Quoted from Dreamscale Read this last night.  I'm sure I'm going to be standing by myself here, but I thought this was pretty weak in all regards, including the actual writing.  I'll comment on the actual discussion in a bit but I do have some general comments I have to make. First of all, I'm go to on record and say that this movie is going to be a commercial and critical flop, and if the budget is anywhere near where it most likely needs to be, it will lose a ton of money as well. For me, this just didn't work at all.  The characters were cardboard cutouts of characters we've seen a thousand times before.  Very little characterization, and almost nothing that made anyone unique, or appealing. The story, although unique in a few ways, didn't bring much to the table either.  I found it quite dull, even though there were so many attempts at high action and the like.  It just came off as too much being thrown together, in a sort of "Bang, Bang, Bang" way.  The creatures were downright ridiculous and very poorly described (I didn't realize they were using their tongues until near the end).  And when different colored creatures were brought in that did differnt things, it was like a video game from the early 90's...WEAK! Finally, the writing itself...hmmm.  If I didn't know better, I'd say this came from an inexperienced, amateur screenwriter.  I found many mistakes, in terms of mis spellings, misuse of words, etc.  Also quite a few clunky sentences and the like.  The action scenes weren't done very visually at all, and I just found the writing overall to be subpar. Sorry to get off track, but I just felt obliged to throw these comments out there.

Dreamscale, everything you've said, I am very close to agreeing with. Maybe I'm not being quite so harsh sounding and I won't go so far as saying it will be a flop, but I do feel exactly what you're saying: especially, the cardboard cutout characters. As I mentioned in my review, I thought it might be dredged up characters from an old Star Trek, but just different names attached.

Also, I too wasn't sure about the creatures. "The Hooks" I really didn't get until later.

Regarding Michael's comment about Act 1 being too long-- I think I know exactly where he's coming from. I'm not so swift with structure yet, but what I felt was that I was very DRAGGED DOWN by the long beginning-- the many names flung at me in the beginning-- and I know it would be better visually, but for a read, it felt hard to take.

I agree with Pia in that if we feel that SOMETHING IS WORKING HERE-- then we need to ask ourselves: What that something might be? Especially since I get the feeling that many of us agree that there are certain "put offs" regarding it. But still, it has its attraction.

Sandra

Quoted from AnotherWriter Seriously?!  You think there are writers here that write "far" better than these A-List pros?!  I can't help but smile at that notion.  But it's that level of ignorance that keeps many pre-pro writers below-the-line. These comments are very typical of VERY inexperienced writers/readers.

You may be right in a sense, but let's not forget the value of inexperience. Please don't put it down in a derogatory fashion. I can't comment on Dreamscale's level of ability, but I sure do admire his insight in this thread.

Please put me on the list!!! I'll sign my name to it gladly as one of those who think that yes!!! There are writers here that are working at a "far" better level than "those A-List Pros".

I'll start with Mike Shelton, Pia, Cindy and Michael Previtt who is exceedingly humble about his works. Yes, a lot of the work needs the typical revisions and polishing, but I'd invest in these people.

Also, I should mention here, in defense of A-list pros who maybe bang out something without the substance we admire, that when one gets to that level, it's easy to fall into the "comfort zone". You know-- when you've got it down pat and it looks good and is basically a winner, but to a serious critic-- the flaws are obvious.

I do think they deserve the level of comfort they're at-- even if their work isn't quite as good as it could be. They are only human and they might be terribly burnt out from just getting to where they are.

I'm about half way through the posts so far and I feel that when I read someone's comments, whether positive or negative, I can agree. I'm terrible that way-- really easily swayed and that's why I don't read the comments until after I've done my critique, but I feel that I tend to resonate with what dreamscale has said.

It's not that I don't think the movie will do well, but I feel like it's cookie cutter-- like there's nothing new here. Again though-- this is coming from someone who's jaded from age. I think that a whole new up-and-coming generation will love this movie.

Sandra

Quoted from Grandma Bear Interesting Breanne! Maybe we should do that one of yours next just for comparison's sake?

Pia,

I wasn’t trying to suggest such a thing and I don’t want to bypass others who are waiting to have their scripts read. I just wanted to put my own head on the chopping block instead of someone else’s. I know my script already needs to be revised. It’s three years old and I’ve improved a lot since it was originally written. I wouldn’t feel good about using it before it had a chance to be brought up to my current standards.

The reason I ask is because, other than the ordinary desire to improve, I’m intrigued by these remarks:

Quoted from AnotherWriter So, yes, I would definitely say that if Countdown was written by a newbie, he/she would get picked up.  Because (IMO) it surpasses the writing quality of many Nicholl finalists -- and these guys get hot reads in Hollywood.  Some get repped by a top-three agency, some get studio-level assignments.  Thus, Countdown will take a writer very far -- if not through a top contest, then by cold reads.

According to AnotherWriter, this script would sell if it was written by an unknown. I wish there was some way to test that hypothesis because I can’t help the sinking feeling that if I tried to sell this script with my own name on it, I would get nowhere.

Quoted from AnotherWriter I have read A LOT of scripts in my time.

So have I. And I’m intrigued by this professed ability to tell pro from amateur. Because I haven’t been able to do so. Certainly I can tell a script that’s obviously not professional quality. But I’ve also read pro scripts I would have sworn were written by amateurs if I didn’t know better.

I wonder if someone could tell the difference between a pro script and an amateur script written by a good writer - without knowing up front who wrote which script.

I wish there was some way I could write a script anonymously and have it presented alongside a pro script to see if anyone could really tell the difference. But how can you get a pro script without anyone knowing it’s by a pro?

With Bee Girl, although it’s admittedly absurdist in nature, I attempted to write a much tighter story technically than I usually do. And I think I succeeded for the most part. But I’m not sure how much of that was due to trying to do it and how much was due to improvement over time.

So I’m very intrigued by the notion that a script from a Hollywood pro is of such quality that it would sell even if shopped by an amateur. I would like to break into screenwriting professionally and I’m just trying to figure out what exactly the problem is. I believe I have the talent to succeed (although I could be delusional) but I certainly don’t want to fail solely because of a problem that’s so obvious to someone else.

What I‘m getting from AnotherWriter is that success is guaranteed if the script is as good as Countdown. Is it possible to write a script so good that it cannot fail? That you’ll be guaranteed to get noticed? Because if it is, I’m certainly interested in doing so.

And to AnotherWriter, please don’t take what I’m saying as being a smart aleck. I’m being totally serious here.

Quoted from mcornetto I didn't read your sci-fi script but still I probably wouldn't call this script superior.  What I would call it is more marketable.  And that likely doesn't have much to do with your writing or your script - it mostly comes from name-recognition.  This script automatically had Matheson attached, once Brandt came on board it was probably a given that the script would be green-lighted.  No matter what changes you make to your script it isn't going to give it name-recognition so don't knock yourself about over it.

Well, see, I tend to agree with you on this. One person will say, “Hollywood is full of favoritism and nepotism. You pretty much have to know someone.” But then another person will say, “Oh you’re just making excuses for your failure.” As a writer, I want to improve. And I want to write a salable script. But if someone can read my script and instantly tell I’m an amateur, then I certainly don’t want that to happen either.

I’ve got a headache -- haha.


Breanne

I was serious.

This SC thing is not meant to promote anyone nor their scripts, but rather to try to learn something. I thought perhaps it would be a good excercise to discuss  a script that one of the participants here wrote a script and wonders why this one and not mine....

Especially if it is the same genre.

Fuck!! I'm toasted. I can't evn spell. Football season is BAD for my health...
Please forgive me....  

I think what Breanne is asking is getting us dangerously close to the breaking the rules thread. But it is exactly the same question I ask myself every time I read a produced screenplay and the reason why I was all for us reading a produced script here. Just what is the mystery ingredient that we are all trying to achieve?

Michael has had a go at answering and I agree with what he says, these guys just write a script, they break the rules we try so hard to stick to and just write a scene in the way that gives us the information in the clearest and easiest way they can. This is one main reason why I am 100% confident I could tell you whether a screenplay I am reading is from a pro or from an amateur (there are always exceptions, and I have read a couple of scripts from members here that get close to it, Michael Previtt is one, Sandra got that right, I have still not read Pimp Juice yet but Shelton of course is close to being a "real" screenwriter anyway I guess).

Is this a spec script or has been come out of someone seeing I am Legend and taking a look at something else Matheson wrote and assigning this script to be written? Because this is a no brainer, popcorn action movie I tend to think this is on assignment and the pitch was for exactly that. But it is not just the writing, it stands out for me because of the way it has expertly been structured, Sandra called it a cookie cutter script and she is right, it is exactly that. It is a professionally written script that follows the expected winning formula exactly. The vast majority of the specs on this board do not do that and it does make this script stand out a mile. And the best thing is that it seems to do it so effortlessly, nothing seems forced, everything just seems to fit together. The the hardest things to make often look simple, I think anyone who thinks this is no better than many of the scripts here are being deceived by the simplicity of it.

To sum up, to me it feels like a "proper" script when reading it because it has been written by a professional screenwriter who knows what he is doing. Screenwriting is as easy and as difficult as that. I think anybody on here who manages to pull of a screenplay like this will become successful.

Maybe I'm a bad hostess after all.  

I've just read Gm's post #46 and I agree and appreciate much of what he's said. The only thing I disagree with is his opinion that there's: not much real good stuff on Simply; otherwise, I think he's put a great deal of thought into his post and he's also mentioned the idea that was similar to my feeling of "paint by numbers". This was regarding Syd Field and although, like I've said, I'm not swift with structure, I intuitively feel that this one's very spot on.

It's true. The structure is very important as is the premise and these two things might be the glue that holds it together even if it fails in other areas-- especially character, which to me really fell flat.

Sandra

Quoted from Murphy I think what Breanne is asking is getting us dangerously close to the breaking the rules thread.

Well I wasn’t trying to do that. I’m not really talking about “rules.” I’m talking about ingredients.

Quoted from Murphy …I am 100% confident I could tell you whether a screenplay I am reading is from a pro or from an amateur…

I wish there was some way to test that. Sounds awful easy to say.

Quoted from Murphy …I think anyone who thinks this is no better than many of the scripts here are being deceived by the simplicity of it.

I don’t think anyone said that. I said there are some scripts here I would rather see at the theater.

Quoted from Murphy I think anybody on here who manages to pull of a screenplay like this will become successful.

Well, if that’s the case, we should all become successful because there’s no reason why we can’t pull off a script like this.

What I want to know is what specifically is it about this script that makes it so salable.

1. Good concept.
2. New things regularly introduced. Surprises every page?

What else?



About the “rules:”

There aren’t any rules. There never were. There’s only an industry standard and the best way to tell the story. Industry standard is something that yes, even the pros use. This script is written in industry standard format.

If people hate format altogether, then write your scripts in Times New Roman if you want. I don’t care. No one can make you do anything. People can write their scripts whatever way they want. There’s an industry standard. Abide by it or don’t.

I want to know what makes this script salable. That’s all I care about.


Breanne

I hear you.... and for me it is the concept/idea that I like. Sure, some parts remind me of Aliens/Contact and whatever, but I think it is the premise along with the constant introduction of new information/danger/mystery whatever that makes it a page turner for me. Even in the "down" moments, the story is moved forward.

I seriopuslty did not want to put this down...

Maybe that's not a good explanation, but that's the best way I can describe it....

Quoted from Grandma Bear I hear you.... and for me it is the concept/idea that I like. Sure, some parts remind me of Aliens/Contact and whatever, but I think it is the premise along with the constant introduction of new information/danger/mystery whatever that makes it a page turner for me. Even in the "down" moments, the story is moved forward. I seriopuslty did not want to put this down... Maybe that's not a good explanation, but that's the best way I can describe it....

Okay. What about character development? Is it seriously not that big of a deal?

What I mean is; can this script have better character development without sacrificing the other ingredients? Would more character development slow it down and ruin what’s already there that’s strong?

Or is character development something to be sacrificed for to keep the story flowing? It’s a page turner. Would more character development hurt that?


Breanne

No it would not hurt. It would make it even better...

Great. Thanks Pia.

So let me get this straight.

If I can come up with a good premise. And I can have some twist or another on every page. And if GM and AnotherWriter think it’s pro quality. I’m guaranteed success.

And if I can develop my characters along the way, that’s even better.

Okey dokey. I’ll get to work on it.


Breanne

No... there are no guarantees, but you would be ahead.

From what I hear from people "that know" is that there are sooooo many scripts floating around and everyone is looking for "IT" (not the movie).  If you truly have a KICK ASS script and it's floating around. It will get noticed.

SS is a perfect place to post your script because industry pro's ARE perusing this site. But as mentioned already, the market is flooded by crud and it takes something special to get noticed. High concept, great logline and so on. If you truly have a kick ass script that studios are looking for, I do believe they will find you...

I'm not talking about Breanne now, she's an awesome writer, but a lot of the times writers think their scripts are gold when they are not.  Listening to fellow writers feedback is IMHO key to improve your work. Don't think you know better and that comments don't apply to you...

Quoted from Grandma Bear ... a lot of the times writers think their scripts are gold when they are not.  Listening to fellow writers feedback is IMHO key to improve your work. Don't think you know better and that comments don't apply to you...

This is excellent advice!!! Listening to other writers-- their opinions, their subtle or blatant insights is a way to open up a whole new reality to the way you view your script.

Sandra

So much to read here, but let me get my reply to AnotherWriter. Well, i read Tarantino's script Inglorious Bastards and he used words like F***, S***, but hey, he had them even in the dialogue.

I don't know who wrote it but this script looks more like a PG-13, so what's the purpose of it? As for Terry Rossio's paragraph you posted, did i read any of those words? No!!! Look i don't wanna make this somewhat personal, and i think we could never end with this discussion.

I have read more scripts that you could think, but saying that Darabont, Gilroy write like this doesn't justify anything. I'd wait for another script of these guys before calling them pros, like you did in a previous post and i'm not talking about Michael Brandt & Derek Haas.

Above all i liked it, just i don't think the cursing words are at their right place.

Between, page 48 Ryker and Daya go into the jungle and in the dialogue is written Drake.