I gotta say. This thread has been fun. No kidding. No stupid religious/political arguments here. We have a genuine screenwriting debate going on here.

But I digress...

A blind taste test is completely pointless. Gonna agree with Murph on this one. Fucking bollocks! No one would've thought of it if this argument hadn't started and thus it stems from a negative place. People can always dispute the results and even if it does prove something, nobody's going to own up to being "proven" wrong. We're a stubborn bunch, after all. Even if that were the case, is anyone really gonna change up their approach to writing? Even their general opinion on the subject? Yeah, probably not.

Either way, whether or not reading pro scripts is a good exercise for writers, for the most part, I've only seen it have negative effects on prospective writers here. Aside from all the arguments that pop up, people get so caught up in reading screenwriting books and pro scripts that they end up not writing anything. A lot of people have said they're working their way towards their first screenplay. A lot of people have said they're not ready. That's not my call to make, even if it's true, but I respect that kind of humility.

But it's a catch 22. No one's ever going to feel prepared to write a screenplay if they already haven't written one and for good reason; you're first script's just not going to be up to snuff. In all probability, no, in all certainty, it'll be the worst script you write in your lifetime.

So just quit dicking around and pop your cherry already! If you wanna research and learn the craft, at least practice the craft while you're doing it. That's the only real way you're going to get better.

And I'm not talking about writing a bunch of low budget shorts for "calling cards." Anybody with a camera can shoot two guys chatting in one location. In fact, you might as well shoot it yourself if that's the case. What I'm talking about is features.

Seems more productive than another patented SS exercise that just makes everyone pissed off and resentful or shrug off even the most insignificant shred of value that comes from someone trying to prove someone else wrong.

Quoted from Murphy As much as I hate to argue with you Mr C. And with all due respect, this is just bollox. I would have serious doubts about anyone who would say such a thing. Things we can learn from a single page: That a writer knows how to format a script That a writer can write believable dialogue. That a writer can write nice action sequences. I cannot think of much more here. Things we cannot, ever...totally impossible to learn from a single page: That the characters are well rounded and developed well. That the script has a theme than is echoed in certain key scenes. That a character is saying something that is a key plot point and references a previous scene. That the story is structured professionally. That the story is actually any good and works in the context of the script. The first 10 pages hook you into the story And when the inciting incident appears you are prepared to go along for the ride. That what character say is not sometimes what they mean. You care about the characters and empathise with them. I could go on all day. This second list is for me the key indicators of whether a script I am reading is well written or not, how the action is actually written down on the page is totally irrelevant. Some of the best scripts I have read do not do anything more than simply describe what is on the screen while some scripts that appear to be original and have a voice can be amongst the worst. These forums are still stuck with the idea that how the words are put onto the page is somehow relevant to how well a screenplay is written and I have to tell you that this is so far from the truth.

So you think the blind taste test will fail?  That we'll pick wrongly.  We'll have to wait and see, won't we?  Unless, of course, you're too frightened to give it a go.

My final post for tonight. I'm sure some of you will be disappoited. And some delighted. Whatever, like I give a fuck.

Read the first page of Catcher In The Rye. Then read the first page of 1984. Or Macbeth. Or Whatever. That's how you decide in a bookshop if you spend your hard earned cash on it. You think Fincher ploughs through 114 pages by Nobody just because you wrote it?

Get a grip.

R

I never said I can tell from 1 page... I said about Frozen for example that the first 10 pages read like an SS script. It was much later in the story it got much better and held my attention and I wanted to know what would happen next.

Quoted from James McClung A blind taste test is completely pointless. Gonna agree with Murph on this one. Fucking bollocks! No one would've thought of it if this argument hadn't started and thus it stems from a negative place. People can always dispute the results and even if it does prove something, nobody's going to own up to being "proven" wrong. We're a stubborn bunch, after all. Even if that were the case, is anyone really gonna change up their approach to writing? Even their general opinion on the subject? Yeah, probably not.

1. This isn't to prove anyone right or wrong.  It's merely to see what happens if we try it. I can't tell you how many times I've read or heard that professionals can tell a professional script from a single page.  And you can hear it too on SR, one edition that pops into my mind is the second Ron Osborne interview where he states this.  
2. Getting people to look critically at a script is never pointless, even if it's one page.

Carrying on from the conversation on the Blind Taste Test thread.

I think it comes down to context, it really does depend what your goals are. Talking purely as someone who is learning to write specs that will get read by the right people then I actually do not think a screenwriter is a filmmaker a such.

Our audience are not not sitting in a theatre watching a film, they are reading our written words on a page. And they will toss our spec into the reject pile unless they get engaged in our story early. Our audience are not filmmakers either, in fact we ourselves should and will know more about film than many of them.

The only chance that a filmmaker is ever going to read our script is after it has passed through the hands of readers, agents and various studio employees. When talking about a non solicited, spec script these are our audience. Of course, this is forgetting we are writing for a visual medium and yes we have to display some skill in writing for the screen. But this seems to take a backseat to good execution of story.

I use the black list as my guide, I think it is the best thing there is for this. I am sure most people know what the black list is but in a nutshell it is a list of the best unproduced scripts passed around Hollywood that year. In order to get on the black list at least five different people have to mention your script.

Many of these scripts are specs, many of those are by first time writers. In terms of writing the range is quality is HUGE. There are properly, expertly formatted scripts with great grammar and writing and there are scripts that suggest the writer has never read a "how to format a script" book. But they do all have one thing in common and that is that they are all well written screenplays, well constructed stories and engage the reader.

I think in terms of writing a spec this is the most important thing to concentrate on.

Of course when writing something on assignment, or producing your own work or even writing a short, there are differences, you are then writing films. But that is a totally different thing.    

Funnily enough over at Script Shadows there is a review today of a spec that has just sold for $1.5m. I am linking it here because Carson Reeves does talk about what made this script stand-out, why it might get passed by certain people and why sometimes scripts do not get picked up.

I thought it was an interesting review and does add somewhat to this debate.

http://scriptshadow.blogspot.com/2010/10/snow-white-and-huntsman.html



The script by the way is here, but not guaranteed to be here for long...


http://www.sendspace.com/file/dt5zev

That's a well written Pro script.

I won't even say anything about all the stuff I normally would, cause it's really well written.

I'm impressed, and I'd say the same whether he's a Pro or some new guy on SS.

Great example, Murph.  This in my mind, is a great example of a Pro script.  I like it.  I even saved it and will read it.  Thanks.

Peace...

And, I liked the reviewer's review.  Very interesting...but I totally agree.  One guy may not be into it, and the next may say, "How about $1.5 Million?".

You gotta believe, baby.  You gotta believe!

Yeah, good points Jeff, and thanks to Murph for the heads up on it.

I've read the first few pages and admit it reads well. But whether the market is there, as the reviewer points out, well, i wonder...

I have to admit, I was the one who'd throw this in the "Pass" pile. It's something I can't explain but the writing style wasn't something I could bear reading as a feature. Maybe it was the over-description.

That's the thing, though. I'm a minimalist. Just tell me the necessary details and move on. If I want a picture painted for me, I'll go read a book.

Just me, though.

Blonde, I hear ya totally...BUT...this dude nailed the writing in a very unique, well done way.  He's a rock solid writer, and no way would I knock him...cause I can just tell.

Lots of stuff that usually wouldn't work in any way..but, damn, I think it works here, within the kind of script especially.

Now that's  a voice, ladies and gents!  Problem is, people will try to emulate it, and they'll fail miserably, which will lead me back to saying all the shit I always say.

Again, seriously, this is really good shit, Murph.  Glad you found and shared it.

I'm not going to go into the question that is the subject of this thread, but I will say that there are way too many variables involved when it comes to getting a script picked up, and they're not all related to just words on the page or how they're presented.

Story plays a factor, luck plays a factor, and who you know plays a factor.  How it's written plays a factor in some circles, but depending on what level you're working on it's not as much of a factor as you think.  As long as it doesn't look like it was written in equal parts shit and crayon, you're probably okay, and that statement holds true a pretty good ways up the ladder.

Quoted from Dreamscale Blonde, I hear ya totally...BUT...this dude nailed the writing in a very unique, well done way.  He's a rock solid writer, and no way would I knock him...cause I can just tell. Lots of stuff that usually wouldn't work in any way..but, damn, I think it works here, within the kind of script especially. Now that's  a voice, ladies and gents!  Problem is, people will try to emulate it, and they'll fail miserably, which will lead me back to saying all the shit I always say. Again, seriously, this is really good shit, Murph.  Glad you found and shared it.

Dreamscale, I am glad you like it.

But, while not suggesting you are wrong, you do seem to have missed the point of why I posted this review and script.

I posted this review because in everything it talked about why this script worked he never once talked about how the words were written. And in fact, reading the first few pages this script goes against much of the conventional wisdom held round here as to what a well written script is. It is overly descriptive in places, lots of blocks of action and the use of the word "we" reaches epidemic proportions. But the review never mentions this once, nor should it, because it is irrelevant.

In the eyes of the reviewer this script worked because the story was structured well, the characters were well written and strong. All the relevant act breaks were hit and action was piled upon action until reaching a climax. In short, this was a professionally structured screenplay.

When I talk about a "well written screenplay" I am not talking about the writing, and in this review nor is the reviewer. He even goes on to compare it to similar amateur scripts and makes the point of saying that this script got all the edges in order before hitting the market when all the amateur scripts he reads are only 60/70% there at best. Again nothing to do with writing and everything to do with storytelling.

A few pages may tell you how someone writes, and therefore give you an indication of their skill level as a writer. Thus someone who writes like a pro is more likely to be a pro. But you are never going to be able to say whether a screenplay is well written unless you read the whole thing, because that is the only way you are ever going to know if it worked as a story. And you are only ever going to read the whole thing if the writer had enough skill to hook you in during the first 10 pages. And this is all about structure, character and premise and very little to do with formatting. (unless of course it is so badly written it is unreadable).

since my reading Frozen started this, I just watched it. As usual, the film is much worse than the script. The script did at least keep my attention, the film did not.

Also, did they try to keep it PG? All the horror elements were totally removed from the film.

Not trying to start a debate, just still saying the script had something even if it wasn't "great" and the film was watered down into nothing....