road just to develop something you feel is acceptable for presenting for a general critique let alone something you'd present at a pitch fest; so I admire everyone who works consistently in this regard.

Brea, I know how frustrated you feel and I join you in this frustration. If you look back at my crit before I'd read any of the other comments, you'll see my remark about "Fuck" as being a brilliant way to begin dialogue. I really was questioning it right off the bat. Well, it does take this film out of general entertainment and I think that if I was writing it, I'd want to make it for a general audience.

A friend I'm working with who's developed an adaptation of a book, gave me a script to review, and I right away noticed that it could be a Disney Film if it were revised. This is really important: To recognize your audience and I think that "Countdown" (And I agree with whoever said they didn't care for the title) didn't deliver to the audience it was really (or should have been) intended for.

I see this movie as being for a young audience. 10 year olds to teenagers. Take out the swearing and give a bit of "the creeps" and you've got happy campers. Seriously, we don't necessarily need to have the character development and a finely tuned structure if we're just trying to give some thrills to some young people. All we have to do is go back in time and think how much fun it was to watch "Godzilla".

I am going to go back to some advice I received from a writer in LA. He gave the age old wisdom of: You've got to know your story.

This is where I springboard: Not only do we have to know our story, but we've got to know our audience.

This movie could have done better in this regard by tailoring it to a general audience.

Thanks again Brea and everyone for your insight in this thread.

Sandra

Thanks Sandra. I appreciate what you’re saying.

To all:

Just for the record (and to maybe lighten the mood a bit )…


Plot Holes and Strange Things:

Inconsistencies in their technology. They had sophisticated exercise equipment that allowed them to float in midair. They had sophisticated guns and pulsar equipment. Yet when they had to scale a cliff, all they had was….rope. I thought to myself huh? They don’t have a jet pack or something? A smaller flying craft? What the hell?

P61 - I was surprised no one asked about Finn’s body. His and Torrence’s were the only bodies that had not been found. Given that some bodies had been suspected of being murdered (Daya’s had been tortured), I would wonder about the people whose bodies had not been found. They would be murder suspects. Yet no one has questioned.

P80 - Daya explains what happened with Elster. Finn says, “There is no weapon to defeat inevitability.” Yet no one seems to have noticed that Elster failed to kill Daya. I mean he was supposedly going to shoot her exactly where her corpse was shot in the head. Someone should have pointed out Elster’s failure.

Elster’s body never ended up where it was originally found.

The red creatures with the gills made no sense from an evolutionary standpoint and they came out of nowhere. It would be better if the original creatures figured out how to float on the water or something.

While I’m on the subject of evolution, these creatures were vegetarians with super long tongues. So where were the flowers they stuck their tongues into?

P87 - Daya tells Riker his job is to not let anyone shoot her. Then Riker tells her to “give it a shot” in reference to her shutting down the core. That was a poor choice of words for Riker under the circumstances and came off as unrealistic.

P94-95 - Daya steals Mills’ gun and shoots herself. Mills is in shock and Ryker grabs her. Mills never takes her gun back. If the gun was left in Daya’s hand, then it should have been there when they first found Daya’s body and they should have known Daya killed herself.

P98 - Finn points out that his body hasn’t been found so maybe he survives. He points out that only the bodies of Ryker and Mills are found on the ship. So Finn decides to leave off into the jungle. With the creatures out there, there was zero chance of survival. Why did it not occur to him that the creatures would get him? Why didn’t it occur to him that if he got on the ship, that might alter the fates of all of them?

Near the end, Ryker asks Mills if she trusts him. Of course she does. She’s the perfect loving nurturer. But then we find out Ryker never really had a plan! I mean they were saved by Finn. But that wasn’t Ryker’s plan! That was merely a fluke. Ryker didn’t actually have a plan. So why did he act like he did? Finn saving them was pure luck. Ryker couldn’t have planned it because he had no way of knowing Finn would even wake up.

Finn tries to make Mills take the pill. He’s angry because she didn’t “stop the loop.” His merely getting on the ship would have stopped the loop.

P100 - the pill falling into Mills’ breast pocket was too convenient. Ridiculously so.

P105 - Ryker says about why he didn’t kill Finn that he didn’t want to tell his son that he killed a man. But he did kill a man. A thousand times over. Ryker literally murdered Finn a thousand times.

And finally, here’s the biggest problem of all for me:

If a shockwave from their ship is what causes the boom that sets them on the course of their alternate future……..What caused the original shockwave?!

The ending is what should have happened in the first place. There was nothing to cause the initial shockwave! The catalyst to the entire story didn’t really exist. The entire story would have never happened in the first place! How’s that for a giant gaping plot hole?

And hey if I’m missing something on any of these, please let me know.


Breanne

The point I thought was being made with the Mist example, given by Another Writer, was that from script to screen is a long process, and collaborators have their say like art directors, set directors, stunt coordinators, actors. Casting can make or break a films box office success. I think just as good a question as about the comments made about the monster’s description is whether you liked the movie, I did, Dreamscale said he did. And no it’s not Oscar material, but an amateur doesn’t have to write Oscar material to sell or be at a pro level, which is sounds like what Breanne and Dreamscale want.


In the Aliens dvd they talk about going through drafts of what the Alien looked like. The look of the Alien help tremendously, the point is they worked on it. And they better have because it was title, Alien, in this flick it was the hook; in Countdown I would say plot is most important, which I only conclude because of the title and what I know from the premise. The ticking clock, what happens next.


Also, and I may sound naive on this, when you guys say Hollywood shoveling out crap films and such, is indie, or movies made for a certain amount of money in that equation. And I have to say this most of movie budget comes from overpaid actor who are paid before the fact. Also, people who green light films aren’t screenwriters, so it’s safe to say they don’t know what they are looking at most the time. More so than understand quality, they understand cause and effect, “I’ve seen this type of movie do well before.”


As far as the plot holes go and I’m not defending all of them, just saying that it’s a story about the future, which is like inherently jumps plot holes to 100%. It’s basically like unavoidable, what I’m saying is I’ve read scripts on here that didn’t have to deal with the future/past overlapping thing and no reason for plot holes, and all sorts of ill logical/unbelievable moments, but still did. Don’t get even get me started about The Departed, an Oscar winner in both respective picture and screenplay. Hmm, question would you rather win Oscar for best screenplay or have the movie you wrote the script for win best picture?

Man oh man, where to start?  I absolutely hated this.  We've been making the comparison between this and unsold nonproduced screenplays, but I think if we compare it to other sold, produced screenplays by paid professionals, this is one of the worst that I've ever read.

I think the overarching problem is it never figures out what it wants to be.  I haven't seen the TZ episode, but I can imagine it focused more on the psychological aspects, finding your own body, fate, etc.  This kind of touches on that, but is far more of an action picture, which never successfully melds the psychological aspect.  And then you have the unfortunate problem that the action writing is so horrendous.  

That scene where Ryker rescues Elster from the creatures?  When he fires a rope with his crossbow, climbs out drops another rope which elster climbs, then they crawl back!  Whew boy!  I was on the edge of my seat!  It sounds like something from a movie they would have watched on Mystery Science Theater.  

And Breanna's list while not wxhaustive, has some great examples of why this is so bad.  I put my pen down around p 36 or so.

And with all due respect to Anotherwriter, I think you're wrong on this.  I think someone from this site had sent that draft in as a spec, there is no way it would have been bought.  

It's funny I started reading your one post, was ruminating on it, and it struck that the problem with this is that it's so pedestrian.  That was the word that popped into my mind.  I scroll down a little and your talking about the problem of pedestrian scripts.  

Three was absolutely nothing outstanding about this script, no bit of writning that makes me go "WOW".  Hell, three days later and I don't know if I'd really remember any of it if we weren't talking about it.  The only memorable part was the exercise scene, which should be cut completely because it adds nothhing.  

But other than that, it was great!

And if i groped anyone during the group hug, I apologize.

Quoted from seamus19382 And if i groped anyone during the group hug, I apologize.

If no one slapped you there's no need to apologize.  

I feel so much better now (maybe it was that double Jager shot from Pia).  Seriously, thanks Seamus, because I agree with you so much here, and have been trying over and over to help the majority see the light.

Your example with the rescue scene is a good one.  As I recall, just about evey action scene was extremely poorly written.  All very bland and poorly thought out...just kind of thrown together.  If you really stop and think about what is on the page, most of it really doesn't even make any sense, in terms of logical, believable action.

If this is truly "pro writing" that stands out above "pre pro writing", I must be seriously impaired, because I sure don't see it or get it.  If this is all it takes to get noticed in Hollywood, I'm going to write a new script this afternoon, and it's going to be chock full of crappy, cliche-ridden, cardboard characters, generic, stupid creatures, and horrificly plotted and written action scenes.  I'll toss it over to AnotherWriter for a read, and sit back and plan my vacation to Bora Bora, knowing that Im going to be the next big thing in Hollywood.  Might as well start planning for a new house on Camelback mountain also...

So where is this stupid script anyway, if somebody wanted to look for themselves?

Good question Bert.  The link seems to have disappeared.

Where'd it go Pia?

I got a message from someone that Simply Scripts was doing Countdown.  I am NOT any of the writers involved with Countdown but I was involved in several of the phases of its earlier development.  It was not a green to go script.  You can tell that by looking at the date on the cover.  It’s been in development for over four years.

I think I read all the posts and I’ll do my best to address some of them.

It was interesting to read your comments on the piece.  This exercise is to learn why this script sold.  What about it separates it from the homegrown screenplays on this site? I keep seeing a lot of this is wrong and this is wrong.  The writing is awful or it’s juvenile.  What's with all the underlining, Why is there swearing in the prose. What's with all the asides.

This script reflects a lot of what is going on in the market.  The techniques and style are all common. I’ve worked with lots of writers and the best ones are always open and try to keep their writing current.  They try new things and do whatever it takes to make the story easy to understand. The less secure get defensive and hate everything.  Lots of new writers often see themselves as being superior to what is being produced in Hollywood. They’re out to bring up the quality of all movies.  My suggestion is to get over yourself if you want to be a screenwriter.  William Faulkner and F. Scott Fitzgerald couldn’t save Hollywood from itself so it’s not you’ll be able to do it.

You talk about story.  If a script has a great story Hollywood will come knocking.  Maybe it will and we'll give you a check for it and replace you with people who can write a screenplay.  A real screenplay is less about story and more about efficiency and structure (which is not the same thing as INT/EXT format).

Here is the first thirty.

P 1-4      A$$ in the seat section of the script with the credit roll. Location and characters are introduced
P 5-7      What is this movie about?  Our crew is trying to find a new earth but the probe is down. And on page 7 Finn sets the first clock in motion - the Earth only has ten years left
P. 8-10 The Mills and Ryker relationship is established (and there’s another clock ticking with Ryker’s transfer orders), there's something wrong with Corvin, Ryker works out his problems with violence.
P. 11-14  Finn and his feedback exercise - wonder why Finn is a little more on top of things in the other sections of the script?  He's doing a feedback exercise in the middle of a continuous loop. Mills is pregnant and she gets the termination pill (another clock ticking). Daya gives the statue to Elster
P. 15 mid-first act break with the Talon meeting the shockwave from the past
P. 20 Finn kills Corvin
P. 22-23 Ryker and his anger issues, Finn makes him equally culpable for Corvin's death
P..24-28 Bring the ship down and explore the planet
P. 29 start of the rolling first act that spans into the second act

There's no fat in these pages.  No limp dialogue about the weather or what you had for breakfast. Every line matters. If you write about something it better connect to something else.  Why would so much time be spent on the initial appearance of the Vishnu statue? Or the animated tattoo? Why waste the sentences if that's all there is to it?

Character development.  This isn't a movie likely to get Oscar ads.  The characters are established, you get their jobs which reflect their personalities and they stay the same in a movie that is effectively a continuous loop. You want a moon and June kind of sentimental scene with Ryker and Mills that will stop the screenplay cold?  When we meet them she shuts him down and sets off to play the martyr and he gets frustrated and angry.  It's ultimately Ryker's story and throughout the writers show that he deals with his anger through violence.  He finally breaks the time loop by not killing Finn.  

Is the solution to the loop some intellectual exercise?  It’s not meant to be. I think that’s the problem that many of you have with the script. You’re not reading the script as written and instead trying to force it into being another movie entirely. You had problems with how quickly Corvin’s condition is revealed.  It’s not meant to be a complicated plot point because if it were the writers would have buried it more.  Lots of the crew realizes that something is wrong with Corvin which is the point.  Any of them could have done something but they don’t act.  It’s interesting that the one person who deals with the problem is not part of Ryker’s crew.

A lot of your mentioned “plot holes” come from not allowing the characters to react differently than how you are projecting they should react.  Scripts from new writers always have these perfectly balanced characters that are just as smart as the writer that know everything and react like robots to force the story along its beats.  The characters in Countdown are a mess.  They do stupid things and react like real people in a life and death situation.  Many of the people in this posting are leaning toward Finn as the one who fixes everything.  I don’t think it’s a coincidence that he is the brainy character in the piece.  In this instance it is not being smart or educated that saves the day. It is Thou Shalt Not Kill which does it.

It’s fine that you think the movie is dopey or hate the monsters or action sequences.  But if you want to see how it works you have to take it on its own terms.  It accomplishes what the writers set out to do. You need to break it apart based on what the writers have done and not what you would do to “fix it”.  This isn’t a script review exercise is it?  It’s looking for the plot points that are in place and trying to understand them.

Someone listed Sunshine (and Aliens which is too out of date to use as a sample script) in one of the posts as being a similar movie.  It is and it isn’t. Sunshine is a philosophical script about the existence of God.  Countdown is a script about giant monsters and a crew in jeopardy.  Is Countdown the best script I’ve ever read?  No.  Does it have the same level of artistry as Sunshine? No. But Countdown delivers what the people with the open checkbook wanted. Which is a summer monster movie that will sell well when dubbed to meet the overseas market.  

If someone had a copy of Sunshine it would be a great exercise to read these two side by side because what is and isn’t in Countdown might be more apparent.

Thanks for the insight, Verdugo!  Very interesting stuff here.

If this is indeed intended to be a Summer blockbuster movie about giant monsters and a crew in peril, I think it's missed it's mark pretty badly with the monsters that inhabit this script, as well as the lame action sequences involving them.  Obviously, we have no idea what they'll actually come out looking like, but if they look like they're described, bad news for Countdown, cause its run at the box office will be a rather quick countdown.

It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.  My money's on this being a flop, sorry to say, but you never know.

Thanks for jumping in and giving us some background.

Thanks for your input, Verdugo. Much appreciated.

Since you were involved in this script’s development, I take it you work (or worked) in the industry.

So maybe you could shed some light on an aspect that we’ve been discussing quite a bit:

If this script was written on spec by an unknown writer, would it help him to break in?

(In order to limit the analysis to this script’s potential, let’s assume the writer isn’t a jerk, that he isn’t a one trick pony and has other projects ready to pitch, that he doesn’t fart during meetings, etc).

I’m looking forward to know your thoughts on this. Thanks.

Quoted from Dreamscale Where'd it go Pia?

I guess it's not available on the net anymore. E-mail only.

Verdugo,

Thanks!  

Quoted from AnotherWriter There is no magic forumla.  I never said there was.  Apart from writing a great script -- which in itself is already a challenge.

You said this script would definitely start an amateur writer’s career. You said it would definitely lead to talk in Hollywood, assignment work, etc. I said if this script was submitted by an amateur it would stand no more chance than any other script written by a good amateur. You are the one who continues to insist this script would get somewhere minus its obvious advantages.

Quoted from AnotherWriter I'm just merely stating my personal observations based on my experiences -- what I consider to be good writing and bad writing -- based on the scripts that has previously piled up on my desk.  You start to see the same old sh!t over time.  But Countdown -- although it's no Citizen Kane or Casablanca -- or in any way a perfect script -- it does stand out above the sh!t and qualifies, IMO, above the 99.99%.  If people don't agree with it, so be it.

I never said this script wasn’t above average. What I said - and stand by - is that there are scripts by amateur writers that are every bit as good as this one - or better. And that I have read scripts by amateur writers that I would personally rather see at the theater that this one.

Quoted from AnotherWriter If people think that it's all about luck, contacts, timing, predicting the market, then that's up to them.

I never said it was all about luck. I said luck was a factor. What I said is that a writer has to have talent and perseverance and has to learn to be prepared for opportunities, and to take full advantage of any opportunities that arise. But ultimately, a writer can be a good writer, every bit as good - or even better - than a Hollywood pro and still fail.

And quite frankly, my view holds much more consistent with reality as we know it than yours. Your view is a bit fanciful. Besides, your view, that somehow a good writer is guaranteed to make it, isn’t testable. Mine, that a good writer can fail through no fault of his or her own, is testable.

As I said, I would be willing to put my own head on the chopping block. If you take me and a Hollywood pro and you give us both the same writing assignment; the same information to start with; the same source material; the same criteria for executive expectations; everything the same, except that we both go our separate ways and are given the same period of time to produce a script; I believe I will produce a script that is every bit the same quality as that Hollywood pro. And yes, I’ll even go against the writers of Countdown.

And I sincerely apologize if I come off as arrogant. I assure you it’s not that I think I’m such a wonderful writer or that I think I’m a genius or anything. It’s just that I don’t believe Hollywood pros are generally better writers than me. I feel I have a talent that’s being wasted and I don’t think the writers of Countdown earned their very large paychecks with this project. And I think it’s a disgrace they make so much money while I languish as a writer.

Quoted from AnotherWriter It really does come down to the read.  Writing a good script is all have to go on to get through those doors.

My point all along is that even a good script isn’t always enough. You seem to be agreeing with me here.

Quoted from AnotherWriter As for the paradoxial plot hole in Countdown, I don't think I have ever seen a time travelling story that doesn't suffer from them.  The Back To The Future series suffers from a lot of plot holes.  But that didn't stop them from being good movies.

Yes, it’s true that time travel films are notorious for plot holes. But Countdown has obvious plot holes that negate the entire film. Even an amateur should have seen these plot holes. I realize these guys were just given an assignment and this job was probably just another fat paycheck for them. But they should give a shit about their work. They didn’t earn their paychecks.


Breanne

Breanne,

The story is weak, the characters are weak and the movie contains plot holes. All of this is true, I doubt anybody is disagreeing with you on this at all. But it is still a well written script and better than most if not all unproduced scripts on this site.

The writers were not trying to write an Oscar winner, they wrote a commercial movie that will get bums on seats and make money. You sound like you have not been to the cinema for years. Have you seen the movies that are making money at the cinema recently. You think Indianna Jones made sense? You think Pineapple Express was a cleverly written screenplay?  You problem is with the quality of the story, that is fine, it is my problem with it too. But it is a fact that the majority of the American movie going audience do not want clever movies that make sense, they do not want drama with well developed character. They want stupid monsters, they want mindless action and simple dialogue, they do not even care about plot holes whether they notice them or not.

Do you want to write a screenplay that wins an Oscar or do you want to write a screenplay that make loads of money? It is very very rare nowadays for the two to combine. This is clearly a script that has been written for the mass market in mind and the dollars that they bring.

Can you not see how this script has been built? I would say expertly, all the plot points in the right place, the pace is spot-on, inciting incidents, conflicts, hero's and villains etc.. You go and find my some scripts on this site that have been put together with the same level of skill. Much of this is invisible to the casual movie goer but we as wannabe screenwriters know to look out for these, and in the vast majority of cases on this site these elements are just not there or in the wrong place. This makes this a well written script and does lift it above much of the dross out there by unproduced writers. You really need to be able to spot the difference between a script that has been put together by a professional and one put together by someone who has not mastered their craft yet.

I really think you are allowing your feelings for the story get in the way of your feelings for the script itself. The story is a movie that will sell tickets and make money, if you cannot see that then I would suggest you go to IMDB and take a look at some of the most successful movies over the last 10 years (Money not Oscars!!). This is an action movie, it was written as an action movie, it is not smart but it never wanted to be. We are supposed to be pulling apart this script and understanding how it has been crafted, how it has been expertly built.

Don't get confused by thinking a great script must therefore mean a great movie. Hollywood on the whole are not interested in great movies, they want a product that sells. We have to understand the market for our scripts and write for that market. Countdown does that exactly. I am not going to see this movie, but then this movie was never written with me in mind. I will be in my local art-house watching something else, but while I am in there there will be another 3,000 people sitting in the multiplex watching Countdown. Which one would you want to be the writer of?