Thank you also, Led!  Much appreciated.

Wait till they see the "new" Chernobyl!  It will be a masterpiece!

Quoted from Dreamscale Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions like I tried to answer yours.  That's a big help for sure. I think you've actually proved my point quite well...that you're a fucking dickhead.

And this is what you proved.  You were a complete asshole in the small novel you posted, disagreeing with everything I said instead of responding and being a right bitch when you did actually respond.  What was that about taking criticism...?  I hope you didn't say you take it well.

...anyway...

Sorry I upset your little world here, don't worry, I'll be going.  Feel free to talk trash about me once I'm gone.  It'll help you sleep at night.  And you do not just review with no expatiation of something in return.  I have it on good authority that you pressure people into reviewing your script, helping you with your logline (the one you are using for example), and even writing a synopsis for you.

So have it dude...tell everyone here you verbally pummeled me into submission.  You'll be uber-cool!

Dude, I honestly don't understand this.  I have no clue where you're coming from, or what you are trying to accomplish.  Obviously, you read some of my reviews and didn't like the angle I took, talked to a few board members about me, and decided you wanted to start some shit up.

I didn't do anything here to start this.  Of course, I will always respond to anything directed at me, and of course I'll defend my position.

I'm not going to say a single thing about pummeling anyone. Why would I care?  I don't.  It doesn't get me off and it definitely doesn't help me sleep at night.

Back to topic.  You said 2 things about the actual script that you didn't like.  You didn't say anything about what you didn't like (other than saying the dialogue was stilted and forced), or how to improve it.  Within my novel of a response, I asked you what didn't work for you.  You chose not to respond.

If it's constructive criticism you're offering, I'm all for it.  Seriously.  Doesn't mean I'll be agreeing with you, but I definitely listen and take it all in.

What about all your shit about talking about story vs format?  Did you make a single comment about story in your novelistic post?  No, not a single fucking one, dude!

If pressuring people into reading a script of mine means sending them a PM and asking them to check it out, again, I am definitely guilty.  Sorry about that, everyone.  No one should ever do that, huh?

I suck at writing loglines (and synopses'), and have definitely asked for help from people on here.  I think that's what a site like this is all about.  Helping each other out.  Some are good at grammar, some are good at coming up with an idea, some are good at formatting, while others can't write a log to save their frickin' life.

The horrendous logline I'm using now is my own, BTW.  Wish I didn't have to take credit for it, as it's terrible, obviously, but I do.

Finally, I'm not at all surprised you're leaving.  The way you stormed in here made it quite clear what was going to happen.  Be a big man, like you think you are and stick around. Don't be a little bitch and run away...we all must sleep in the bed we make...know what I'm saying?

Man up, bitch and post some of your award winning scripts.

Quoted from AngelofDeath And this is what you proved.  You were a complete asshole in the small novel you posted, disagreeing with everything I said instead of responding and being a right bitch when you did actually respond.  What was that about taking criticism...?  I hope you didn't say you take it well.

Why would he respond any other way than he did? Do you even realize how insulting, derogatory, and inflammatory you were being in your post? I mean if you talk to everyone that way, as if you are some superior being, I can't see you making many friends, you certainly won't gain any here with this attitude.

This isn't a board designed to air hostilities nor intentionally bait people for pissing matches. I don't get the point of your original post either because it was neither a critique OR a review. What it was, as it appears to me and others as well, is that you came in here looking to mess with someone and thought it your duty to knock someone off their pedestal, at least the one you perceived for them.

Whatever your beef, whether with Jeff or anyone in life, you do not confront in a public arena. It smacks of bad taste and etiquette.

You said so yourself, that we are all here to learn from each other, but what were you trying to share in your derisive review?

Not sure what your intentions are here, but the fact remains your post was more attack than review. There ARE ways to disagree that do not involve small minded belligerence.

Whatever you're holding on to man, let it go... it isn't good for the psyche.

Peace,
John

Thanks, John.  Appreciate it.

Hey Jeff,

All right.  What to say about a script that seems to have been studied and dissected by dozens and dozens of others already?  I can't promise because I didn't read through every post, and I have read through a lot of them and I will echo a few things that I absolutely agree with, but hopefully I will bring something new to the table.  If I can't bring anything new, at least you will know whether or not I liked the script, and after 300+ posts, that's probably all you care about anyway.  You're probably sick and tired of people telling you what to change by now.  :-)

First of all, and I just thought of this reading the past twenty or so posted replies, isn't it kind of weird how you have Xavier refer to himself as the Angel of Death, then the Angel of Death comes to these boards and replies?  Sounds mighty strange and I wonder if Angel of Death might have been someone who you didn't give a favorable review to in the past.

Anyway, back to 'Fade to White'.  My overall reaction is that yes, I did like it.  But I liked it for a horror story.  Meaning that I went into the story with the frame of mind that I would have to suspend reality in my mind for a period of time.  Outside the element of horror, and I'm sure you already know this or have been told by other people (probably by annoying dramatic writers) that a lot of the logic wouldn't hold up in reality, the screenplay would have had a lot more problems.

I am not a horror fan at all.  (Actually, I'm probably more one of those annoying dramatic writers I was just talking about than anything, :-)  ).  But I used to be.  As a teenager, I didn't love anything more than scary movies and King books.  So I'd like to think of myself as someone who's still open to a pretty good horror story and can judge them just as good as anybody else.

I think almost every horror movie out there right now is exactly the same.  There are a select few that rise above the others, however.  For me, Fade to White would have to be in the category that are a head above the rest.  Yes, there are elements to it that are similar to other films I've seen (or read), and it does have some of the same characters as other horror stories, but I think there's enough intelligence and hard work put into this script that does make it stand out among others.

Your writing was very good and descriptive.  I loved the imagery in it.  (The feel of the mountain setting, descriptions of the beautiful houses, the blood pooling on the floor with the milk, etc.)  In fact, the milk and blood together could be a very good use of foreshadowing... a lot of red mixed with white later on in the story.

I thought it started getting a little clustered at the Horny Toad, though.  I found myself having to go back and read over a few times who's who and what's what.  I think it's getting very confusing because you have a character named Johnny, but he's only ever referred to in dialogue as McD.  It made me think there's an extra person there.  Remember, you might have introduced us to him as Johnny McDermont, but you introduced to seven people at the same time.  There's no way me as a reader is going to remember everybody's first and last name.  And, to an audience member, they're never going to know that McD's real name is Johnny, so in the future, when shit's going down, somebody refers to him as Johnny, the audience is going to say 'why are they calling him Johnny?  His name's McD'.

In fact, cutting down the use of nicknames throughout the entire script would have quite a lot of benefits for the story, especially dialog-wise, which I'm about to get into right now.

I don't know about Bobby calling Jill 'JJ' on pg. 70.  It sounds more of a special thing between Danny and Carlie, because he called her CC earlier in the story and she's called him D.  They also call each other CC and D later on in the story, too.  

In a script where there's a dozen or so main characters, you give every single one of them, who live hundreds, maybe thousands of miles away from each other, the same exact personality characteristic:  Every single one of them use two, three, and even four different nicknames for somebody else.  With so many different characters in the script doing that, not only does it get redundant and challenging to read, but it makes the dialogue stale in spots.  I think it's all right to have Danny and Carlie do it, because that'll be their personality quip and what makes them special, but to have everybody do it makes the characters seem 1-dimensional.  Find different quips for the other characters, I guess, is what I'm trying to say.  Hopefully, you know what I mean, JB.  :-)

Even though it was challenging to get through the bar scene, trying to figure out who's who, the characters did get easier and easier for me to place who's who throughout the rest of the script.  So I think you did do a very good job of separating the personalities throughout the story, it was just all the nickname calling that I think would be a good thing to go back and cut down.

You've stated in earlier posts what you wanted to do with the pacing.  Slow in the beginning and half of the middle, then fast the rest of the way to the end, I believe is what you were going for.  And I believe you succeeded at that admirably.  However, there were a lot of people who seemed not to have liked the pacing in the beginning.  Me, I liked it.  I'm one of those who enjoy a slow beginning, as long as the payoff is worth it.  Now, I don't like PAINFULLY slow buildups no matter how great the payoff is.  To me, The Exorcist is painfully slow and boring in the beginning.  Eventhough the rest of the Exorcist is awesome and the shit, the painfully beginning is the reason I dread choosing it over some other movies.  Fade to White was not painfully slow in the beginning and middle for me.  Though it was slow, I think there was just enough going on and enough intelligence in the writing to trust that things were going to start happening and the story would get rolling.

I was getting a little annoyed, thinking that there was no purpose or sense to the killing, or having Danny and Carlie as the murderers for that matter, but as I got to the end, or the credits, I guess you could say, the reason came out and I have to say, it was a pretty nice twist that I wasn't expecting at all.  I forgot all about Xavier in the beginning and thought that was really clever foreshadowing to have Danny and Carlie talk about him in the beginning, when I thought they were perfect.  (I'm a whore for foreshadowing.  I love it and can't get enough of it.)

As for the whole idea of the way you ended it, with the credits, then the flashbacks, then more credits, then more flashbacks, myself, I thought it was pretty interesting.  I don't know if maybe there's a better way to format it, because that, for seem reason I can't explain, seemed a little off to me.  But I did like the whole idea of it in general.  And you're right.  I love sticking around credits for any extra features there may be.  (Bloopers get annoying and boring), but I do like it as a story extension.  A nice little wrap up, or epilogue.

Anyway, like I said, compared to all the other horror films and stories out there, to me, this is a head above the others and one I would like to see onscreen.

Well, I hope this helps and, if it didn't, at least you know I enjoyed it for what it was.

Have a good one and I'll be seeing you around.  Actually, when I was looking for your stuff, I saw that one of your other ones is NC-17.  I'm a sucker for those stories, so I'll probably be checking that one out soon.

- Mark

Hey Mark, sorry for taking so long to respond to you here.  As I’ve told you through PM, I’m not usually like this, and I apologize.

Thanks so much for the read, feedback, and maybe even more important, the BUMP!  Nice to see this back near the top of the heap again.

The version you read here is quite old.  I’m not going to kid myself into thinking the current draft is all that different, but there are some subtle changes and there are still a bunch of things I’ve been meaning to change…and will soon, hopefully.

The Angel of Death was a complete and utter duechebag A-Hole.  I actually have a feeling you’re correct about just who this mysterious prick was, but hopefully they’re long gone now.


Cool, very happy you liked this overall.  That’s always the goal for me…to make something “that works”.  It’s always the way I judge movies and scripts overall…whether or not it works.  So, Thanks.

Not sure I understand completely what you’re saying about this not holding up outside of the horror genre…I actually think it does, and I’ve invested a lot of time trying to cross all my t’s and dot all my i’s.  It’s very important to me that things make complete sense and are believable.   Please let me know what you feel doesn’t hold up here and I’ll give it a look or address your concerns.

Funny, about you no longer being a horror fan.  I still am and will always be.  I definitely know what you’re talking about when you mention “dramatic writers”…they and I usually don’t quite see eye to eye when it comes to structure and story, but that’s all cool, right?

That’s a fantastic compliment about Fade rising above all the dreck out there currently, Mark.  Thanks, man.  I really did try and do things differently here, while still staying within a similar story-line.  Actually, I always try and do things this way…write simple, easy to follow stories, and twist them up, do different things, and turn them into unique beasts that will be remembered.  Really happy you see that here.

Again, thanks for the compliments here.  I do pride myself in trying to write very visually and use imagery whenever I can. Colors were definitely a theme here that some saw and most missed or didn’t give a shit about.  Good catch on the milk and blood early on.

The long, drawn out Horny Toad scenes are definitely an issue for most readers…and I understand why.  This is the section that will be getting the biggest, most apparent changes/cuts.  I realize that it doesn’t go anywhere other than characterization and misdirection, and most likely, a lot of it needs to go.

Good point about the nicknames.  I understand how it can be confusing on paper.  In a filmed version, I don’t see it being an issue (and actually, think about how often you watch a movie and have no clue what a character’s name even is.  It always irks me to no end when that happens, so I may have gone a bit overboard, making sure everyone’s name is known…but maybe I used too many names and muddied the waters).  One of the reasons I split the group up early on was so that you could begin to get to know them easier.  I agree that it’s just about impossible to remember everyone’s name in a situation where they’re all intro’d together, unless you write them down (and no, I’m not assuming anyone will do that…other than Ray, of course!).

Another great point about the nicknames with the JJ and CC stuff.  Originally, there was more backstory, which showed why various characters had various nicknames/pet names, etc.  All gone now, thank God!  I will lose some of those references and am actually glad you brought this up here.

Yeah, I definitely hear what you’re saying about all this and it makes great sense…but…keep in mind this (maybe it’s not really stated or understood any longer)…Jake, Lisa, Martin, and Janelle are all bestest buddies in Scottsdale, AZ.  Johnny lives in FL, but was best friends with Jake and Lisa in college.  Megan lives in SO CA now, but was also best friends with Jake and Lisa in college.  Nicole is the only oddball here, as she met Meg in SO CA, and even “converted” her to the lesbo side of the fence (and she’s older than the others).  What I’m saying is that there’s a reason why most of these characters sound alike.  Hopefully, you do see subtle differences, especially with Nicole.  As for Danny and Carlie, they’ve been together for a long, long time, and do truly loved each other.  Up until their meeting with X, they were good, cool, goofy peeps.  As for Bobby and Jill, maybe I’ll have to relook at their dialogue.  They’re actually based on a couple I knew back when this was being conceived.  They were quite the unique couple, too, so hopefully, their dialogue and personalities do sound somewhat unique (if not, let me know!!).

OK, great…that’s what I was hoping for…that as you continued on, the characters would begin to have their own personalities and you’d know who was who.

Yeah, you’re exactly right with what I was after on the pacing.  I always backload my scripts and it’s pretty much how I like my movies.  This one does start off with a bang, and there’s another kill within the first 15 pages, so I was assuming there was enough action and the obvious expectation that things were going to get real ugly, once they start rolling.  Glad this worked for you, Mark.  BTW, I’m not a big Exorcist fan at all!

Cool!  Glad the reveal worked for you.  Others weren’t as happy with it, or the structure, or lack there of.  In the original concept, Danny and Carlie were simply part of a “Killing Club”, but early readers didn’t like it, didn’t buy it, and were pissed about the lack of motivation for all this mayhem.  So…Xavier was born, and a new spin was added.  I racked my brain over and over for a better way to intro him (an earlier intro, that is) but I always reverted back to the way it is still.  Glad the tiny foreshadowing with X worked.  I’d actually like a tiny bit more, but still haven’t come up with a way to do it without worrying about spilling any beans.

The “Missing Scenes” section during the closing credits is a hit or miss with the readers, it seems.  I personally, like you, enjoy when a movie goes for this type of thing.  I think in the final rewrite, I will label these as what they actually are…Flashbacks.  There are a few here that don’t need to be included, but back then, I really wanted to cover all my bases.  The “reason they don’t park in the garage” scene will most likely get axed.

Thanks again, mark and I really appreciate all the compliments.  I to would really love to see this get made…and I am not about to give up on that dream.

My NC17 script (labeled by Don, not me), is my Soul Shadows entry in the shorts section, Key to my Heart.  Take care!!!!

Is this officially the longest thread on SS?  (He wrote, thus making the thread even longer.)

Hi dreamscale I read part of your story but suddenly had to stop.

Heres why?

1. Your dialog was to on the nose at times and made it feel unrealistic at times.

2. From pages 14-19 the whole part was about puke. Literally this whole part was about Jake and his puke. Nonetheless I felt that it was completely pointless to the actual story at hand especially the crazy beginning you had going on.

I say change this part add something else or just scrap this part all together.
peace

Thank you for reading part of this, VA.  I appreciate it.

You are not alone in not liking the story part of the script.  I've been saying for years that I need to scale that back, but never do.  Maybe this will be the actual year I do it.

If you get bored, drop back in and see if your interest increases, as the script goes along.  It is a non standard structure, and you're in a slow part, but it does heat up again and get even more crazy than the beginning.

Thanks for giving it a shot though!

Hey Jeff.

I just saw this pop up on the portal.  I must not have flagged this one when I posted because I never saw that you (or Dressel) replied to it.  So sorry I'm a little late!

Quoted from dreamscale It’s very important to me that things make complete sense and are believable.   Please let me know what you feel doesn’t hold up here and I’ll give it a look or address your concerns.

Damn it, I love reading but I hate how much I read because sometimes stories get jumbled in my head.  I'll have to go back through and take a look at this one again, but I know one of the things off the top of my head was in the beginning, when somebody got electrocuted in the pool, then popped up alive in the water again at an inoppurtune time just to give us a jolt.  My thing with that part wasn't that it was so much unbelievable, because it just could have been a muscle reflex from the surging electricity, but that it seemed kind of like what every single horror movie does by trying to put an extra scare in there.

I'll go through the story again (probably sometime in the next week or two because I'm really concentrating on shorts right now and even reading a feature will skew my work on my shorts.  My shorts are long enough.  A feature will only make me want to expand them even more), and I'll let you know what else popped out at me.

Quoted from dreamscale They were quite the unique couple, too, so hopefully, their dialogue and personalities do sound somewhat unique (if not, let me know!!).

Yeah, they were definately unique and stood out to me.  Actually, in my mind, I don't know if it was just because of the cold climate, but Bobby and Jill seemed to have kind of a Fargo feel to them.

You should have the cops talking to Bobby that Jill's okay, then before the cop leaves, Bobby asks the cop if he could get him a beer.  That thought kind of made me smile for some reason.

I'll take a look at this one again in a week or two.

Yo, Mark, no worries.  I often forget to click the box "Notify of new replies" as well, and it irritates me when I find I missed a bunch of posts.

You're not alone re Marshall "coming back to life" in the pool early on.  As I've said before, in my mind, the deal is that once the power cord pulls out from the socket, which is quickly, the electrical flow is cut off, and although definitely electrocuted, he's not dead.  I don't know for a fact if that's the way it is or not, but IMO, it makes sense, and could be possible.  It's also one of those "horror movie things" as you said.  I hear ya though, for sure.

I actually had an additional scene much like you brought up with a cop going over to Bobby's and telling him Jill was alive, and then Bobby asking the cop to get him another beer, but I pulled it, and will actually be pulling the garage missing scene as well.

Thanks for popping back in!!

Hey Jeff

Just completed Fade. The writing and dialogue are superb, making this an easy read(passive verbs allowed in reviews?). I think Fade could be very useful to you as showcase work for studios looking to hire writers. You have all the tools on display here, and this work is evidence of why many of us writers here at SS look to you for guidance.

There are some problems with the story. In some aspects, my saying this merely reflects different preferences on my part as to what works in stories. But there are some general problems.

The first big problem, one that should be easy to fix, is the bar scene(basically chapter 3). It goes on forever. It's literally like going to a bar, relaxing, having a couple of drinks. Except we're not getting drinks. You even have the guys play video golf. This reminded me of Seinfeld episode where they're pitching their pilot to NBC and George talks about his play about a chef, and they ask him "you don't really have him cook on stage do you?" Or something like that. I love that golf game in real life, but not sure if people should be playing it for 2 or 3 minutes of screen time.

I am really not sure what much of the bar scene was for, to be honest. It really didn't come into play much at all later. I suppose the idea was to personalize the characters a little. I do think that can be done in shorter time. Even better, you have room to create another scene within that space.

One other note, and this might not be a problem. I knew before the plane landed that Carrie and Danny would be the killers. It was telegraphed. But it might not be so obvious in a film, and this could also be a case of me having gotten to know you and your work the last few months. So it may be just that I know how your mind works, not necessarily a bad thing, and like I said, not necessarily a problem.

Ok, now let me get to the killings. I haven't read the reviews...man that would take longer than reading the story! I was wondering if the Xavier scenes were added later? It just didn't seem to mesh with the words, actions and emotions of Danny and Carrie during their killing.

Your thesis is that killing random, innocent human beings can be somehow liberating. For the sake of argument, I will buy into that. And the idea is that Danny and Carrie, otherwise normal, successful people, are missing some ingredient in life that will be filled once they have been "liberated". And that Xavier, a wealthy guru of this liberation philosophy, will show them the way.

Now you've chosen not to explain in any way how they met Xavier. Did they seek him? Was he just aware of their problem and find them? A missed opportunity I will get back to.

So we have a normal couple, ordinary to the point of being boring one assumes, that has agreed to change their lives forever through the simple act of killing for the sake of it. And there seems to be a bonus financial reward of some sort from Xavier.
They have to fly to a chosen location, pick random strangers, and kill them using only tools they find on location. If one buys everything to this point, the killings are a little off.

Let's look at the killing of Jake, which is his second killing I think, but is presented as his first, right? He should be nervous. Not cocky enough to tell him he's going to kill him. I mean, not only are these people not veteran killers, but they really aren't even psychopaths. Not yet. They're people looking for something missing in their lives, and have chosen this strange way of filling it. And doesn't even kill Jake right away, but f@cks with him by giving him nonlethal blows...risking that Jake will yell out. This just doesn't seem like the work of a rookie.

I think perhaps it would seem better if Danny was kind of terrified for most of these killings, but experienced a perverted exhilaration at the end of each. So he would be less talky during the killings. Especially since, without a gun, most of these killings were high risk in terms of something going wrong.

Also, if they are rookies, would Danny really let Carrie do her killing by herself? Man, there was so much that could go wrong. One woman with a butcher knife against two girls.

The ending did not work for me as is...but...I will discuss in a moment how I think the general thesis could be expanded into something that could really, really work well. Let me explain why I don't think it works as is.

Even if you fix the things I mentioned, IMO, this is what you have: a movie about senseless, brutal killings with an explanation tacked on at the end to make it seem like this is not just a movie about senseless, brutal killings. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but I do think that's what we got here.

However, I think you started down a path to something different, something far more unique then that. But because you didn't think of it until after you plotted the script, you never really took that road. Why not take it now?

Right now this movie is just about killings. But what you want it to be about is killing. You made that clear in the dialogues at the end. You have a vehicle already set up for a nice character arc. Carrie and Danny are successful, attractive, in love...and miserable. They have everything in life but need. Without need, life has no sharpness, no edges. There are no mountains for them to climb. They try to fill this emptiness in the way that many do; they ski, mountain climb, dive with sharks, whatever. Anything to make them feel alive. It doesn't work. And maybe they even fear they will lose each other because of it.

Maybe on one of their trips they meet Xavier. He is quick to sense their problem. And he offers a solution.

Maybe Xavier brings them in by degrees to. I believe it's called cognitive dissonance. The idea is you have them commit a small crime. It's small enough that they convince themselves they did nothing wrong. By degrees he works them up to bigger crimes, culminating in killing innocents.

Not saying you have to do all that, but the point is there is all kind of room for arc here. In the end, they become addicted to killing.

You have room for another plot device too. Xavier can have all kinds of motivations. And through this vehicle arrives the hero. You have someone who Xavier makes sure is aware of the killing sprees, and who Xavier gives enough clues to put on the trail of the killers. All one big game, though the motivations of the hero can be pure.

I don't know if any of this helps, Jeff. You're probably sick of reviews on this thing, and have no interest in making any major changes. Like I said, I think you have missed opportunities to add some of those elements. But maybe senseless killing sells. I don't know. I just know where I live, there's real senseless killing in the news every week. Horrible stuff, as bad as fiction. I want a film to be escape. That doesn't mean I don't want killing or horror. I just need it be more than just senseless. Unless it is supernatural. Monsters kill without reason after all!

So while I would love to see you add the features I would like to see in this script, even more I am ready for the shape shifter script! Hopefully you're ready to get going on that.

Hey, Kevin, what a nice surprise.  Thanks for reading, bro.  Totally appreciate it.  What apropos timing, too, as I’m literally in the middle of a “final” rewrite.  As always, I’ll try to respond to all your comments.

First of all, thanks for the compliments.  It means a lot to me.  It really does.

You know (or maybe you don’t know) that you are not alone in saying there are problems with the story.  I also agree that you and I (as well as me and most) have different preferences when it comes to what a script “should be”.  We’ll address these later when you bring it up again.

And again, you and almost everyone agree that the bar scene(s) go on way too long, are way too meandering, and basically meaningless.  Listen, this is a rather old draft you read.  I have revised it several times, but nothing real major in terms of these scenes, but every time I do a rewrite, I tell myself I’m going to knock these scenes way down or out, but I literally can’t get myself to do it, cause I really like the way they play out (after reading this so many times).

Believe it or not, in the original version (many years ago), the initial bar scene was actually SO MUCH LONGER.  IT’s been whittled back a bit each time, but I realize it reads too long and in all reality, most likely plays too long as well.  I will say, as I always do, that this is a perfect example of prose that reads much longer than it would play out on film, and also reads much less engaging than it would appear on film.

First of all, there are 9 main characters in this scene, all interacting with each other in dialogue heavy situations.  7 of them are being first intro’d here as well, and the setting itself (The Horny Toad) is first being intro’d.   2nd, I understand how long dialogue exchanges can read dull, but IMO, these are actually quite visual scenes, when (if you can) envision what’s actually going down here, and how it could be filmed so that we get to meet each character.  I tried to pepper the mundane chit chat with humor and some sight gags, as well as different groups together at different times.

BUT, bottom line, I agree a lot of it needs to go, and it’s being addressed in this rewrite (yes, everyone, it really is…you may even be quite surprised how much it changes and how much gets axed out).

Kev, you’re an astute guy, and you probably do know the way my mind works when it comes to scripts, but I’m not going to worry about you “knowing” Danny and Carlie (that’s Carlie, not Carrie!!!) would turn out to be the Antags.  It wouldn’t even surprise me if you unconsciously picked it up through another thread, cause a lot has been mentioned about it here and there…and the script itself has been up here for a number of years.  I don’t know what you mean by “it was telegraphed”, cause I went out of my way (for a LONG TIME) to conceal this major twist to the story.  There was only 1 other reader who said they “knew”, and that’s out of over 200.

Here’s the deal with the Xavier scenes – although they were added after the initial idea and outline was drawn up, they were part of the very first finished draft.  In every rough draft read I got, every single reader said they didn’t like the fact that D & C had no motivation for the killing.  Actually, the original deal was that they were part of a “Killing Club”, much like you brought up.  It didn’t work for anyone, so I went back to the drawing board and thus, X was born. It’s still a major point of discussion, as most don’t like the late reveal, call it dues ex machine, or just flat out cheating.  Me?  I still like the way it is.  From your comments, I can see that you didn’t quite get the situation here, which I’ll expand upon later.

First though, let me address a great point you bring up – D & C’s emotions while killing.  I’ve gone back and forth on this and others have also brought up that they should seem more remorseful at first, more nervous.  I actually went that angle at one time and didn’t like the results.  It really changed the overall feel and mood of the entire script.  I definitely see what you’re saying, and I have more than considered it, but I don’t think I want to go that direction…completely at least (more on this when it comes up later).

Kevin, you missed the actual reason D & C are killing and also who X actually is, and my “thesis” is not at all what you bring up here.  This has been a sticking point with many, and in my mind, I just don’t understand how so many people continue to miss it. As I always say, in a filmed version, it would be much, much clearer, just based on having visuals, but I see I somehow need to hammer this home in a clearer way.

I think I’d rather lead you to the actual thesis/situation than spell it out for you…then, maybe your ideas will change somewhat, and we can go from there.  I think it would help if you reread the scene “A SKI RUN ON THE MOUNTAIN” somewhere around Page 102 (and don’t worry, those LONG sentences have been fixed up).   The following scene would help as well, and it’s literally spelled out.  Check it out and let me know if you understand and/or feel differently…at that point, I’ll address the rest of the X and killing issues.

Kev, you know I totally appreciate your feedback, and please, never worry about it sounding harsh.  You say that this appears to be “a movie about senseless, brutal killings with an explanation tacked on at the end to make it seem like this is not just a movie about senseless, brutal killings.” – Pretty much, yeah, although I don’t feel the ending is tacked on.

As I’ve said many, many times, IMO, a movie or script doesn’t need to be more than what it’s intended to be…as long as it’s successful in what it sets out to do.  Too many times, scripts/movies get ruined because someone in charge decides it needs to be more than what it was.

IMO, horror movies don’t need to be anything more than a thrill ride…that is assuming, again, that it is indeed a thrill ride.  The problem with most horror movies is that they’re so stupid and they’re filled with such stupid characters who do such stupid things.  IMO, this is none of those.  No one does anything actually stupid.  No one reacts sturdily or unrealistically.  Although it may be a very simple premise, story, and pot, IMO, it plays out completely differently than anything else out there.  The violence is graphic but nothing is over the top goofy.  The tone is dark and brutal, but it’s still peppered with light hearted, actually funny moments.

“Right now this movie is just about killings. But what you want it to be about is killing.”  This is a good point and idea, but it’s really not correct, as I said above.  This was the original idea I had but no one liked it and I even came to agree that it was a bit cliché.

I do like and hear what you’re saying, but that’s not what I’m after for this script.

It all helps, Kev, and in no way am I sick of reading feedback and others’ points of view.

So, go back and see if you understand what you’re missing and we can discuss the other issues in a different light.

Thanks again!!!!!

Hey Jeff, thanks for response. I am about to go back and read, but I want to quick comment while the thought is fresh.

First, on Danny and Carlie being telegraphed. What had me thinking they were killers on the first plane scene was the effort made to make them look ideal, cute, normal. Also, when they looked at the cute kid, this seemed fraught with meaning beyond the idea that maybe they should have a kid. But again, this is probably just a case of my being familiar with your style. I actually had not read any reviews of this before. So when I say it was telegraphed, that is from the perspective of a fellow writer, who also has been through the process of trying to set up a misdirection. Everyone kept remarking how nice a couple they were. I knew you were putting that there for a reason, and misdirection was the likely one.

When the kids at the bar also said they were so nice, then I knew for sure. I was just waiting for it after that. In fact, at that point in the story I was messaging Wonka about her work, and told her I was reading this, and she mentioned she will be soon as well. And I spoiled...I told her I knew who the killers were, the nice couple. This was before they killed anyone.

But just to reemphasize, when I say telegraphing, it was because so much effort was made to make them seem nice. There are no nice people in Jeff stories! Something had to be wrong!

Ok, going back to read end.