Alright, so I'm back~

I read your script, some parts of it more than once to fully soak it all in... First of all this isn't the kind of movie that makes me tick. I don't like new horror movies like "SAW" "HOSTEL" and so forth and so on. They all seem very by the numbers to me. I started reading this one without looking at any of the comments, so I didn't have any expectations eitherway...

When the movie opens up it's almost like a strange Commando vibe. Weird, I know. But I had this strange flashback to Commando... you know where the guy gets mowed down while taking the trash out and then a series of other events with people in Arnolds army days were killed off. Then his daughter was kiddnapped. Remember that?  Well, it might seem way out in left field here but your intro just reminds me of that "ha"  I don't know why, either... Cos' it is nothing like it.  Other than the obscure and strange death of Mr. Patterson. I can't connect the dots.

Anyways, moving on... "ha"

I think your dialogue works for the most part. I will say that it's better than any script I've read so far here. Since being back. That's always a plus. A huge one. For the bulk of the script your dialogue held up and held up well... I don't remember too many painful moments in there. To me, if you hook me here, you've got me until the end.  So job well done.

The story, again, isn't what I expected at all... I was thinking this would be more of a slasher and in turn turned out to be Hostel with a jet strapped to its ass. What I mean by that is you had this "Society" of people who kill just to kill and instead of keeping them in one mode of operation you have them actually going around and making an effort. It works, for what it is.  

With that being said, this is a horror script and because so you need a string of deaths here and there and not just 1 every plot point. Know what I mean? You end up keeping most of everyone around waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too long.  I know you like character building as much as I do, from what I can tell anyways, but you need to cut the chord sometimes.

What this story really works well with is setting up these characters who we "Think" are normal but then come blasting us in the face with the contrary. Know what I mean? We can assume we are all normal but within us all is something different that, put in a situation of crisis, could become just as brutal or even more brutal than the supposed "bad guys" ... Danny was a well written character for the above tones I'm speaking of.

The things, or problems I keep going back to within the whole script though are the following --

It's got this whole twisty and turning thing and we start to pin point it down and then it shifts. That's ok. I like twist, but the Bonnie and Clyde-like leads really threw a curvey monkey wrench into the machine for me. They work on paper and in a "Natural Born Killers" kind of way it would do wonders too, I'm sure... But it's ground covered.

Some, not ALL, of your scenes tend to go really long... and only after I read your script did I find out you have another version of it. I got the 113 page. Now I hear you have a more polished one... ??? Some of your character building should be severed, for instance, Lisa ... Why keep her around or build her?

The ending, with the credits... all the intercutting back and forth was fine by me. I think it was a good way of breaking up a movie that had too much going on in the end to keep up with at times.  You really crafted a workable horror flick here and done so with the intent to impress someone... I believe that the target audience would be more keen on it than myself, but it isn't to say this kind of horror isn't something I wouldn't watch on a down night.

I think the one thing this script had going for it was all the plots within the plot. It had such a level of structure to it that, at times, became overwhelming... It works, don't get me wrong, but I think a great deal of the plot points within the plot points could've been taken out and saved for a follow up.  You have a great hook for a follow up right now, really.  Maybe you already have one underway???

Anyways, good job. Great writing. Nearly perfect dialogue exchanges going on and some really great twist in this one. Probably the best script I've read on the site since I've been back... No, it's actually the best script I've read since I've been back.

Baltis~

P.S. Yep, I'm in Kansas City for the moment. It's a decent city... Well, it's the greatest city cos' it gave me my soon to be wife.  

Hey Balt, thanks so much for your time and feedback.  It is much appreciated.  I’m not much into the Saw movies, although Hostel and Hostel 2 are definitely 2 of my favorite movies of all time (yeah, I know, crazy, huh?).  I’m glad you didn’t read anything before you started…that makes it the way I wish it could be all the time…going in with a completely open mind and no expectations any way.

Commando, huh?  Hmmm, I don’t get the comparison but I’ve always enjoyed a little Commando action.  Love the scene when he’s driving down the mountain…directly “down the mountain”.  Funny stuff.

Thanks for the compliment on the dialogue.  I spent a lot of time working on it to have it come across as real as possible.  I’ve always thought it sounded good also, but many in here don’t seem to agree, which surprises me.  I’m like you…I look for great and real sounding dialogue every time.  When I see it, I’m happy, cause it’s not very often.  Wooden, robotic dialogue just kills any sense of reality in a script or movie.  Glad this works for you.

I’m glad the story wasn’t what you were expecting.  It doesn’t follow any standard and tired horror/slasher structure or plotlines.  I wanted this to be different, and unique, and I wanted it to feel different.  Hostel was actually an early influence, but I changed things up from my original idea of a “killing club”, and went with the Xavier angle, which most don’t seem to follow, and I’m not sure you did either.

Yeah, a lot have commented that after the initial kills, it goes on too long without “anything” happening.  No one seems to like the long bar scene.  You’re right, I do love characterization and I like movies that meander and slowly build, keeping their audiences guessing where things are going.  Although things don’t really heat up until page 50 (where the big twist first comes into play), there are 6 kills prior to this, and a hefty amount of characters intro’d.  Some say it’s too slow, but I feel that on screen, it would play out very visually pleasing, and interesting.  I really wanted it to be almost impossible to figure out who’s going to go first.  Also, as I’ve said before, I like to think of this as a roller coaster.  There’s a big hill we need to climb before we can start the plunge into craziness.  Once we get to the top, things happen fast and furious.

The twisty turny thing is very much on purpose.  It’s a moral dilemma on how you’re going to feel about D & C.   At first, you should really like them…and fear for their lives, as they’re set up to be our main protags.  When we find out that they’re actually brutal killers, and our antags, I wanted each individual to have to make a choice about how they now feel about them.  I think some will continue to route for them, as they’re still likeable and even funny, even though they’re quite brutal.  Others will despise them and may even be pissed that they were deceived into liking them in the beginning.  Either way, though, it’ll be a pull on the strings of each person’s emotions.  I don’t know if it’s really ground covered. Sure, we’ve seen stuff like this before, but I don’t think I can recall any movie in which it’s set up this way and then changes so completely.  You know, NBK, B & C, Scarface, etc, all have main characters who are law breaking, brutal killers, but we know this about them immediately, so there’s no pull on the emotions to make a choice ½ way through the film.

Yeah, you’re definitely correct in saying that many of the scenes run long.  Again, personal decision to stray away from the usual quick scenes.  It’s a different feel again that I’m going for, and it’ll work for some, but other “purists” won’t like it, because they think it can’t or shouldn’t be done this way.  Current version is 116 pages long (I had to make an adjustment to my top margin, and it increased the length by 4 pages).  The version you read is pretty close to where I am now. There’re probably a few mistakes in what you read, which have been cleaned up now.  I agree completely that just about every scene could be trimmed. I’d rather not do it at this point.  If things go where I’d like with this, I’d rather have more than less, and cuts could easily be made.  As for Lisa, along with every single character, I wanted to give them each a life and voice, whether they’d be first, second, or last to go.  Although Lisa bites it relatively quickly, she puts up the best fight, probably, and really had a chance of escaping.

Glad you like the missing scenes portion, while the credits roll.  Wild Things was my influence here.  I think it’s just a great way to keep butts in their seats while the credits are rolling.

Yeah, there’s definitely a lot going on within what’s going on.  But for me, I think that’s the way it always should be.  It keeps things entertaining, and this is one reason why I don’t find the slow parts to be dull.  You are correct, this is the first in a trilogy, actually.  Part 2 is just about written in my head, but has yet to see the light of day on paper (soon…very soon).  X will be flashed out completely in the sequel and Blacky will be our new “killer”…or will he?  Sheriff Hawkins will be back and on the trail, this time up in Telluride.  D & C will have a cameo, but will not play a major role this time around.  It will be more action based, with some really cool skiing scenes (and deaths).  And of course, there will be twists and turns going on.

Thanks so much for that compliment, Balt.  It means alot rot me…it really does.  Glad you enjoyed it.

Thanks again, Balt.  I look forward to reading your next script.

Dreamscale,

Finally finished this and have to be honest, was a little apprehensive before reading it. I thought, "this script is gonna be really good. It has to be."

Before I begin, I always find it funny that fledgling screenwriters, including myself, read and give feedback and harp on things that they themselves are guilty of. Things clearly seen in other scripts but not their own. I, being most guilty for it.

That being said...

I read and reviewed this with the most non-biased attitude I could muster and took notes along the way. I'll give you my general feelings for the story and characters and the notes as I wrote them.

STORY:
Spoilers


1. I think the first 49 pages are wasted. The introduction takes way to long to set up the thrust of the story, which is Danny and Carlie killing the group as repayment to the Devil. This needs to happen sooner or the introduction and conflict of the individual characters, especially Danny and Carlie, needs to be beefed up, made more interesting. The story lost my attention early on and if I were a director/producer/reader would have tossed the script before getting to the meat. The good stuff. I think the story tries to rely too much on the second act twist and doesn't take time to develop the characters or theme. If you take out the first scene, the first 49 pages are uninteresting.

After page 49 is where your story gets fun. Its almost as if there were two writers and the second writer took up on page 50. I actually really liked where the story went from here (and this is where my inital relief of the script not being good wore off) and was excited to discover what the motivations behind Danny and Carlie were. It wasn't until this point I became interested in the main characters. The real problem with this second half is, well, the first half. Because the characters had no depth or personalities up until that point, I didn't care about them. I didn't like or dislike any of them. So I really didn't care what happened to them.

Finally, You need to give the characters a real psycholgical reason for giving up their humanity and goodness. You discuss this reason and just leave it. Like the theme of the story you couldn't be bothered with getting into it.

Finally, your theme doesn't show up until the last bit of dialogue in the end. If the story played with this more as the characters developed, it would help the beginning. Tremendously. Now your theme is there, you state it plainly at the end (I can't remember exactly but something regarding losing your feelings or sense of "being alive" and doing something drastic to regain that feeling). I know most writers don't think a theme is important, especially in horror-type films, but ALL great films, regardless of genre, have a theme either hidden within the subtext of the story or have it out in the open throughout the film. The trick is to not to be too in-your-face and preachy with the theme. But it needs to be there from the beginning to the end, lurking in the background.

If you cut the first act by 15-20 pages, got to the point of the second act and laid your theme behind the characters and the conflict the script´s story would be really good.

CHARACTERS/DIALOGUE
This was the worst part and the biggest turn off of the script. The characters were one dimensional, flat and boring. All the characters spoke and acted the same (for some reason they all spoke in acronyms) I caught myself cringing several times at some of the stuff they were saying and talking about. More than 90% of the dialogue had no purpose. It wasn't funny, it didn't help explain or give insight to the characters and it didn't push the story along. By page 30, we should know enough about each character and the main conflicts between them and within them to be interested enough to keep watching. For 30 pages, the characters did nothing but drink, talk BS and drink.

If the side characters don't have an arc at least give one to your main character. Even if it is just a tiny one.

I think this is the problem with genre scripts/films is that they rely to much on the "gag" and not the develpment of the characters. If you think about the best of the horror films, they are the best because they take time to develop these aspects. Jaws is an example. We become so interested not only in the shark but the life of the main character. It makes it much more intense when this character's life is in danger because we care for them.

Make one of your "group" characters the guy who doesn't like Danny or Corlie. Right away he distrusts them. The others have to convince this person that they are harmless. This is the guy who ends up being right about our characters. Kill him first or last. This is really where the storyline needs to be focused after the group characters are introduced to the main characters. On each other. This would help develop some of your characters.

NOTES:

These are given as I wrote them while I read. I think the impressions while reading are some of the most important.

Please change the logline. I know you think the "script will speak for itself" but no one outside of this forum will read past that logline.

pg2. I don't think a "huh?" response in necessary. Just have him turn around.

pg3. I'm not a fan of using "moments later" in a slug line.
        
The introduction of Carlie and Danny and their discordance is bland. Isn't there some other conflict you can give them?
      
This entire dialogue sequence is very on-the-nose and irritating.

BLACKBOURN
You look like skiers, am I right?

DANNY
Well, you're both right. We're a lovely couple and we do love to ski.

NOONE speaks this way. Humas speak in fragments, improper tenses, with accents. Even the killer on page one had perfect English grammer.

pg10 I'm finding your protagonists annoying. Need to fix their predictable behavior and dull banter.

pg13 I think it is much more effective when you introduce several characters at a time you introduce them with an action that defines their personalities.

Ex: Johnny McDermot, unkept hair, chiseled good looks, hustles the waitress for a free beer.

Something like that. If you don't do this you run the risk of introducing characters that people will forget by the next page.

pg 19 This whole dialogue sequence is boring, not funny and doesn't help the story progress.

pg24 Oh C'mon. Can't you get our characters together another way?

pg 25 "Megan gives a strange look to Megan"   What does "strange" mean? She sticks her tongue out? Rolls her eyes? Give us something else.
          
Instead of having all your characters speak in acronyms have it a characteristic of one of the characters.

pg30 Ok, by this point we should know enough about each character and the main conflicts between them to be interested enough to keep reading. The story hasn't given us anything except for another guy who killed some people in the beginning and a bunch of characters who talk and act the same. This is where having an idea of what your theme is and building around it helps the reader become oriented in which direction each character is pointed in.

pg31 God, if another character tells our main guys how cute and good looking a couple they are (for no reason)...

pg35 Make them crash at least. Nothing has happened up until this point. The first scene can't hold the wieght of the script alone.

pg37
CARLIE
Thanks so much, guys. You're really life savers... like my favorite flavor... buttered rum.

Is this dialogue meant to be taken serious?

"AAA" should be written "Triple A" in dialogue.

Why didn't Danny and Carlie go to their own place if it was nearby?

pg43 Ok, still NOTHING has happened. Take out the first scene and the arbitrary "kill the man in the alley" scene and NOTHING interesting has happened.

pg49 Finally. The problem now is that the characters have been so dull and uninteresting that I don't care what happens to them. I'm only reading to find out the motivation of Danny.

pg51 So far the only likeable character is Martin (this should be your guy who doubts the goodness of our characters from the beginning)

pg107 When did Satan get a conscious? No killing children? Why not?

Oh, and your use of proper grammar and punctuation is a bit "odd". I would only use full sentences and punctuation if attending English class.


So we're even.

Joseph

Thanks, Joseph.  I'll take all your unbiased feedback to heart and see what I can do to make this better for you.

I'd actually love to respond to your comments, but I know there's no reason to.

Love your last line there about using proper grammar, punctuation, and formatting...I'll try and do worse next time for you.  It is really odd, isn't it?

Glad you feel like you've gotten even now.  That's what it's all about, right?

Thanks again...this has been a real eye opener.

Bloody hell!  Sounds like it's all going to kick off here!  Hi, Dreamscale.  It's me, silverwolf.  I've been away for a while but now I'm back and have just uploaded my first feature script so look out for it soon in the horror section.

I don't know what the history is between you and medstudent but I read through his comments and I do agree with some of the things he said.

Anyway, just saying hey.  I hope all is going well with 'Fade to White'.  And BTW, is it actually finished yet?  I personally thought it had some good stuff going for it.

Jeff,

As per your request, I am going to happily give this one a read. I have been genuinely impressed with the depth of response you have posted for lots of features on here, so I am intending to repay the favour. Therefore, I intend to write what I feel as I read this, and will then summarise my views at the end, so, if the views conflict, that'll be why - hopefully it won't be too stilted.

Purposely, I have avoided reading others' views, so apologies in advance if my own comments replicate stuff you have already read, but I feel this is the best way to give you an objective read.

So:

Ok, so, great opening scene - standard for the genre, but well-written. I can feel myself in the scene, and the range of deaths satisfied the requirements of horror killings, for me at least. Tobias seems sufficiently psychotic to murder. It's interesting you have revealed him so early, so I assume - if indeed he's your main antagonist - you're going for a psychological type horror.

BOSE headphones - why? Unnecessary detail, I think. Also, why not standard iPod headphones? I assume it's to say something about the character, or you are using iPod to generalise MP3, but either way, I think you can drop it.

Too generic an opening to Danny and Carlie. You're not straying and seem to be staying safe with gender roles - heard it all before. The moaning girlfriend who just needs that baby, and the bloke who is all blokey, and well, wanting babies is such a woman thing. I hate this type of gender stereotyping, and think it's a bit naff.

There is definitely a '30 Days of Night' similarity in terms of location i.e. the snow. I loved that film, which is probably an unpopular view for those film buffs who "just get it", but I like to like what I like - it's called being eclectic.  Anyway, I digress.

The whole plane scene feels - standard. Standard build-up, standard gender types, standard, standard, standard. Standard after inciting incident and we need something more. Studios - I hear - have plenty of in reserve horror flicks, and I think at this point, we are in need of something fresh. I know you are establishing the characters, but we have nothing to cling onto at the minute - I say we, I mean me!

Ok, I am starting to lose interest up to page 10 - the slugs are not clear with what the time is, although I am led to believe it is day.

Quoted Text DANNY OK, why don't you get out here. I'll park somewhere and meet you inside. Cool? CARLIE Very cool. And you know what? Danny smiles, shakes his head up and down. CARLIE (CONT'D) You're cool too. See ya.

The above quote feels a bit twee - there's a bit too much obvious affection for the two, which feels a little contrived. It's too obvious we NEED to care for these characters.

After a strong opening, we seem to have dived. I feel the jeep was unnecessary - the airplane can be reduced, and we can more quickly segue into something more purposeful.

The constant references to shopping should hopefully have a purpose later on.

Yeah!! I like it - a much needed killing of the tramp on page 11, and the bar description was nice, too. I like how you 'kill' people, Jeff. You write this scene really well, which is keeping me reading in anticipation of the next killing.

Woah, character overload intro in the Horny Toad - perhaps introduce a couple outside when Danny walks by, 'cos I just know we have far too many characters for me to remember at this point. 8 characters in half a page feels FAR too much, I can no longer remember, nor care, who is who - and we even had the rockers intro'd.

Far too much superfluous description - a whole page - which didn't really do the job of putting me in the scene, I just looked and thought - ahhh, that much text.

Johnny gives the cheeky hello to the waitress; however, I have to look at the description above to remember who the hell this is.

Carlie. Carlie, oh, Carlie.  Page 14 reminds me she's an annoying caricature at this point - she's just a shopping airhead, and I hope she's being primed for an offing 'cos she's too weak to resonate at the minute.

At this point, I am struggling to get through the read, and I suspect a pair of eyes that makes decisions may give up at this stage 'cos your excellent use of violence is being squandered with stereotypical group drinking and a weak female shopper - thus, we are left with a characters that we've seen too many times.

The group's lengthy opening dialogue just screams 'getting to know each other feel' - they feel like pawns for the audience, as opposed to people who socialise together regularly.

After far too much description segueing us into the bar, we are now marooned on dialogue island - I think you need to mix and match the two. The dialogue would feel more involving if we had a more engaging discussion - I know the audience, but the lowest common denominator topic sums up the worst of contemporary horror - at least, in the most recent Texas Chainsaw Massacre movie, for instance, they were talking about Vietnam - puking on holiday is just a tad nondescript. It's just lacking some conflict here - these guys still feel like a vehicle for us, y'know.

The more I see Carlie, the more she seems like a fake ex of mine, so maybe you are onto something, but my ex was dull and pampered - so is Carlie. I guess at this point it's good to have some strong feelings for her, so I hope it's the one you are looking for - she needs a good killing.

Page 21: we have so much using of first names, which goes to validate my thoughts these guys do not know each other. They just feel like strangers, who are being explained to us – a little Fisher Price my first dialogue kit, but the dialogue is getting better.

Martin seems to take Jake's revelation well, so I'm hoping this will be explained - perhaps he's assuming it's a joke.

Page 25: it can be lost - it's all drinks, hellos, and nothing interesting.

Ditto page 26.

Martin's dig at Jake re: his attack made the whole thing feel preposterous - I mean, who jokes about a friend killing someone? Also, - and this is nitpicking - the use of "dumbass" from Jake discredits it further. If I am trying to stop someone spilling the beans with my future dependent on it; I would be a bit more forceful - wouldn't you? This is possible life/death sentence at stake, so Jake's response feels odd, to say the least. This arm punching Jake does seems a bit repetitive, too.

Ok, breasts - I love breasts, I also like reading about breasts, but not so much when it's doing nothing for the story. I'm sorry, Jeff, but nothing worthwhile seems to have happened since the tramp was killed on page 11.

Page 31: Again, we have an all too obvious declaration of love (Danny and Carlie) - I think their bond requires a little more subtext. At the minute, we have a lot of superficial displays of love, and it's almost more lustful.

I am on page 36 - and, it's 0049 here in England, so I will retire for the night and be back with part 2 tomorrow.

A quick summary of thus far:

I think you have a lot of stuff that you can chop to this point, however, I am still intrigued by the elusive Tobias.

There is definitely scope for this to be a very good script, but I feel you need to consider losing a character or two at this stage.

I will be back with more tomorrow then - from page 36 to the end.

Andrew

Hey Andrew thanks for getting started.  Any feedback is good feedback in my eyes, so continue to keep it real and don’t worry about offending me or anything like that.

I’m glad you didn’t read other feedback up front.  Best way to go into something with a clean slate.

Glad you liked the intro.  I purposely wanted to jump start things with a fucking BANG!  The long slow characterization that you don’t like is also done this way purposely.  I understand what you’re saying and you’re far from the first to react like this.  It’s there for a reason though…we’ll see if you understand when you finish it up.  Very curious to see what your final thoughts will be, as it’s definitely intended to be taken as a whole.

I think you know that I am not a believer in standard screenwriting philosophy.  I don’t believe that each scene has to propel the story forward.  I don’t feel that all dialogue has to have some big impact or meaning.  I wrote this the way it is for a specific reason…and that’s the overall effect, feeling of everything combined.  We’ll see what you have to say as you get further into it.  Page 36 is a bad place to stop, my friend...things are just getting going.

BOSE headphones – unnecessary detail?  Maybe, but its 1 word, maybe a few if you include the entire line.  It is something to say about the character.  As far as I’m concerned, it’s the only way to fly!  Noise cancelling headphones…very popular, almost iconic.  Not super expensive, but a sign of a seasoned traveler with knowledge and money.

Others have also not liked Carlie.  I don’t get it, personally, but that’s OK.  I think this opening intro scene says a lot about them, and as far as I’m concerned, it’s not generic.  I think they’re a really cute couple, but again, a lot of people don’t like that about them.  Everyone seems to think that conflict has to be present with all the characters.  I don’t agree.  In this situation/setting, no conflict necessary, IMO.

I loved the premise for 30 Days of Night.  Best part of the movie, IMO, was the opening and all the stuff leading up to the vamps entering the town.  Once they got there, within minutes, I felt it went downhill, got goofy, repetitive, etc.  Also, didn’t appreciate the finale at all.  Maybe I’m weird like that…as I like setups and slow builds.  Who knows?

It will get fresh…don’t worry.  I think it’s extremely fresh and different.  Don’t give up so easily.  The feel I’m going for is not anything like standard horror flicks.  IMO, as long as the payoff is worth the ride, it’s successful.  We’ll see if you agree that this ride delivers the payoff.  Remember, the bigger hill you have to climb, the bigger ride you have down.

IMO, the slugs are extremely clear.  I’m kind of old school in my use of slugs.  They’re very detailed.  You’ll see that for the most part, this takes place entirely over 1 night, so I definitely didn’t want to continue using “Night” over and over.  Time plays a big part in this script (as you’ll see).  Many scenes take place at the same time as another scene in a different setting.  My slugs all have a time in them.  It’s night, BTW.  You’ll see lots of CONTINUOUS, MOMENTS LATER, etc.  I realize many don’t like this, but I think it makes everything so much easier to follow.

Page 11 – yes, the 6th kill.  Thrown in here just so you remember you’re in a horror movie, and the horror has moved to Durango.

Thanks for the killing compliment.  You’re in store for quite a few more.

Here’s my take on character introing.  Yeah, I agree, it may seem a bit overwhelming to meet this many characters at once.  But in a filmed version, keep in mind that this is a 5 second shot, and you’re not going to know anyone’s name or anything about them right off the bat.  You’ll get to know their names through dialogue soon.

One of my personal pet peeves about movies is not knowing characters names. Sometimes, even in the credits, no name is given.  I find that to be very lazy and non creative writing.  This is a reason that names are given in dialogue more than a few times.

I can’t agree with you about Carlie on page 14.  I mean she only has 2 pieces of dialogue and I don’t see anything she says as being annoying or caricature-ish.

I’m also surprised you feel that it seems like the group doesn’t know each other.  I’ve spent quite a lot of time working this dialogue to read “real”.  Many have said that they were very impressed with this aspect of the script.  Oh well, everyone has their own opinions, and I take it all in.

Others have also not liked the dialogue in the bar.  Does it go anywhere?  I think it does, but you’re definitely right in that there aren’t any Earth shaking moments being revealed.

I want Carlie to come across as cute, goofy, and likeable.  She’s quirky for sure.  I’m surprised you find her dull.

The whole killing thing in the Cancun story is unclear.  No one knows if Jake did kill the guy or not.  Maybe it’s all a big exaggeration?  What we do know is that Jake has a temper, and can get a bit unhinged, so to speak.

OK, so I’ll await your 2nd half feedback and feelings.

Again, I totally appreciate your time and feedback here, Andrew.  If you read any of the other posts, you’ll see that I always address any and all comments.  I don’t mean to be difficult, but I always want to give my angle on things.  As I said earlier, this is really all done completely consciously. Whether or not it works for everyone, is obviously another subject entirely.

Thanks, man.

Hey Jeff,

Ok, well, I've just given this thought about how to approach - I've decided to continue with reading, and will then post some comments I have in response to your post above.

Ok, so, I intended to post this the other night:

Quoted Text JAKE You're seriously pissing me off.

That just feels a little too on the nose, y'know. I mean, when people speak in real life, they would say that exact thing, but sometimes something you say in real life sounds too obvious on film, and I think the above is a good example. Conversely, do people actually say things like this:

Quoted Text Okay, fine. you either die a hero or you live long enough to see yourself become the villain.

I don't think they do, can you imagine someone saying that at dinner? You'd probably think they were up their own arse, but it had real power in 'The Dark Knight'. My point is that sometimes the two do not tally. That may just be me, but it really stuck with me.

The tyre - I assume due to Machiavellian motivations - is an obvious ploy to bring Danny and Carlie into sync with the group. However, Nicole is starting to stand out to me - and is giving me a chuckle.

Ahhh, Jeff - this was too painful an instruction to the audience, and is compunded by your above post re: your intentions with Carlie:

Quoted Text MEGAN Carlie, you're really funny. You've got a cute way about you.

Will there be a SUPER to inform the audience this is where they are supposed to take Carlie into their hearts? Sorry, I don't mean to be facetious, but I do think that Carlie is being pushed on us. I mean, who tells someone they've got a "cute way" about them in that way? I think you need to give some serious thought to this type of twee dialogue - it just feels too 'leading'. It reminds me when Sales-types end a question with 'Yes?', which is really just a cheap shot at eliciting agreement, and leading us to their desired outcome.

Page 39: I am still - this could be me demonstrating a lack of mental agility - struggling to grasp all of the characters. Megan, Lisa and Nicole, Jake - and a couple of others still somewhere else. Carlie and Danny are there as well. Now, in principle that's not too many characters, but Megan and Lisa seem to be competing for screen time, and it's hard to distinguish between the two. 'Scream' had a fairly sizable cast of similar teens, but they all had some type of uniqueness to them - here we don't. This is just my opinion, but I strongly think you need to get rid of at least one character. There's too many, and it undermines your intentions to create a 'character-led' script. 'Wolfcreek', for example, took a really slow build-up and this was possible 'cos we only had 3 characters, and its languid style was superbly directed. I just don't think you have scope to achieve a similarly slow build-up with umpteen characters.

Another example that I recall us agreeing on was 'Eden Lake' - we just had minimal character focus in the opening. Sure, we had the lads causing a ruckus, but all we cared about was the couple. There was an almost painfully slow build-up, and I assume you are going for that here, but we really need to have a reason to care for our numerous characters here.

Did you see the recent 'Friday the 13th'? It was a decent film, but that film suffered with the unnecessary volume of characters. Without remembering names, but we had the brother searching for his sister, and this was from group 1 - we than had him join group 2, and the chemistry just wasn't there. Who were we rooting for? Who were we following? The romance that developed felt really weak, and the blossoming romance here does for the exact same reason.

Did you see 'Wrong Turn'? We started with the 6 characters there, and potential for too many people - however, there were clever enough to knock out 2 early doors. Thinking about it now, maybe someone here should go in place of the tramp? It may be explained yet, but his role is entirely unnecessary right now.

I know I am breaking my rule (set out above) here, but:

Quoted from Dreamscale I think you know that I am not a believer in standard screenwriting philosophy.  I don’t believe that each scene has to propel the story forward.  I don’t feel that all dialogue has to have some big impact or meaning.  I wrote this the way it is for a specific reason…and that’s the overall effect, feeling of everything combined.

Now, that's very admirable, but sometimes 'rules' or 'screenwriting philosophies' are in place not to accommodate idiots, but because they flow a story. A senseless killing is fine, but not if it's at the expense of what you are trying to achieve. For example, 'American Psycho' is a perfect example of successfully placing a senseless and expendable scene - you remember Patrick killing the tramp? Take that scene out, and we do not lose anything at all, just one 'murder' - depending how you view that narrative, but that's another thread - yet it was entertaining. Did that scene inspire you for page 11?

Back to the story:

Again, Carlie is demonstrating a limited range - all I have seen from her so far: shopping, martinis and I love yous. Your comment above regarding her cutesy value gives me insight to why you are doing it, but does that make her a compelling character? 100% no. She requires major work at this point. Apologies in advance if she suddenly grows a pair, but at this stage, I am thinking it unlikely.

When I read a produced script, I can just 'feel' the character, I can just sense something within them that they are going somewhere or doing something - Carlie feels merely like she's being set as a lamb to slaughter. My complaints regarding Carlie appear to be bordering on the irrational now, but she's a major character and she just reminds me of the girls who died in the tanning booth in 'Final Destination 3' - that's who I picture, but without the repulsive self-love. Point being - she's coming across as an airhead. What does she do? She's a wife to a doctor, but what else? She wants a baby, but why? I just don't know anything substantial about her. The only information I have suggests she's a female stereotype - where's her steel?

Just wanted to note following typo:

Quoted Text It lifts and drops, makes it's way towards a neighbors house, three doors down.

It's should be its.

This is a great execution of what I feel you are doing with a lot of what I called your "twee dialogue", but here it's excellent:

Quoted Text JOHNNY Hey, open your eyes. JANELLE Huh? JOHNNY I want to see those beautiful eyes of yours. Janelle giggles, smiles. She looks directly into Johnny's eyes. JOHNNY (CONT'D) There we are. Your eyes are almost unreal...seriously. Just beautiful...

That was very nice.

Serious question, Jeff - are you stubborn? Can you objectively read the dialogue in the bar - which is resurfacing - and agree that it isn't pointless? I know, you are avoiding 'rules' or 'standard practice', but I think you are isolating your reader. I love this type of film, but you are losing me. 'Hostel' was able to build slowly, and yet in 40 minutes we had started to see real danger - here we are labouring over characters. There is a reason that films of this ilk tend to be in the 90-minute range. I am sorry to say, Jeff, but this is not fresh. We have Jake appearing from nowhere to scare a girl in the house, we have the doomed relationship (Johnny and Janelle) and we have the 'baby' scenario with our protagonists - for good measure, we also have a subplot of Jake possibly being a murderer, and therein is the reason we have too much dialogue. Quite simply, YOU NEED this setup to facilitate your multitude of arcs.

I sincerely hope you get this made, Jeff - and I am not trying to put a downer on you, but if this is going to get made, it will only happen once the shooting script has lost so much of this unnecessary dialogue/building, IMO.

Jeff, please don't feel like I am out to get you, 'cos you're a real nice guy, and your dedication to helping others has genuinely impressed me - but, I am on page 48 and 'cos they're are so many characters present, I have stopped caring. Introducing Jill, Bobby and some other guy has further muddied the waters. This is now getting really tough to read. I had high hopes Tobias would be an integral character, and we would get some cool psychological/horror/Hostel-type script, but  we have become impregnated in a 'One Tree Hill'/'House of Wax' hybrid, and I don't think that's what you are going for.

Just as I was about to give up on your script - EXCELLENT, absolutely excellent. Danny is the man - nice sleight of hand, but please, please bring it forward by 10-pages. Patience is a virtue, but don't unduly test it! Nice work from Danny, however.

Quoted from Dreamscale Don’t give up so easily.

Mmmm, maybe you were right...

Janelle - you little Fox. Johnny and Martin being played? We'll see.

This is starting to improve a lot:

Quoted Text Nicole has a drunk, irritated look on her face. She goes into Britney-mode, breaks into song, her hands waving in the air above her. NICOLE Oops, I did it again... She starts dancing, completely out of control. NICOLE (CONT'D) Oops, I did it again. I'm in trouble again...in trouble again! Later...

I can visualise that in one of these films - nice, funny imagery.

I have used up my text allocation, so am posting now - more to follow.

Andrew

and here is the more:

This is like a different writer now - this reminds me Michael Owen, who when he scores is great, but dubious when he is not:

Quoted Text DANNY Everything's perfect, and if you think I look funny, you should see Jake right now.

Now you have me wondering if Carlie is in on it or not - I suspect she is, hence her cutesy approach, I may have harshly judged this script...

I am on the very top of of page 60, and you want to know what I am thinking? Karla Holmolka and Paul Bernardo, so I am now excited about Danny and Carlie

Hypocrite, aren't I?

Page 64 now: The pacing in action is not only evident, but your writing is less laboured. Clearly you are morphing two very different types of film together, and I think this is your downfall at the minute. I think you can achieve the feel you want, and produce an organic script but lose a lot of building without losing the essence of your script. Quite frankly, the first half is largely poor, but since Jake's offing, we have seen a completely different side to your capabilities. I think you can keep the urgency in your writing, which is now evidenced without lulling into the slow approach up to Jake's killing.

Nice killing of Lisa, but it could do with a tidy visually. The thought in my head is that it would be very difficult for a normal guy to murder someone in that way - also, isn't his knee heavily wounded?

Comments are much less frequent now, 'cos you've shifted gears, and I am speeding through this.

Yep, you setup Carlie as a cutesy type to manipulate the audience. Once Danny had murdered Jake, it was very likely, but there was an element of doubt, so well done for that.

Bye Bye, Nicole! Nice.

Officer Jacobs - you know what I am going to say. This notion of being different or creating something fresh is hindering you right now. You have a lot of flab on something that can be very good. However, I get the idea you are being a slave to this love affair with how the script will be perceived rather than consummating your love affair with the story.

This comment from Janelle is arousing suspicion:

Quoted Text JANELLE We'll be back in a few minutes, Marty. You'll be OK. I'll take good care of you, my friend...I promise.

I am now suspecting that she's in on it - I mean, why would she be such a vixen otherwise? Although, Danny did refer to the "other 3" - mmmmm.

I'm not sure about Johnny's killing - what the f**k is that pan made of? You need something a little more heavy duty for that killing, I think.

Oh, and I don't know why, but Office Jacobs makes me think Al from 'Die Hard'.

I was wrong about Janelle!

Now, this is the problem your first half created - Janelle appears to be our character we should be rooting for, but she's lost in the blur of what you created. Maybe it's going to be Martin? This is the real problem you've created for yourself. No amount of avoiding the 'rules' can justify having empty characters who we do not care about. If anything, your script is a perfect example of why they apply fairly standard elements to these movies. You have a compelling scenario now, but Danny nor Carlie are sufficiently strong to carry this movie, and we don't care enough about their victims to sustain what is now a standard ending. Ultimately, at this point, you are a little rudderless - I suspect another twist, but you NEED to address your structural problems, Jeff.

Jacobs is a little too gun crazy - an index of Bush? He needs to calm down, 'cos he threatening the credibility of the scene.

I know what you are going for here:

Quoted Text CARLIE I'm OK, Hun, I just tripped coming down the stairs. Little wasted I guess. DANNY Klutzo!

but I just think that Danny's comment sends you into comedy/horror territory. I would get rid, personally.

Really nice sequence here:

Quoted Text Danny bends down over Janelle, the gun pointed at her. He moves it back and forth, aiming at different parts of her body. JANELLE Danny, don't! Please, don't do it. (MORE) 101. JANELLE (CONT'D) I won't say anything...I promise. Please... DANNY Well Janey, this is it I'm afraid. I gotta tell you though, seriously, I really like you. I think you're really cool. Wish we could have met under different circumstances... JANELLE Danny wait...please...just wait...the others...where are the others? DANNY The others? Well...Lisa and Jake are out in the wood shed...both dead. Nicole and Megan are ups... There's a sickening POP from the top of the stairs, then another one. Janelle SCREAMS again. DANNY (CONT'D) Well, sounds like Megan's dead now too.

Just realised that I have written a lot - wow.

Anyway.

Ok, so, on page 107 we get the tramp reference - I am hoping you give me something good for the missing Tobias.

So, I am complete.

I think the ending credits are visually very cool - but I do not think you have made best use of Xavier and Tobias. It seems to me that you need to reorganise the revelation 'cos we have one loose reference to an Xavier at the beginning - that's it, right?

The ending is a little confusing but this is due to your overly languid exposition during the script - to maximise the impact, I think you need to address the structural problems. The huge lull in action from pages 11 through late 40s is a fantastic opportunity to address this.

Right, I am going to post this now, and then get to the points I wanted to make, and I can then make my final comments.

Andrew

Quoted from Andrew For example, 'American Psycho' is a perfect example of successfully placing a senseless and expendable scene - you remember Patrick killing the tramp? Take that scene out, and we do not lose anything at all, just one 'murder' - depending how you view that narrative, but that's another thread - yet it was entertaining.

My apologies for butting in, but I just wanted to point out that the murder of the tramp in AP is anything but senseless and expendable.  AP is a biting satire and that scene highlights Patrick's attitudes towards the lower class.  

That is all.  

EDIT: That scene is especially poignant if you subscribe to the theory (which most do) that it was all in his head.

Dressel,

I will only briefly respond to this 'cos it's Jeff's thread - but I did allude to it being open to interpretation in my comment:

Quoted from Andrew Allen Take that scene out, and we do not lose anything at all, just one 'murder' - depending how you view that narrative

I would happily partake in an 'American Psycho' thread, however The point was - briefly - this movie is a "biting satire" that encompassed more than just his attitudes on the lower class. Anyway, I think his treatment of the prostitutes depicts this view better.

The main thrust centres around - highlighted especially during the '80s - this dichotomy of wealth and utter poorness in a societal context and not just Patrick's. PB's insanity is a manifestation and microcosm of society's - perceived - own insanity, IMO.

Andrew

Well, it's been a lengthy response for you to wade through, Jeff - quite the way to spend my Friday evening

I am too tired to now address your earlier comments, and to be quite honest, I cannot even remember what I was intending to address.

In closing then:

Xavier loses his power within this narrative - why? 'Cos we are left with this idea he's just tagged on. To the viewer, I believe that it looks as though you tagged him on to justify Danny and Carlie's rampage. I do not believe it looks like their acts were anything but senseless during the script.

If I was suggesting areas to focus on:

- Speeding/beefing up your establishing characters. I know you want to shift gears, but it's too easy to lose interest.

- Lose some characters. Billy and Jill (was it?) are clearly pawns to advance your plot. You spend a long time to add even more layers to yoru script, but I am sure you alert the police without the additional characters. The Megan/Nikki angle is decent, but I think you could lose one of these characters - maybe Megan, and then weave the lesbian angle in elsewhere.

- Clear up the ending. The notion of people selling their souls and acting for the Devil is compelling, but when we get nothing but the last minute to consider it within the action, I feel it cheapens what you are going for.

I am about done for now, but will have more comments when more alive.

Will just leave you with the one question:

Did I miss something re: page 112 down? It doesn't quite stick with me right now.

Andrew

Good stuff, Andrew.  I don't know what you're referring to on page 112?  Help me out here and I'll respond to whatever it is.

Thanks man!

Hey Jeff, returning the favor here for all that you've helped me with.

Now i don't like to end with the Negatives so I'll begin with those. Now this is a personal taste of mine, I don't like things with extremely slow build-up. Again, since that's my personal taste IDK if it works here. The slow build up for the first 50 (actually 48 pages i think) is something I didn't care too much for at all. Sorry to repeat everything people have said, but just saying. The bar scene-WAY too long with way too many lines of dialogue i think could be cut out.

The twist was brilliant, I'm telling you to have our Protags as the villains, I didn't see coming. I think it was how sweet D and C were but crap dude,great job on that!! Like the best horror twists ever for me! Great kills too, and scares, not to mention it starts off with a bang. The sugary sweet thing between Danny and Carlie, didn't bother me a bit, but I could see how it could be toned down just a wee bit. The kills are pretty cool. Oh and the way you described the house was awesome, beautiful in a sense, but why does it remind me of The Shinning?

Again man i see what you tried to do with the slow build-up. Many horror films do that nowadays and then they get right to the killing, and the action starts. Sorry to give you criticism in this spot again, but the bar scene I found my self a tad bit bored. The ending was good too.

So again man, overall I did have criticisms with it but did enjoy it. Great dialogue and the way you described the kills was awesome. IDK if I'd call it great but it's really good.

Hope this helps Jeff  

Jeff,

The events that are occurring from page 112 onwards (post-Xavier's speech) lost me a little. It felt like some type of outtake, but it obviously wasn't. My question is: what are we learning for the story in these couple of pages?

Andrew