Quoted from Dreamscale I agree with you, Murph.  I just don't agree that on has to be a Pro writer to write a good script, and that any non Pro, SS writer doesn't have the talent to write a quality movie. If 90% or more of the movies that are filmed suck ass, what does that say about the quality of the scripts they are using?  I'd say something is wrong with the assessment of what makes a good script or better yet, a good movie.  The 2 do not necessarily go hand in hand.

Aaaarrrgghhhh!!!

I have not said that an SS writer does not have the talent to become a good writer.

I have said that there are fundament differences between a pro script and the scripts written by SS writers.

It is you yourself you claimed you either have it or you don't, not me. I don't agree with that, I think that like all things in life it is possible, with hard work, dedication and motivation to achieve just about anything. And while there are things all of us need to improve in order to sell a spec to Hollywood it can be done.

There is a valid reason for Pia to start this thread, there are some lessons to be learned from reading a well planned, well written script with real characters and a good story and there is valid reasons to ask what the differences are between pro scripts and SS scripts.  

I bet a "pro" writer could post a script here tomorrow, anonymously, and people would view it as just another script from just another member.  Maybe a really good one, but One none the less.

Things like "ING" words would come up.  The 1st act isn't tight enough.  You have too many directions.  You're using too many adjectives and not enough verbs.  

I bet Joe Eszterhas could post Flash Dance under a different name and it'd go un-noticed.  I bet someone would even compare it to a movie they seen in the 80's like it.  To me, if a script adherers to the basic rules of formatting

- As in using the right ledgers and spaces.  Making sure there are no more than 54 lines per page.  And they use the right font and stay away from blatant camera direction --  

A script is a script.  They all look the same or similar.  It's like trying to dicern the quality of a 30 dollar dvd player to a 400 dollar dvd.  It's the content that goes into it that makes or breaks the users interest.  And it's people who separate us from them that make the industry such a tight knit group and members only club.  If people would focus on story and idea above and beyond anything else then there would probably be a lot more talent popping up.  And a helluva lot better movies to enjoy.

Quoted from Grandma Bear I think, maybe the reason I wanted to mention this script is because I feel that there are so many people here that can definitely write (style wise) as this guy, but seldom do I read scripts by us here that are page turners. What is it that our scripts lack? It's not the writing. Is it the failure to really really test our characters? We don't really put them through the ringer. I'm not talking just about horror here. I'm talking about the dramas the comedies, whatever. Maybe the stakes just aren't high enough? I don't know, but I'd like to know if anyone else has any thoughts on it.

Hello Pia, I'm just about to head into the shopping district of Leipzig, but here there's a more relaxed atmosphere and things don't open until ten. It's very nice to be having some really good coffee that's hard to find in Canada and then to open up to Simply and read this, well, it's very fine, indeed!!!

Here, I believe is one of the very difficult tasks to manage. Really creating viable character conflicts that mesh with plot and where actually, the characters tend to often create problems for themselves that they must solve, often making things worse. When we as writers just construct some make-believe problem that doesn't fit, the reader discerns that, even if only subconsciously. Sometimes of course, OK, maybe a lot, a writer starts there, but then they need to keep asking "why".

Gary's last script is a good example. (IACB) Critical comments were made asking, "Is yelling 'Free Pussy' enough to reduce a bride to tears?" If it is, then there's a super chance for exploration of that girl's character.

Anyways, always enjoy these kinds of discussions because discerning that balance in a script between conflict/character and making it mesh into the particular world of the script is what makes for success. It doesn't necessarily have to be logical, but it needs to be logical in terms of the world we create.

Sandra

I still think it has something to do with the transparent slime.

Is it possible that we're confusing pro writing for quality writing? I'm not saying the two are mutually exclusive but I think it's the assumption that pro writers are somehow better is what's causing all the controversy.

Quoted from Murphy To me this is the definition of a pro writer. Whether he writes 3rd rate rom-coms full of plot holes or brilliant, intricate dramas that win Oscars. In the world of Hollywood there is no difference between the two, and usually the writer of crap will get paid the more. Someone who knows their market, understands their craft, can tell a good story and keep readers engaged is a pro level writer IMO and anyone with these skills WILL get produced if they work hard enough at it.

I agree with all except what I've highlighted in bold. I think a lot of pro writers are incapable of telling a good story.

In regards to The Book of Eli, are you saying, Murphy, that in the hands of other directors or other actors, this would've been a better film? I thought the story was just as weak as the film's technical aspects.

What about From Paris With Love? The story is completely nonexistent and Luc Besson has been in the industry for years. Plenty of action and one liners (what the people want, so to speak) but no story.

Let's let a master put it into perspective...



I don't think any writer should strive to be a Quentin Tarantino. There is only one Tarantino. But writers can still take something valuable away from what he says here.

I also don't think anyone who writes a great script will get produced. I was on my first music video set on Sunday (my fifth set in total). 6:30am to 12:30am (first time being on set all day). I finally have a realistic idea of just how hard it is to make a film. It's loaded with complications and with that in mind, there's so many other reasons a script wouldn't be produced that have nothing to do with the script itself. So the "right person, right place, right time" mentality has a lot more resonance to me.

And even if that's not the case, a skilled writer still has to work hard to get their script into the hands of the right people and considering how the studios have resorted to predominantly insider deals, that's harder than ever right now (that is to say, for people who want to break into Hollywood; something I have no desire to do).

That said, just because a writer has the skills doesn't mean they're going to "make it." As many writers as there are here who are still learning, I think there's still some who already know how to tell a kickass story. Maybe you didn't say they don't have what it takes but I think you have at least overlooked them.

Quoted from Murphy The answer to Pia's question is quite simple really.... What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros have learned and understand how to write screenplays, the SS writers are still learning. How do we know when an SS writer has become as good as the pros? They sell a script!

LOL. Nah, dude. When I sold my first script, I had no idea what I was doing even two years after writing it.

Based on that script, I was hired to write another script where I, at the very least, had a much better idea of what I was doing. I attribute this to being able to work fast and efficiently on rewrites based on the demands of the producer and being able to discuss changes objectively without being stubborn or too much of a whore. Not because the first script was terrific.

These are also qualities I think are present in at least some of the writers here.

So as before, your views on skill not going unacknowledged, the most significant differences I see between pros and SS are attributed to success, not skill.

Pia, I'll answer your question in a different post as I don't think it's been interpreted as you've intended.

The biggest difference I've seen between the actual content of SS and pro scripts is the action. I think the pros take a lot more liberties with writing action. They're much more descriptive and loaded with onomatopoeias (that is honestly the hardest word to spell ever!). At the same time, they're much more rapid fire.

In regards to the dialogue, I think there's a lot less plain speak.

As for the story and characters, I don't know. When I read pro scripts, they're always of films I've already seen so I find it difficult separating the characters from the actors who play them and the action on the page from the action onscreen.

Admittedly, I don't like reading pro scripts. If I've already seen the movie, I don't see the point. I've read a few of Tarantino's scripts just out of curiosity but that's about it. In any case, the majority of pro scripts I've read are older drafts and they're absolutely awful! I can clearly see why the changes in production were made. Some of it is truly abysmal. Most of all, I take very little away from them and that's not because I resist what they have to offer. More than anything in pro scripts, I see liberties taken by the writers because they came from another time or they knew they were going to get produced regardless.

What separates SS writers from the pros? The pros know how to pitch a script - and I guess having an agent doesn't hurt either.

Quoted from Dreamscale George, I applaud you for jumping in here with the obvious sincerity that you intended.  And, you are 100% correct in everything you said. For those who "know" or "think" they do not possess "pro quality", you are also 100% correct.  You don't, and most likely, you never will.  That's not a knock, either.

Gee, thanks Jeff. It's good to know I've completely wasted the last ten years of my life. For some reason, I was under the impression that after all the positive comments I've received that I at least had a chance. Oh well, perhaps I'll just become a spy and forget the whole thing. Better brush up on my Russian.

And for the record, apparently James is a pro. Did anyone see that coming?

There is a difference between the majority of pro scripts and the majority of SS scripts.

I think people are getting upset because everyone is being lumped into the same pot regardless of talent etc. However, everyone , professionals included, always needs to look to improve, because the second you stop, that's the second you start slipping. Pro athletes train every day for a reason.

I've already stated what I think the main difference is on page 2.

Breaking it down into its simplest form..it's about focus.

Pro stories are generally better focused on the story and, crucially, are better focused on their intended market.

Look at what Pia said about Frozen. She said the name alone made her check it out. She could picture the poster in her head straight away. That's where pro writers are in a completley different league. They know they are making a PRODUCT and they package that product correctly.

Look at how many people have difficulty writing a log-line...is that at least partly because their stories aren't quite as focused as they could/should be?

Right Time/Right Place argument: Fair shout. However, predicting the right time is part of the business. Babz wants Vampire scripts right now to take advnatage of the Twilight craze. Have all you horror writers got your vampire script on the go? If not, why not? Are you looking at what's going to beyond that, what the next matrkeying bubble is going to be? Werewolves, maybe?

I see that the "rules" have come into it again and I'm forced to disagree with GW's assertion that what separates pros is their freedom with these rules. I think the exact opposite. They follow all the rules that the screenwriting books lay out: high stakes, every scene/every line should be part of the story, the scenes should change the "value" of the story, ticking clock, writing to theme etc.

This is a generalisation and I'm talking about genre movies predominantly, but it's generally true.

Style is definitely important, I'll agree with that. The readability of a pro script can only help to sell it.

Anyway, enough. The good news is that there is a lot of talent on here and the regulars are largely at a professional level imo. I think part of the dispute is because Pia is talking about the kind of scripts that tend to get wide cinema releases...ie the creme de la creme of the Industry...there's levels within the pro field as well.

There are scripts on here better than most of the films I see on say the Horror Channel..and they are good enough that I and other people watch them.

There's still a slight gap between that and the likes of Saw etc that get made into wide release films. IMHO of course.

I think that this thread should inspire people to really push themselves to find those unique characters and story-lines and really go for it.

Once upon a time everyone was a baby, unless they were cloned, like me.

They we're pro writers when they were little kids. They probably weren't pro writers when they are at school. They were amateurs, like most of us.

The only people actually qualified to judge writing and writers is God, if she's not too busy. Everyone else just has opinions.

I thank you.

RH ox

George, the quote you used from me was taken out of context...at least the 2nd part.  That was not directed at you in any way.  It was directed at "those" who have continually said there is a difference in skill and talent between a sold script, and an unproduced script.

Murph, you continue to not get it and say things that make zero sense.  You finally answered my question after I went to bed last night, but your answer doesn't compute.  According to you, there are several truths about Pro writers and scripts...

1)  Once a writer sells a script, they are suddenly a different level of writer because they are now a Pro writer.  Pro writers can do no wrong and everything they write is gold.

2)  Once a script sells, it is suddenly on a different level than an unproduced script, and is a better script...actually, all sold scripts are perfect, and perfect examples of how to write a script.

3)  There are only 3 scripts on SS that are potentially Pro level, and therefor, have a chance to be sold and become movies, in your opinion.  But then you also say that "if" any SS script sold, then it should be looked at differently than it was before it sold.

4)  Great writers and great scripts will become Pros and sold scripts just like that, no way around it.  Timing, luck,  connections, education, money and the like all have nothing to do with becoming either a Pro writer or selling a script.

Quoted from Murphy It's screenwriting, there are no skills to learn and develop, no hard work needed, you either have it or you don't and if you don't you never will.

.

I'm not sure how sarcasm you're using here, but I'll assume none.

While I agree that, if you don't have it you never will, I disagree there not being any skills to learn and develop.  I've gone back to scripts I've written and groan at what I see./  I've actually rewritten and resubmitted a few.  I have two scripts I wrote twenty or thirty years ago that I want to rewrite.  I couldn't get past a few pages of them now; they're awful, but the story is worth getting back to.

Writing is like singing.  If you're tone deaf, you should just give up and stop annoying those within earshot.  If you can sing, you need to work at it if you want to do more than sing in the church choir.

Quoted from Dreamscale So...what happens when an SS script turns into a feature movie?  Does it change the talent level of that writer?  Does it make him or her a Pro?  Does it mean suddenly that they write at a Pro quality?

It just means that more people will see your work.  Signing your name on a contract doesn't improve your writing skills.  It does mean that people will have higher expectations of you...


Phil

There are good and bad writers on both sides of the equation.  The only separation I see between being a professional and amateur is whether you write professionally, i.e., it's how you earn your living.  Right now, it's a part time job for me, seeing money, but not enough to make it the sole income.  Maybe I'm pro-am or something.  But, at the end of the day, I think professionalism is better decided by income than quality for the sake of this discussion.

Quoted from dogglebe I'm not sure how sarcasm you're using here, but I'll assume none.

I'm just about the worst person at detecting sarcasm on the Internet but...

Quoted from Murphy It is all down to luck, getting produced is nothing more than catching a break, Fade to White is a piece of genius and just bloody unlucky that Hollywood have not yet discovered it.

That's sarcasm if ever there was any.

How come my scripts always pop up along with sarcasm in these sorts of threads?  

At that point, Murphy was attempting be sarcastic, but since he is not a Pro writer, it's tough to tell what he was trying to say exactly.  Maybe if he works on his writing skills and reads a bunch of old, musty screenwriting books, he'll get to the point where people can understand his point of view, not be be confused with (P.O.V.).

Phil, my question wasn't a serious question, actually.  Just trying to get Murph to stop going both ways with his comments.  Writers can get better, just like archers can shoot straighter and long jumpers can jump longer.