Wow, this thread really took off. Lots of interesting points.

Here is an interesting question: “If written on spec, would a script like this one help to launch a newcomer’s career?”

I say yes. Lots of reasons, but IMHO, here’s the most important: it has a commercial premise.

“A group of astronauts get stuck in an alien planet where they find their own dead bodies and struggle to flee before their dark fate comes true.”

The premise is definitely interesting and for those not familiar with the Twilight Zone episode (like me) it’s even fresh.

Enticing. Original. And it can be described in one sentence. This is the definition of High Concept.

The problem with most amateur scripts is that they are written around lousy premises. Based on ideas that are not interesting, not fresh, and/or not simple. That’s why  amateur writers hate loglines so much. They usually can’t sum up their scripts in one interesting sentence because, usually, the script isn’t based on an interesting and simple premise.

In his blog, Christopher Lockhart, formerly the Executive Story Editor at ICM, now working at William Morris Agency, talks about this same issue, explaining that the problem with most amateur scripts floating around is the lack of a compelling concept.

I anyone’s interested, check the link below and scroll down to the post titled “Think Hallewood”, which illustrates a Hollywood’s top dog view of the subject discussed (and it's hilarious)

http://twoadverbs.blogspot.com/2006_08_01_archive.html

Coincidentally, Terry Rossio at worldplayer also remarks the importance of choosing a solid premise first.

http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp01.A.Foot.in.the.Door.html

http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp02.Strange.Attractor.html

http://www.wordplayer.com/columns/wp03.Beachcombing.html

I’m not saying the premise is the only thing important, but it’s the first thing to consider. I think that coming up with a strong concept puts you ahead of most of the other struggling screenwriters.

Of course, the execution of the premise also has to be good. While I’m in the minority here, I feel that the execution here, while not flawless, was pretty good. If this gets made, I don’t see it sweeping the Oscars or making any critic’s best list, but I can perfectly imagine a group of teenagers coming out of the theatre and texting their friends “Cool movie, go see it”.

Some interesting comments have been made about the story. I’ll hold off my comments for now, while the commerciality of the project is still being discussed.

Quoted from Mr.Z it has a commercial premise. “A group of astronauts get stuck in an alien planet where they find their own dead bodies and struggle to flee before their dark fate comes true.” The premise is definitely interesting and for those not familiar with the Twilight Zone episode (like me) it’s even fresh.

Right on Z.

I agree 100%. For example, I think Shelton's Pimp Juice will get a lot of reads because of the title and the outrageous unique premise.

Now, I have a question because of something Breanne mention (love to here you comment) I’ve never used the words “format” and “story structure” interchangeable. To me they are different. The way I understood it is…


Format is Slug Line, Narrative (4 lines or less), Character/Dialogue at the center of the page at however many margins, basically the rules for a professional ‘looking’ script easily accomplished with Final Draft… there’s a little star system that Don uses three is the best, but the stars are no reflection on how good the story is just how whether the ‘format’ is correct…

Story Structure which is Ghost, Hero, Opponent, Ally, character introduction, character relationship introduction, hero’s world, inciting event, plot point and where they are placed how they escalate, Acts


Then there's genre which is twist on the story structure. And I agree that adding more character development will likely hurt the pacing, combining genre is always a battle because they requre different story beats. The Dark Knight was great with the crime genre, but the action genre caused it to draw on maybe 20 mintues to long, because action takes up alot of time, but only it's out adds plot. I think we have to remind ourselves the writer isn't here to defend himself. Like Dreamscal was prior and was able soundly defend some of his decisions.


I agree with Pia, this script had me too. I do agree though with the criticisms about the descriptions but that’s only in script and it is problem there, but, and I don’t want to trivialize that I thought the writer was way too intrusive with is colored commentary, I thought there’s a lot of “tell”, but that doesn’t me he didn’t show as well; therefore, I will say this and I’ve always believed this, when it comes to a script, it’s about images, moments because that’s what will translate onto the screen. I’ve never watched a movie and thought, wow, that’s good format. Like Saw when that guy that’s been dead the entire movie rises up and it’s revealed he’s Jigsaw. I don’t care, what they actually wrote on the page as much as I do that they’ve created a good, great moment. I’m not saying this had moments that big, but it sure did have a lot small and consistent ones.


The best compliment a screenplay can get is if after reading your script someone refers to a moment in a movie they liked, but it came from you’re script that’s because of a good character, moments, actions, plot points in the form of relief, tension, redemption, revenge and so on


I don't know what else we can discuss I always find it difficult to stay on one topic, which out justifying which means going into another topic, but at least we have an idea whose on TEAM Another Writer and TEAM Dreamscale, lol.


For the record I enjoyed both Alien and The Fifth Element.

Quoted from NiK i read Tarantino's script Inglorious Bastards and he used words like F***, S***, but hey, he had them even in the dialogue.

I've read that one as well. To be honest with you, if I read a script here by one of us members I would complain about it in my comments. The difference here, (I hate when I can't articulate my thoughts!!) is that in IB and in Countdown, I never even noticed those things. I was too caught up in the story.

Quoted from NiK I don't know who wrote it but this script looks more like a PG-13, so what's the purpose of it? I'd wait for another script of these guys before calling them pros

Pro or professional really just means you get paid to do it. I can hire two different plumbing companies to come and do work at my house. One may be excellent and the other might suck big time... they are both professionals though...

Quoted from Busy Little Bee I have a question because of something Breanne mention (love to here you comment) I’ve never used the words “format” and “story structure” interchangeable. To me they are different…

You asked for it ….

To address this, I first have to point out that the story itself and story structure can’t be the same thing. You can tell two different stories with the same story structure and you can tell the same story with two different story structures. You can get a story credit while not writing the screenplay. You can write a screenplay and then alter the story structure in a rewrite.

So where does story structure belong? With the story or with the format?

If you want to say that format is only the font you use, etc., or whatever, then I see your point.

But what is story structure?

Story structure is the form your story takes.

Here’s a definition of format:


for·mat  

for·mat [fáwr màt]
n (plural for·mats)
1.  structure: the way in which something is presented, organized, or arranged

vt (past for·mat·ted, past participle for·mat·ted, present participle for·mat·ting, 3rd person present singular for·mats)
1.  arrange layout of: to arrange the layout or organization of something  

Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2004 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.



The instant you start to tell a story, there’s some sort of structure to it. It takes on some sort of form. Since the story structure you choose to write your story in is the form your story takes, I would consider that part of the format arena. The story structure can be examined independently of the story itself.

However;

While the story and story structure may be technically separable, as a writer, I think of them as inseparable. What I mean by that is that you can’t tell your story in the most effective way possible without utilizing both the creative and technical aspects of storytelling.

You can make a story up off the top of your head. But if you want to maximize its impact, then you examine what makes an effective story effective. In that regard, for a writer, story and the form it takes are inseparable. I would basically consider anything that’s a common technique of storytelling to be format.

It seems like the word format has become a taboo subject. If you criticize something now, suddenly it seems there’s someone crying, “Oh you’re the format police. You’re trying to throw a bunch of ‘rules’ on me.”

Well, if someone hates or resents placing their story into some sort of form, then they are more than welcome to do with their story whatever they wish. If a writer’s idea of format is Courier Font, and that writer hates format, then he or she can put their script in any font they wish. But that writer shouldn’t complain when agents won’t look at it because the industry standard is Courier. Writers can rage against the machine or make whatever concessions they’re willing to make.

I personally am willing to make many concessions, and make no apologies for it, because I believe my work is of more value being seen at all, varied from my original vision, than remaining true to an original vision that’s never known.

My point is that there’s no point in arguing over anything that doesn’t serve me as a writer. I simply don’t want to argue about it. Whatever way sells your screenplay is the correct way to write it, in my opinion. Whatever makes your script valuable in the market.

Viewing audiences criticize movies with their wallets.

Quoted from Busy Little Bee …at least we have an idea whose on TEAM Another Writer and TEAM Dreamscale, lol.

I thought we were all on the same team with the unified goal of becoming successful writers.


Breanne

Quoted from Mr.Z The problem with most amateur scripts is that they are written around lousy premises. Based on ideas that are not interesting, not fresh, and/or not simple. That’s why  amateur writers hate loglines so much. They usually can’t sum up their scripts in one interesting sentence because, usually, the script isn’t based on an interesting and simple premise. I’m not saying the premise is the only thing important, but it’s the first thing to consider. I think that coming up with a strong concept puts you ahead of most of the other struggling screenwriters.

Hey Z, thanks for your post. I understand what you’re saying. I would like to discuss what makes a great premise.

How can you know your premise is good or bad?

I understand what you’re saying about simplicity. And that’s a great criterion. But what else? Even simple ideas can be bad. I find it difficult to know. While I may personally love a premise, someone else may think it stinks.

It seems like either way you look at it, there’s some element of chance when you’re unknown. That’s why I get frustrated when people try to insinuate that this script would sell even if written by an amateur. I like the premise too but I don’t see how anyone can consider the fact that this is based on the work of Richard Matheson, originally written by an already produced director, and doctored by previously produced writers, and conclude that had nothing to do with this script being produced.

In my mind, this script had an obvious advantage over an original one by an unproduced writer - even if they were of the same writing quality.

I’m not trying to blame failure on being a Hollywood outsider (despite what some may say), I just can’t ignore the ten thousand pound gorilla in the room, you know?

But I don’t deny that this script could sell on its own merits. I don’t deny that at all. I just think it’s silly to ignore its obvious advantage. But I do think it could sell on its own merits.

But assuming you don’t have a Richard Matheson short story to base your script on, and you want to create a compelling original premise, how do you know it’s good enough?


Breanne

Quoted from Breanne Mattson How can you know your premise is good or bad?

If I had the answer, I would be rich.

Like you well said, you may love a premise which somebody else may think it stinks. I agree that this is extremely subjective.

And the thing gets even trickier when you’re evaluating the potential of a concept you came up with. It’s always harder to be objective about your own work.

I think it’s impossible to come up with a definition that could include every possible good concept and rule out every bad one. The best thing we can do is to try to spot some common characteristics that good concepts have, like “simple”, “fresh”, “enticing”. If you haven’t already, check out Rossio’s articles linked above; he does a pretty good analysis.

And there’s also your gut. I’ve read many times that high concept is like porn; you can’t define it but you surely recognize it when you see it.  When you read a logline in the trades or see a movie trailer and the concept is compelling, you just feel a little something. Something which makes you think “I wanna see this movie”

The “wow” factor. You can’t define it but it’s easy to spot.

“A young cop must disable a bomb”

Lame concept.

“A young cop must save the passengers of a bus that has a bomb set to explode if the bus goes below 50 MPH”

Wow factor. Some may think this is lame. But most didn’t.

“An wrongly accused man struggles to prove his innocence”

Lame concept.

“In a future where criminals are arrested before the crime occurs, a despondent cop struggles on the lam to prove his innocence for a murder he has not yet committed.”

Wow factor.

“A psychologist struggles to cure a troubled patient”

Lame concept.

“A psychologist struggles to cure a troubled boy who is haunted by a bizarre affliction – he sees dead people”

Wow factor.

I think the best thing we could do is to study and analyze loglines as much as we do with screenplays. We have to keep track of which kinds of concepts are circulating the spec market right now.

There’s a site, which I cannot recommend hardly enough: http://www.trackingb.com

New posts are pa$$word protected, but after a couple of weeks they are free for anyone to read. You can check out who’s buying and (more important) what are they buying; they usually post the loglines.

Some further reading about the subject which I strongly recommend: http://twoadverbs.web.aplus.net/loglinearticle.htm

Oh, and by the way, I think you made some very interesting comments about the script we’re discussing. I plan to address them (and add some of my own) once we shift to other subjects of discussion.

Hey Z,

Thanks for the response. I appreciate your examples (although the lame concept about the guy proving his innocence is practically the logline for The Fugitive -- haha).

Quoted from Mr.Z I think you made some very interesting comments about the script we’re discussing. I plan to address them (and add some of my own) once we shift to other subjects of discussion.

Hey I’m sorry I’ve been clogging up the discussion here. I’m just trying to get the most out of this. You guys can go on and talk about whatever you want.

Honestly, I really don’t feel like I can discuss this script. Everyone seems to agree it’s not perfect yet I feel as though I can’t really criticize it either. Because I feel like it gets taken differently than I intend.

If I praise it, that seems to get ignored. If I criticize it, it seems to get taken as if I hated it utterly. If I say anything about problems with the script, I get told I’m treading dangerously close to bringing the dreaded f-word (format) into the discussion. Or I get basically told I’m just jealous because these pro writers are so much better than me, it’s silly to question them.

At least that’s the way I feel. I feel like I’ve spent more time trying to explain myself than engaging in any genuine discussion. I just can’t seem to effectively express myself here. I feel worn out -- haha.

All I can really say is that I’m not as impressed as I think I should be. I think it’s a good story and a good premise but I’m very disappointed in a way because I felt the writing quality was much lower than I expected. And as much as I liked it, ultimately I thought it was forgettable. As a movie, it would be the kind of movie I would see on TV a couple years later and say, “I think I saw that.” (Well honestly, I probably would never go to see it in the first place.)

But yeah, you guys feel free to move on anytime you want.


Breanne

It isn't the dreaded f word. It's just that these discussions came out of a thread called breaking the rules and therefore are not supposed to be about rules.  They are supposed to be about story and what works in the script and what doesn't.  There isn't a problem with you bringing up format issues as a personal dislike. But there is a problem with trying to make them a topic of discussion.  So that is why people were coming down hard on you when you wanted to discuss format issues.

Hope that helps.  

Probably this script could be the one to open a career to a new screenwriter, even one of us here and this is where i agree with Mr.Z.

The script ain't a big a deal over all, but if you consider what their doing with Star Wars saga (i mean the cartoon flick that just hit cinemas)
this is a gem. I'm not a sci-fi fan, and i don't pretend to be but i can see this script turned into a movie, make it own money (probably more than its
budget).

As Mr.Z already pointed out having a great concept not just makes your script marketable but i guess it makes you more enthusiastic in writing it. Or am
i wrong?

The concept of Countdown is very interesting, and keeps you interested in reading the script. Z made a logline for the script, and he did it right with
just a simple sentence.

Now, i do think the script is not that good, particular reasons are that i never really felt anything for any of the characters, they were too many and
to me it was hard to give everyone the right amount of scenes. I think the character of Mill is weak, to me she needs more scenes to give us more insight
about her personality. But, i hardly felt anything for any characters, more than them i was curious how all this fate thing would turn out, it was
mystery that made me read it not the characters.

The only character with a decent ark, is Finn, because he changes not that much but he does. To me Ryker was the right guy that we all have seen on TV,
film, books etc, there was nothing interesting about him. Somehow i knew it that he was going to make the right decision and not break his own rules.

Geez, now that i remember i think there's a film out there, in space i guess it's called Robinsons in Space with William Hurt, Heather Graham and the
great Gary Oldman. If anyone has seen that film will see that there are some similar things. In the end we understand that when they landed in that planet
they had gone ahead in time, they were in the future. I don't wanna ruin the ending for those who haven't seen it, but the other will know the similarities.

As for the format, the script bothered me with all that cursing words somehow i still feel that they don't feet to this script even if they seem right
for others. Huh!

The script is dated November, 2005, that leads me thinking there will be or there is another draft (maybe a better one) out there with some changes but
i could be wrong.

So as i posted before, i like the premise or lets say the concept, but i still think it could have been written better. When it comes out I'll get myself
to watch it, first for the great story which i love, second I'm curious about Brandt directorial debut.

Cheers
Nik

Quoted from Breanne Mattson I get told I’m treading dangerously close to bringing the dreaded f-word (format) into the discussion.

Breanne, I think you are referring to something I said and I apologize if I gave you the wrong impression. I never meant it like that at all. Like Michael said it just reminded me of that Breaking the Rules discussion that incidentally until the script club started I thought was the best thread to ever appear on these boards. It was just me trying to explain my my own cackhanded way how I can tell the difference between a pro and an amateur script, in terms of the writing style anyway. Not once was I having a dig at you nor anybody else in here. I enjoy reading peoples different opinions on these matters, I value what you bring to the discussion. We are all here trying to learn something after all.

Quoted Text All I can really say is that I’m not as impressed as I think I should be. I think it’s a good story and a good premise but I’m very disappointed in a way because I felt the writing quality was much lower than I expected. And as much as I liked it, ultimately I thought it was forgettable. As a movie, it would be the kind of movie I would see on TV a couple years later and say, “I think I saw that.” (Well honestly, I probably would never go to see it in the first place.)

I am of the same opinion as you here. I can see that it is a very well written script and an amazing premise but it does fall flat. I don't however think this is the result of the writer not doing a good job but more that the script has been written exactly to hit a target that will perhaps bring the movie the most success but not necessarily bring the best reviews. Certainly not something I would rush to go and watch.

* For what it is worth I would much rather this had not been such a high action obvious big budget popcorn flick but more of a drama led, character driven drama/thriller. That was what I was expecting from the premise anyway. And If I had written this script that is what I would have tried to achieve. HaHa, notice I did say try!

Oh, and Mr. Z some great info there, thanks. I need to find some reading time.

Breanne,

everyone appreciates your input and thoughts. Everyone elses input and thoughts as well of course. I actually think this discussion about the commercial appeal/concept/premise was a good one. Why it worked for some and not for others. Why this was picked up and why others don't get picked up. At least I got something out of it.

This script was chosen because we decided to discuss a produced script instead of a board member's script this time. We decided on thriller for a change and a script where the movie had not come out yet. Fitting that criteria, there were simply not that many scripts to chose from, haha. The list was pretty short. It would have been nice if this one was Oscar quality, but...

Anyway, I think with this one we have come to the conclusion that sci-fi is not everyone's cup of tea.   The writing could have been better, characters could have been developed more, but the action was pretty good. At least I think that's what has happened here. I don't want to read through this thread just to double check.

Btw, for anyone who find it discouraging that this one got made when there are other better scripts out there by pre-pro/amateur/newbie writers, I can tell you that there are some really sucky scripts out there that somehow made it to film. Horror is my one of my favorite genres and I try to read a lot of them. I've read some that I can honestly say, I was totally amazed it made it to the screen.

What do you guys want to discuss next about this script?

Quoted from Grandma Bear What do you guys want to discuss next about this script?

Let's try to imagine who's gonna play who hehe. I still can't find the TZ episode on youtube.

Pia, i read a horror script, Drag me to hell by Ivan & Sam Raimi, that SUCKED. I love horror but somehow i can't find a decent film out there anymore. Bring the Farm dammit.

Cheers
Nik

I think this has been great!! Especially for me.


I see what you’re saying, Breanne and it’s difficult to come across or say what you really want to say from the ‘typed’ word. Kind of like that little, but important difference between script and movie. We really ought to sit down and talk some day. Fighting with all I can to not write this big, I can’t believe you, lol, you gave me the definition that’s classic, lol. The TEAM Another Writer comment was an inside joke for myself, I have this love-affair for pigeonholes, they’re ridiculous sometimes – hockey mom, nascar dad what does that even mean, lol. Yeah, we’re all one team.  

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/format

2.     the general physical appearance of a book, magazine, or newspaper, such as the typeface, binding, quality of paper, margins, etc.



All I keep thinking though is what are people comparing it too. I mean I definitely don’t think it’s perfect, like fast flow and great character development, but I’m I like what are you comparing it too that that’s something attainable, and done a lot. I know some of you don’t want to sound like Hollywood outsiders, you think I want to sound like a sheep, like I only like it because it’s getting produced. It's way cooler to rage against the machine, lol. I just can’t confidently read this script and say it’ll never be as good as Minority Report (which I loved) because though I’ve seen Minority Report, I never read the script. To me from script to screen is a process that can make or break the film.


I will say though that Minority Report had a great premise, as does this Countdown, for the record I don’t like that title either, but I see why they’re using.

I think Mr. Z hit it on the head when he explained a good premise, a lot of it is a matter of taste. I what makes a good premise is incorporating you’re hook or most interesting thing in you’re story in the premise.


Like, ‘The Thing’ mentions a shape-shifting alien that takes the form of its victims. Now, I think and fear that some writer’s won’t want to expose this piece of information out of some fear that the audience or reader won’t have nothing to look forward to, like it’s my biggest twist or what not, but it’s the most interesting thing it’ll be what sell the story.


I don’t Pia, seven pages is the most we’ve had, is it about time to wrap it up. I know we shot up there pretty quick, but I’m eager, having a better feeling of where people are coming from after being lost in translation a little, to see what people pick and think of the next ‘unproduced’ script.


Oh, and I didn't know format was so taboo, someone should write a horror about it.
Ta,