Quoted from mcornetto It isn't the dreaded f word. It's just that these discussions came out of a thread called breaking the rules and therefore are not supposed to be about rules.  They are supposed to be about story and what works in the script and what doesn't.  There isn't a problem with you bringing up format issues as a personal dislike. But there is a problem with trying to make them a topic of discussion.  So that is why people were coming down hard on you when you wanted to discuss format issues. Hope that helps.

The thing is that format can cover an enormous amount of subjects. If we don’t talk about any format issues at all, then I don’t see that there’s anything left to discuss. In my mind, story structure is format. Plot holes are format. On the nose dialogue is a matter of format. Hell, in some cases, the story itself is a matter of format. Some movies are completely contrived in every way.

We all agree the premise is good. So without studying things that fall into the format arena, this discussion is essentially over. At least from my standpoint.

The thing that really kills me is that I don’t feel I was trying to drag format in any arbitrary sense into the discussion. I feel the opposite. I feel that I was trying to avoid arbitrary format issues and some people are bound and determined to drag me into a format argument from the past.

Quoted from Murphy Breanne, I think you are referring to something I said and I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression.

GM, it’s okay. I understand what you were saying. It’s just that I came here for a discussion. And I feel more like we’re being divided up into teams for a square off. It’s taxing to me.

If people want to say story structure isn’t format, then fine. I don’t agree with that definition. In fact, I don’t even see how anyone could argue that story structure is anything but format. But if that’s the case, that’s fine by me.

Quoted from Murphy For what it is worth I would much rather this had not been such a high action obvious big budget popcorn flick but more of a drama led, character driven drama/thriller. That was what I was expecting from the premise anyway.

I was hoping it would go that direction as well. That’s more in alignment with the source material. They may have felt it wouldn’t work that way and decided to punch it up into an action flick because they thought it was more salable that way.

Quoted from Grandma Bear At least I got something out of it.

Oh I got a tremendous amount of insight out of it. I’m glad you picked it. I’m glad I read it and I think this thread has been valuable to me. I just wish it could have been more of a discussion about the script and less feeling like I was being placed on one side of an argument.

I made a couple of comments about the author’s incessant underlining getting annoying and the way the voice of the script changed from sounding like an adult to that of an overexcited juvenile. They were offhand remarks. Someone said they didn’t want to talk about that stuff so I dropped it. Since then, I’ve been accused of trying to drag us all back to some format argument thread from the past that I had nothing to do with.

It just blows my mind. From my standpoint, I don’t care about that stuff and don’t think it’s that big of a deal. To me, other people are hypersensitive about it and blowing it way out of proportion. It seems to me that some are hell bent on making an issue of it. In any event, it’s taxing and I’m not doing it anymore. If people want to insist I’m arguing over something I’ve barely even mentioned, they can have their war with themselves.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Btw, for anyone who find it discouraging that this one got made when there are other better scripts out there by pre-pro/amateur/newbie writers, I can tell you that there are some really sucky scripts out there that somehow made it to film. Horror is my one of my favorite genres and I try to read a lot of them. I've read some that I can honestly say, I was totally amazed it made it to the screen.

I think this script is a very good script overall. I think it’s above average. I’m not discouraged that it’s getting made. I’m discouraged by the idea that some seem to have that it’s somehow of such high quality that it would bring some level of guaranteed success to an amateur, be it buzz or whatever.

I believe that this script, if written by an amateur and not based on a Richard Matheson short story or any other previously published work, might be successful or it might fall by the wayside like so many other unproduced scripts from unproduced writers. Without the Matheson name, or backing from Hollywood insiders, I think this script would ultimately stand no more chance than any other good script.


Breanne

For some reason, I wasn't being notified by E-mail that all these posts were going up.  Damn!  I missed alot!

Well, I'm back now, and want to throw in my 4 cents as well.

I'm glad that the discussion has changed and there are several people that aren't just throwing out priase for this because it's a produced script from a pro writer.

My take on the situation is that someone decided to resurrect this old Matheson story, and went out and "hired" whoever this writer is (I think the actual writing credit was given to 3 writers?) to update the story.  I bet ya that it was already greenlighted before it was even written.  If that's indeed the case, we should all understand that it's not the quality, professionalism, or look of this script at all that got it produced...it was most likely already a done deal.

As for the "high concept" of the story or idea here, I have to disagree.  First of all, it's not even an original story...it's a Matheson story from 30 something years ago.  Since then,. we have seen this type of story play out many times.  I think Bee hit it on the head that the story here is very similar to the "Lost in Space" premise, which was a mighty big flop, both commerically and critically, and that was a big budget with a strong cast.  I also see alot of "Event Horizon" in here for some reason (another big flop).

I know this has many different aspects to it, but those different aspects are it's weakest aspects.  I'm referring to the nonstop action, once they get on the planet.  It's just not handled well at all, and for me at least, comes off as very juvenile.  The cliff scene doesn't work well and is very predictable and dull.  The constant fighting with the different creatures is really poorly done and downright boring.  Of course there are some things that do work, but the way this script stands now, the overall opinion I have is that it is medocre at best, and probably a bit below that even.  TYhere's just not enough cool scifi stuff here for it to succeed, and again, those pathetic creatures will be it's undoing and demise.

I guess I'm being overly critical and harsh here, and it's probably because it does anger me when I read (or see) something that just isn't very good, and it seems to be happening very often these days.

I saw "Righteous Kill" the other day.  I don't want to say that I disliked it or thought it was pure crap, but I will say that I knew the "twist" within 10 minutes, didn't buy the relationship of DeNiro and Gugino at all, and left thinking to myself, "how in the world did all these high profile A and B list actors agree to sign on for this medicocre at best movie?  I wish I had the answer, and if that answer lies within the way the spec script was written, then so be it.  But I know that it couldn't be based on the actual concept/story/plot, because it just wasn't that good.

Who knows...maybe I'm just nuts.  I don't know anymore.

Okay, group hug!

Hey DreamScale,
I do agree with you about the creatures. I hated them, but I hate all monsters. The only monsters that work for me are human monsters... except for Alien and Predator of course.

I think this script would have worked better if we never saw them. Just knowing something was out there picking them off would have worked, but that's just me.  

While I do not disagree with what Dreamscale and others say about this script I do disagree that this is not a good script. Like I have already said I did not really like the "movie". For my own tastes is was too action led, too fast paced, not intelligent enough to be a good Sci-Fi, weak characters and stupid monsters.

But, and this is a big but, I still do not think this is anything other than a good script. There are plenty of people out there who go to the cinema to watch movies like this. This will make it's money as long as the marketing and casting do their jobs. The writers will end up with another successful movie on their C.V.'s. It is a well structured script with lots of conflict and never gets boring. I just cannot see it being anything but a good script.

If any of us were given as assignment from a big studio to write a mindless actions flick aimed at the 15-25 audience based on a Matheson short story then this would hopefully something we would come up with. If the writer has been successful in his brief then surely this cannot be anything else but a good script regardless of the quality of the finished product. Remember Hollywood are not looking to make quality movies, making money is always going to be the ultimate aim. We all have to be aware of our potential market whenever we write anything. In fact I would go so far as to say before we even write out first slug-line we should surely be asking ourselves who this movie is going to be aimed at, what market are we writing for.  If this is a movie that the kids are going to want to see then the writer has done a great job.

Or am I missing something?


Dreamscale, your problem is much like mine, it is with the quality of Cinema nowadays, it is with the stupid MTV generation who seem to want fast pace, short scenes, no "boring" character development and so son. But I don't think you can use that as a reason why this script is bad. This script is not going to cause the collapse of narrative cinema as we know it, that seems to have already happened. This script is only trying to deliver what the public wants and in my opinion it seems to have succeeded in that.

One thing we should not be doing when reviewing scripts is letting the kind of movie it is dictate out thoughts, otherwise we might as well just read the Godfather every week.

Quoted from Murphy There are plenty of people out there who go to the cinema to watch movies like this. This will make it's money as long as the marketing and casting do their jobs.

I think this is the bottom line. If this movie is promoted properly, it will make its money back. If not, well, it still might make it back, I don’t know.

As a movie, a lot of problems with this script would be irrelevant. Who cares if some of the action scenes are muddled if they’re not muddled on screen? If the director knows how to set up an action sequence, muddled action scenes in the script won’t matter at all.

But as a script, we have to look at how to get agents or producers to look at our scripts at all in the first place. And that gets back to what Z said about premise. Something has to make them open your script in the first place.

In some ways, this script is a bad idea to look at because, as Dreamscale pointed out, it was probably green lighted prior to even being written. It’s had four different writers work on it at different times and it clearly shows evidence of more than one voice at different times in the script.

But in other ways, it’s the perfect script for us to examine. Because ultimately the thing that got it green lighted in the first place is the thing any amateur writer needs to get their script taken seriously to begin with. The fact that this was taken and punched up into an action movie shows the importance of placing marketability above personal desire if you want to sell a script.

Quoted from Grandma Bear Okay, group hug!

Hey I’m all with you on that!


Breanne

I said something before about picking a spec script rather than a studio one. I think people were assuming I was only referring to format. It was exactly for this reason I suggested it. The vast majority of movies are scripted after the studio has already been sold on the idea.

The Spec script is not a screenplay as such, it is our proposal. We are sales people selling an idea to a producer or studio and our spec is our only opportunity to do this. We have a much harder job than the guys who wrote countdown, we also have a very different job. They are writing a movie, we are selling our idea. Of course out spec needs to read like a movie and hopefully one day will become a movie but I think there is a huge difference between the two. And again this is why we are all here, we want to understand how we can sell our idea too.

It is also often said that a spec that does a good job of selling you as a writer may not ever get made but could well get you in the door and offers of work. So as well as selling our premise or idea we are also selling ourselves.

Next time we do a produced script I would really like to see a spec script and we should just focus on the one question "Why did this script get optioned?"

Quoted from Murphy Dreamscale, your problem is much like mine, it is with the quality of Cinema nowadays, it is with the stupid MTV generation who seem to want fast pace, short scenes, no "boring" character development and so on.

The comment here about the fast pace of scenes helps me to not feel so alone in my dislike for the pace of many shows today. There are times when it works, but I'm just wondering when this "fad" is going to die out. It seems that we are bounced around so much and it's like everyone is suffering from ADD.

Sandra

On that subject... The other day someone (in Hollywood no less) suggested I watch Rosemary's Baby. I have not seen that movie in a loooong time. Maybe even 20 years or so. Anyway, I curled up in bed and started watching. It did not take me long before it hit me why I don't really like "most" new movies nowadays. I realized I was watching art! That's the difference. At least IMHO. The movie felt "rich" if that makes sense. Besides the obvious story, directing and acting,... the camera movements, the lighting, editing... everything came together into a piece of art. I miss that. Sure there are movies out there that I enjoy, but I never get that feeling that I'm watching a piece of art.  After I was through watching, I thought about my own script and I realized it was as flat as the piece of paper it was printed on...

This is an excellent point, Pia. When scenes flash so fast, we barely get the chance to see anything. It works for action scenes I guess in the sense that it forces people to really pay attention, but it's like anything else: You don't want a steady diet of one thing.

Sandra

Hey GM and  Sandra, I totally agree with you guys here about appreciating quality in cinema.  It makes me feel kind of old and stale to say that the quality of movies (or music, or anything, actually) just isn't what it used to be, because I remember so vividly my Mom saying the same thing to me, so many years ago.  In no way am I saying that everything that comes out nowadays is piss poor, but the vast majority really is, and I feel that I'm definitely enough of a movie buff to be able to make that comment.

Most flicks these days are high on flash and extremely low on thought and content, and for me, that just doesn't cut it.

Case in point (and yes, I'm prepared for the attack after I make this statement).  I loved the first Bourne movie.  I thought it was extremely well done, and I was shocked how "real" Matt Damon made Jason Bourne seem.  I was even more impressed with Damon's onscreen fighting talents.

As for Bourne 2, I thought it was just OK...and the third in the franchise?  I hated it!  Why, you ask?  Well, in a nutshell, based on the lightening fast editing in 2 and 3, I couldn't realy "see" much of what was upposedly going on.  3 was much worse than 2 in this regard, and was also much more "dumbed down".  All 3 did well and were even reviewed pretty positively, which really shocked me.  But bottom line is that 2 and 3 were not nearly the movie that the 1st was.

Another great example is "The Omen".  The original still stands up today as a truly great work in just about all regards.  The dumbed down remake , although not God awful, seriously paled in comparisona nd is a great example of what's wrong in Hollywoodland.

I guess they just don't make 'em like they used to.

Quoted from AnotherWriter Has anyone seen The Mist?  You remember that big monster right at the end?  How would you write it?  'Cause this is how Frank Darabont wrote it: A HUGE CREATURE strides slowly by, blotting out the sun and half the sky.  No, it's not even huge -- it's fucking humungous, its shape barely discernable, alien and otherwordly.

Now I see the error of my ways.

I’m sorry but this writing sucks. The only thing that stands out here is that he threw the word fucking into the description. That doesn’t liven it up for me at all. It’s just the very overused word fucking. If all I have to do is throw the word fucking into my description to make it in Hollywood, fine, I’ll throw the word fucking into my description.

So that’s the difference between a pro and an amateur, huh? I’m sorry. But this is a dreadful example of “pro quality” screenwriting. The above description is a pile of shit and while it may be worth gold in Hollywood, nothing changes the fact that it’s shitty writing.

Like I said, if Hollywood wants the word fucking thrown into descriptions, fine I can just throw the word fucking into my descriptions. Maybe I’ll add some spelling and grammar errors, some on the nose dialogue, and some plot holes, and then I’ll have me a salable script in Hollywood.

Ridiculous.

Quoted from AnotherWriter You can be daring and post some pages over on the ArtfulWriter forum…

First let me make one thing perfectly clear. Don’t think for five seconds I’m afraid to put my writing up against a Hollywood pro. I’ll take a Hollywood pro on any day of the week.

I better pepper all my descriptions with the word fucking first before I post anything on any site for Hollywood pros or they’ll say my description is pedestrian.

Quoted from Dreamscale In no way am I saying that everything that comes out nowadays is piss poor, but the vast majority really is, and I feel that I'm definitely enough of a movie buff to be able to make that comment. Most flicks these days are high on flash and extremely low on thought and content, and for me, that just doesn't cut it.

They’ve got the formula down and now they make films like they’re coming off an assembly line. That’s what happens when art is turned into a business. To some degree it’s a necessary evil. I mean an artist has to make a living. And business people want to make money. To some degree it’s win-win.

The problem the way I see it is that there is a lot of good stuff that never gets a chance. It may not fit the Hollywood mold but it may be just as good and it may make a lot of money. But it gets ignored because it defies convention.

I don’t deny that there are a lot of bad scripts out there. The overwhelming majority. But there are some really good unconventional ones that get skipped over because they’re different and don’t immediately strike one as moneymakers. I’m not speaking as to the wrong or right of it, just the sadness.


Breanne

AnotherWriter, your recent post is much more professional, thought out, and well worded than you previous one(s).  I understand what you're saying and can stomach your opinions much easier than I could before.  These are still merely your opinions and the fact that they aren't exactly what others have, is perfectly fine and normal.

I want to comment on your Darabant Myst example, if I could.  I'm a HUGE Stephen King fan, and feel that he is the true master of the written horror story.  Most of his works, however, don't translate to film very well, or maybe I should say, just haven't translated to film very well for whatever reason.  I feel that his written word is so visual, powerful, and well put together, that the film adaptation is routinely a letdown for his fans.  The other big problem is that his characterization is so vivid and well done, that it requires a much longer movie than Hollywood can (will) make.

As for The Myst, I saw it in the theater (and read it long ago), and left saying to myself that I liked it, and thought it was well done, but I definitely didn't love it, or thought it was great.  Your quote from Darabant on the final creature's appearance is spot on for me, as the creature was exactly how he described it.  It was absolutely huge, strange, impossible to really describe, and because of that, it worked well.  Being that it was the basically the last scene of the movie and it only was on screen for what, 5...10 seconds, made this passage perfect for me.

But the opposite is true in Countdown.  The creatures here are onscreen for much of the movie and other than the "real" theme behind the movie (inability to alter our future, even when we already know what it is), they represent the main conflict for basically all the characters.  Much more effot was necessary to draw these things out.  Much more creativity was needed to make the different creatures, actually different.  The way it reads now, as I've said a few times, comes off as juvenile, and poorly done.

You come across as an inteligent person who knows what you're talking about, and because of that, your input is appreciated.  It will be very interesting to see what this movie actually looks like when it's released.  It will be even more interesting to see how it fares at the Box Office and to the critics.  My bet is that it will be a commercial and critical flop, but I've been wrong before (a few times!).  Kidding...  We'll see.

Take care.    

Hey Bre, I agree with what you're saying as well.  I am in no way opposed to swearing, even in a description pasaage, but I don't think it really adds much of anything most of the time.  In Countdown, it added nothing and came across as out of place and immature.

You're definitely spot on in your other point also.  Hollywood has become stuck in a rut for sure.  Very few movies that are truly daring or different are made lately.  And it's quite sad.  There are many, many great ideas out there that will never be given a chance, because of Hollywood's closed door policy and ideology of what a script is supposed to be.

I'm sure I'll take some shit for this comment, but I think my script, "Fade to White" is a perfect example.  I totally appreciate all the feedback I received, and respect the opinins of those who chimed in, but I feel that because it didn't follow standard horror plotlines and conventions, it was quickly determined that it wouldn't work, and wasn't "right".  As I said over and over in the previous SC, I purposely chose to fly as far away from the typical Hollywood course as I could.  I wanted just about everything to be different and feel different.  I wasn't going for standard tension and cheap frights.  I wanted there to be an extremely long and slow build with a ton of dialogue....2 aspects you don't often get with horror.

Based on feedback, I wasn't entirely successful, but I still believe whole heartedly that my script would make for a unique, and successful movie franchise. I don't portray myself as the next greatest writer out there in any way, but like you said, I also wouldn't ever shy away from being pitted against a pro.  If I didn't shine, so be it.  I'd sure give it my best though, and I think that's what it's all about.

Quoted from Dreamscale I am in no way opposed to swearing, even in a description pasaage, but I don't think it really adds much of anything most of the time.  In Countdown, it added nothing and came across as out of place and immature.

I’m not opposed to it either. I’ve read scripts where it was stupid and I’ve read others where it worked quite well. It depends on the tone of the story. And yes, with Countdown I think it definitely worked against the tone of the story.

The thing about the Darabont description that bugs me is that AnotherWriter gives this speech about how much more animated pro writers are than amateurs and then offers as an example a piece of description that is not one bit better or more concise than some amateur scripts I’ve read.

I’ve seen some good amateur scripts. Some had swearing in the description. Some didn’t. I still don’t see what is so special about Hollywood pro writers over some of the really good amateur ones I’ve seen.

AnotherWriter makes it sound like making it in Hollywood is easy. All you have to do is write like the pros. Well, maybe I can hire AnotherWriter to fix my scripts and make them impossible to fail. Maybe he can fix my stuff and guarantee me buzz and assignment work.

Quoted from Dreamscale I'm sure I'll take some shit for this comment, but I think my script, "Fade to White" is a perfect example.  I totally appreciate all the feedback I received, and respect the opinions of those who chimed in, but I feel that because it didn't follow standard horror plotlines and conventions, it was quickly determined that it wouldn't work, and wasn't "right".

I can believe that. I can’t fault anyone for defying convention given some of the stuff I’ve written. But I’ve also tried to write according to the Hollywood formula and produced some of the worst crap I ever wrote. In that regard, I don’t even fault the Hollywood pros. I understand that they’re often paid to take a good idea and squeeze it into a mold for pressing. In some ways it takes more creativity to write with a formula.

But when I consider what the writers of Countdown were probably paid versus the nothing I get paid, I expect to see writing scores above my own and I don’t see it. It’s going to take more than some fucks in the description to convince me they’re worth that much more than me.


Breanne

Right on Bre, I'm with ya here.

This script IMO isn't very impressive at all, as I've said several times.  No characterization, horrible creatures, little imagination, and for me, dull, unreal action sequences.  There are also alot of situations that just don't ring "real" for me.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could just "write like a pro" and be able to have Hollywood take notice and sign us up?  It obviously doesn't work that way, and never will.  Guess we all might as well throw some fucks and shits into our descriptions, and we'll be on our way!