Quoted from Murphy Dreamscale, I have made my point clear enough, if you cannot understand it then you obviously have a problem, not me. Why you insist on keep coming back with silly claims, taking my words out of context is a puzzle. In the context of this thread, and Pia's question,  pro script is a script that is deemed good enough to be sold, or at least get mentioned on the black list. I am talking about specs here, primarily because this is what is important to me. I have never, not once, suggested that a pro script only becomes a pro script when it is sold. My logic is clear on this, A spec will only get sold if it is a pro script. You keep getting that the wrong way round and there is a fundamental difference. If a SS script gets sold it does not suddenly become a pro script, my reasoning is that if an SS script gets sold it is because it already is a pro script.

Murph, who's the one who keeps taking things out of context?  Your quote here is a perfect example of my fundamental issue with what you continue to say.

You said on more than 1 occasion that there are 3 scripts on SS that could be "Pro scripts", which means if any other SS script were to sell, it would not be a Pro script, right?  But then when I asked this again and again, you came back and said that any script that sells and becomes an actual movie is considered a "Pro script".

You don't see the flaw in your reasoning there?  Who are you to say that no other scripts on SS have any chance of selling and being made into movies?  You can't say that with any certainty.  And when one of these scripts that you say has no chance of selling and isn't Pro level does sell, why all of a sudden would that change your opinion of it?

You continually seem to praise every Pro script out there, and that again is just insane.  There are SO MANY piss poor Pro scripts that have been made into piss poor movies that turn into complete financial disasters.  You understand that, right?

Let's get back to a horrendous Pro script that turned into a horrendous joke of a movie...88 Minutes.  It had the budget.  It had the star power.  It had the big Pro writer, the big Pro director, and international distribution.  And it was God awful on every level imaginable.

I don't care what the actual script looked like on paper, because it was a piss poor, stupid fucking idea that made zero sense and sucked the dried up teets of dead decayed goats.  That Pro script was not better than all but 3 SS scripts, and if you continue to say it is, you're a fucking idiot.

Quoted from Murphy What I get from this thread is that there are people who think they can already write scripts as good as the pros and it is only bad luck stopping them getting sold, and therefore they do not need to improve, therefore the theory of story structure does not apply to them.

I wouldn't call it bad luck.  Not having connections is something else. isn't a matter of luck; it's a matter of knocking on doors, doing whatever it takes to get people to look at your scripts.  I entered competitions.  I answered craigslist postings.  I sent out query letters.

Quoted from Murphy Even if the script is overall pretty bad, you can still see the skill that was used to write it. In fact it often makes it easier to pinpoint where the scripts falls down if it has been written professionally.

There are plenty of movies that do not show any skill in the script department.  Adam Sandler comedies (using the word comedy loosely), the ScaryMovie franchise, the Police Academy, one through thirty.  These are movies that pile one tasteless joke after another.  There's no discernable story, no character development.  Nothing!  But, hey, you give the audience a fart joke and you're gold....

Quoted from Murphy There are very few scripts here that I can say are written as well. if you don't want to believe then fine, if you want to carry on deluding yourself then fine, I don't really care, But I fail to see how anybody can be successful at anything if they cannot at least acknowledge those who are and try and figure out why they are.

There are a few good scripts here.  You just have to look for them

Quoted from Murphy And that really is my last word.

You lie.


Phil

Quoted from dogglebe You lie. Phil

You hope. I cope. Soap, on a roap.

Bobe. Scope, elope!

R ox

Quoted from rendevous You hope. I cope. Soap, on a roap. Bobe. Scope, elope! R ox

Definitely separated by transparent slime.  (you know I dig ya R )

Quoted from mcornetto That's fine Murphy.  Then don't do it.

Lol, that's fine, I won't.

It is nothing more than a pointless exercise that proves nothing and just feeds the fire of delusion.

I can see it now " that must be the pro script, he used "we see"."

If anyone ever wants to really look at scripts and discuss what makes them good then I I'll be around for that. Using a single a page serves no function whatsoever. You might as well judge good directors based on a single screen shot from one of their films.

Quoted from Murphy Lol, that's fine, I won't. It is nothing more than a pointless exercise that proves nothing and just feeds the fire of delusion. I can see it now " that must be the pro script, he used "we see"." If anyone ever wants to really look at scripts and discuss what makes them good then I I'll be around for that. Using a single a page serves no function whatsoever. You might as well judge good directors based on a single screen shot from one of their films.

Many a producer, director, reader and writer that I've chatted with have all said they can tell from a single page.  

Quoted from mcornetto Many a producer, director, reader and writer that I've chatted with have all said they can tell from a single page.

Thing is, if you're a pro, and I've met a few they can. They can also tell within a minute of talking to you. Which is why most of my extra work ended up on the cutting room floor.

I did understudy for a few famous types, er, understudy number three at best. Barstards always turned up! Like sucks. Where is my helmet?

R ox

For those in the thread that are interested in trying to develop "Pro-like" writing, there's an interesting thread here:

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?t=130396

About a dvx regular who sold his script for $300K.

His replies are all worth reading, but page 24 is particularly relevant to this discussion.

He reckons you should read at least 100 of the best pro screenplays and also suggests actually copying out by hand about 36 of them, thus ingraining the way they write into your own subconscious.

Because they'll be different authors, you won't just steal their style, but amalgamte them into your own, but will get used to using language in the way they do.

Interesting theory. Might be worth a try for someone.

Quoted from mcornetto Many a producer, director, reader and writer that I've chatted with have all said they can tell from a single page.

If you get the scripts up, I'm going to test that myself.

Quoted from Dreamscale Pro script was not better than all but 3 SS scripts, and if you continue to say it is, you're a fucking idiot.

You are classy Jeff, I will give you that.

One day you will learn and understand what I am saying, For now though you obviously do not understand, so there is no point making the same point over and again.

Just realise there is a difference between a well written and yet bad film and a badly written script. I am not talking about story, as it the actual story, I am talking about how the story is told, how it is constructed.

You have demonstrated time and time again that you have no interest in the theory of storytelling, of dramatic writing and ultimately screenwriting. in your world it is all black and white, a film you like is well written and a film you dislike is not.

Time for a shameless plug. Tomorrow never comes. It did yesterday. Sorry, I was just ripping off Paul Calf, aka Alan Partridge aka Steve Coogan.

Mine will be up soon. I've had it read by a few types who tell me write Tomorrow Two Rendevous. I might. Once I see how the craic is here after a few scans.

Talent will out, so said Mercury in his heyday. Yeah, and luck, and contacts Freddie. We're not all as talented as you were. Wassat? Oh, it's me, playing Rick Rubin's version of We Will Rock You again. Better than that fucking musical in London. Fred woulda hated it. Sometimes.

RH xo

Quoted from Murphy ...and I can honestly say that there is only 3 screenplays I have ever read by SS writers that would be good enough to considered as good as the worst of those.

What three scripts, if I may ask?


Phil

I sold my script (Dog Pound) to a producer in Toronto for actual money back in May.  And not a bad sum, either.  More than I made doing gigs around Kansas City in 5 months time.  I sold another (Deliver Me Death) as well.  One has been in production, stalled, and is said to be picking back up this month.   I've been paid for both and signed contracts for both.  I no longer hold the rights to either.

I don't feel like an amateur or a pro.  I feel like a screenwriter who found Two different people who liked my work enough to pay for it.  I don't do screenwriting for a living and I don't have the desire to do so, either.  Not right now.   I do it as a hobby much of the year.

I have a script called (Coffin Canyon) that many people (pro's) have been interested in.  I've had offers for it and people tossing figures out for the web-domain.  The script is clean, fluid, and damn good by the standards of Kenny Mcfadden and Stephanie Rogers... Both of whom have critiqued it.  More than 10 pages too, by the way.  Both very costly, but you do get a lengthy call back.  Of course 9 years of polish can go a long ways, but what I want to stress here is I sold Two scripts I spent 4 weeks writing and One that I spent 3 days writing... Neither are a fraction as polished as Coffin Cayon is.  A script that I still haven't sold, yet spent lots of money on over the years for various services and what not.

What I'm saying -- Don't worry about what the "pro's" are doing.  Worry about what you're doing.  Worry about story.  Worry about originality.  Worry about connecting with the mind of a producer/Director/Actor who wants to give you a read.  They're the one's you're going to have to impress.  Not people on a message board.

Quoted from mcornetto Many a producer, director, reader and writer that I've chatted with have all said they can tell from a single page.

As much as I hate to argue with you Mr C. And with all due respect, this is just bollox. I would have serious doubts about anyone who would say such a thing.

Things we can learn from a single page:

That a writer knows how to format a script
That a writer can write believable dialogue.
That a writer can write nice action sequences.

I cannot think of much more here.

Things we cannot, ever...totally impossible to learn from a single page:

That the characters are well rounded and developed well.
That the script has a theme than is echoed in certain key scenes.
That a character is saying something that is a key plot point and references a previous scene.
That the story is structured professionally.
That the story is actually any good and works in the context of the script.
The first 10 pages hook you into the story
And when the inciting incident appears you are prepared to go along for the ride.
That what character say is not sometimes what they mean.
You care about the characters and empathise with them.

I could go on all day.


This second list is for me the key indicators of whether a script I am reading is well written or not, how the action is actually written down on the page is totally irrelevant. Some of the best scripts I have read do not do anything more than simply describe what is on the screen while some scripts that appear to be original and have a voice can be amongst the worst.

These forums are still stuck with the idea that how the words are put onto the page is somehow relevant to how well a screenplay is written and I have to tell you that this is so far from the truth.

Murph, I apologize for the profanity.  I mean that.  I get worked up.  I get frustrated.  I am passionate about this stuff, believe it or not.

So, let just get this straight.  You're saying that 88 Minutes was a well written script that turned into a bad film? Is that what you're saying?  It is a Pro level quality script with well written characters, and a solid story that was well constructed and told?

No more beating around the bush, Murph.  Is this what you believe or not?